Here's the story:

I'm looking to get into a T-14 school. Namely Georgetown or Northwestern. I will graduate with 3.27 GPA with a very strong upward trend, double major (broadcast journalism and political science) from UMiami.

I've taken the LSAT twice during the school year and applied extremely late in the cycle. 160, 164. Got a bunch T1 acceptances but debating on retaking in June and see how I do. I'd have 6 weeks to study which I've never really had before.

I have two questions: What is the score I need to break into the T-14 considering I ED at places? Also, what kind of advice for employment in the meantime? I would need WE but I am having trouble finding opportunities at Courthouses around me. Where else would be advantageous places to have experience if I cannot secure something at the courthouse?

If you could offer any advice I'd appreciate it.

Thanks

Edit: taking October test.

Check LSN, but with your GPA you're going to need I would say a 172+. Unfortunately that represents the 99th percentile and based on your scores and the fact that you're only going to study for 6 weeks, I would say this is unlikely.

Like to see the willingness to retake and don't want to discourage you, but I think the T-14 will be an uphill climb for you.

This. Probably higher than 172. I assume you're not a minority and have no work experience? If you have no work experience, I wouldn't really have too much hope for Northwestern.

I realize that. A few people each cycle ED with 170 and around or lower than my GPA for GULC. I realize they may be the only realistic shot out of T14. I am Florida resident but I want to be in the Northeast, Chicago or DC. Those options didn't pan out this cycle so the advice I hear is retake.

If I missed T14 and fell into the GW, BC, BU, Fordham realm of possibility I would be happy with that.

I should note I haven't done much studying at all for either LSAT and 6 weeks may not be enough but I plan on giving it a shot.

Good to know. Northwestern was always the dream I just royally screwed my GPA early on and lost it before I knew this is what I wanted to do. GULC is the more likely goal (if I get the score).

I'll never try to talk anyone out of retaking in hopes of landing a T-14. I still think you're going to need a 172 to have a decent chance at GULC, but maybe some studying will really get you on the right track. Best of luck.

The best advice is to apply as early as possible and try to hit at least 172 on your retake. My stats are 172, 3.26...only T-14 acceptance thus far is NW (including about 6 waitlists). I do have some solid work experience but I applied late (first week of January). I would hold off on that test until you are hitting the 170s consistently if the T-14 is your goal. Good luck

Yeah, if you've already taken the test twice and you haven't made significant progress on practice tests, you might want to skip the June test and take more time to prepare. Downside would be that you probably couldn't ED then since you wouldn't have your LSAT results.

You could always work for 2 or 3 years and then apply to NU with a 170.

This isn't true. I applied ED to NU with an October score. You just won't find out your score until ~2-3 weeks before the ED deadline, so you better be damn ready with the rest of your info to send in your app ASAP (I sent mine in within 2 days after receiving my score).

I had a 2.8/176/1 year WE and got into both NU and GULC (ETA: I also took the LSAT 3 times). I think a mid-170s range should put you in a good position, numbers wise since your GPA is quite a bit higher than mine.

With that said, I have a few questions before I can give you good advice:
- Do you have work experience?
- Are you willing to get a FT job, if not, and study for the LSAT for October while working?
- How did you study for your last 2 LSATs? What prep have you already done?
- How do you plan on studying for your last one?

6 weeks is not enough to make a 10 point jump, especially because once you get closer to the 170 range it will be harder to improve because you'll be working on more minute details (timing, comfort with testing conditions, habitual problems with the way you address certain questions).

If you REALLY want NU, your best bet is to start preparing now AS IF you're taking the June test, but be willing to cancel and take the October if you're not PTing regularly between the 173-180 range by the test date. It's really hard to get a fourth shot at the LSAT now that they've changed the policy, and if you get another 16X score, your chances at NU and GULC are slim to none.

I appreciate the advice everyone. Georgetown is my goal and will work to hit that number which I have before on some practice tests. If nothing else, a raise in my score could better the offers from other schools.

I would be afraid to get away from school for too long because I hear stories of people not going back.

If I don't hit the score I need, my back up plan is UF this fall with a scholarship. I plan on paying the deposit(s) until the results are posted. I'm in state so it is cheap as it stands now, I was just looking to make a break from here.

Another question: let's say I apply to schools I previously got accepted to (Emory, Illinois, or W&L) but didn't get much or any money from, would they be willing to sweeten the offer (given my score has a marked improvement and I apply in October) if I previously snubbed them at virtually sticker?

Dude, bro. DO NOT just go to UF without trying to reapply (unless you have a full scholly and don't expect to make more than maybe $40-90K after graduation). I cannot stress to you enough how much you can change your employment prospects by just waiting a year and reapplying with a 17X score.

How long have you been away from school? If you're a K-JD, it's silly to think leaving for one year will keep you from "going back." Unless you land a really sweet gig (in which case, why WOULD you want to go to LS and take on so much debt?) or you're just incredibly lazy (which doesn't seem to be the case), one year is not going to make a difference. If you've been out of school for a while, you're obviously still committed to LS, how will 1 more year change that?

Seriously man, I highly recommend that you wait for the next cycle. I promise a retake is worth it, if you put in the time and effort to improve your score. Go to http://www.lawschooltransparency.com and compare the employment stats for GULC, NU, and UF. only 46% of UF grads have a reported salary, with 13% of that number unemployed or in grad school. Of those who didn't report a salary (54% of the class), 30% are not employed in the private sector.

Thanks for the insight. I have mostly internships at film making studios and news stations (broadcast journalism). Other than that no. I plan on finding a FT job somewhere for the year break and shadowing an attorney who works in a downtown Miami law firm. That is worst case scenario if I can't find something else in the legal field.

For the first test (160) it was cold. 164 was a few practice tests and lessons from Kaplin. I now have Princeton review books (4) as well as 20 practice LSAT tests that were released. I plan on taking as many tests as possible between now and then. I don't have other plans that would get in the way. I plan on taking a test in the morning, then evaluating the errors at night. That is the best way I learn. Also, my weakness seems to be the logic games so I may focus more tightly on that.

If you have any insight for studying tips, I'd welcome those as well.

Ah, I didn't realize that the ED date was so late. In that case ignore what I said about the "downside" and retake in October (unless you are 100% positive that you're ready for June).

That is why I am worried about my options. The market is bad and these schools are just okay.

I am just graduating this may, with virtually 0 debt from Miami (full ride and commuted, not rich). My concern is because I had plans set on LS, I didn't prepare much as far as jobs are concerned so I'm worried I may not get a strong one in such a short time frame.

TLS has persuaded me to retake, I just wanted to see what my realistic options were. If GULC is a chance with the right score, it is good enough for me to hold off. Does anyone know if taking the October test, if I had too, would really hurt my chances? I know I would make it before the deadline but it would be late for ED applicants.

Awesome, it's great to hear you're planning on getting a FT job, NU will love that. 160-164 is a great place to be starting out: it means you have a pretty decent understanding of the test before having really studied a lot. Here are my recommendations regarding retaking the LSAT:

1) Buy the Powerscore Bibles.

2) DO NOT do any PTs. Just work through the Bibles, make sure you understand the tricks and theories behind why certain answers are correct, what you should look for in diff sections, how to diagram LGs, etc etc.

3) Once you've worked through the Bibles, do ONE (1) PT to gauge where you stand. Based on that PT, you should have an idea of what section is your hardest one and what you don't have issues with.

4) Drill, baby, drill! Do practice problems for the section/question types that trouble you. Begin by doing them untimed and shoot for 100% accuracy. Once you have the accuracy down, work on timing them.

5) Once you're done drilling, THEN move on to doing practice tests. The reason why you want to put this off is because you cannot improve without a good foundation for the LSAT: otherwise, you're just burning through PTs that you've paid for without really improving.

6) After every PT, analyze your incorrect answers and the qs that troubled you THOROUGHLY. This should include asking yourself these questions (keep a notebook/log if it helps you):

• Why was my answer wrong?
• Why was the right answer correct?
• Did the writers of the LSAT use any 'tricks' to get me to pick the wrong answer?
• Is there any methodology I can use to combat this sort of a trick on this question type in the future?

If you need an example of the above process, I can make one up, I'm just too lazy to type it up right now.

7) Once you are comfortable with PT-ing under testing conditions (early morning if possible, not in your bedroom, 35 min per section with no breaks except for 1 10 minute break between section 3 and 4) THEN you should try to move on to PT with less time. AKA, move from 35 min/section to 30 min per section. Why should you do this? Because inevitably, time passes faster when you're taking the actual test. 35 minutes will feel like a lot less. If you're used to having 30 minutes though, you won't end up running out of time during the actual thing. In fact, you'll probably still have 2-3 minutes to look back over your answers for all of your sections. In a test where nerves can fuck you up badly, this can be a lifesaver. Even having 45 seconds to put your pencil down, take a deep breath, and relax will help you during the test.

ANYWAY...sorry, really long post, I hope that was helpful. Best of luck from one splitter to another <3

No worries about finding a "strong job". I finished school in August of '10, spent 3 months job hunting, 2 months working in an internship, and then finally got a FT position as an office bitch for a tiny-ass startup company in my area. I had been working for just over half a year when I applied for LS. They don't need you to be working as an investment banker or engineer (though that would certainly be helpful for OCI, I'm sure).

If you're willing to wait another cycle, taking the October test will not hurt your ED chances unless you do poorly. GULC has no ED deadline (though of course the earlier you apply the better your chances are) and NU's ED deadline was November 15th this year. Like I said, just make sure everything else in your application is ready to send off before your score comes out and you should be fine.

Wow, this is fantastic stuff! Thank you! With that approach I see what 6 weeks is not nearly enough. Thank you for breaking that down for me lol.

I'll get those Powerscore Bibles and get to work on that. What kind of FT job do you recommend? I'll get what I can but I'm curious if NU looks for jobs in the legal area or ANY job.

Awesome. Thanks again for the insight! I feel much better about this decision having heard from everybody that chimed in.

^_^ Not a problem!! Like I said, I took the LSAT 3 times to get my current score too, and TLS was a huge part of why I retook/why I did better. I'm glad to have the opportunity to pass it along.

I assume the FT q was before reading my 2nd post, but like I said, it really doesn't matter. Office jerb looks better than waiter/barista, but honestly most schools don't require WE and the only school that heavily favors it (NU) doesn't seem to care how preftigious the job actually is, just that you were self-sufficient and mature enough to keep one.

ETA: about the LSAT prep...feel free to fiddle with it however you'd like. If you never have issues with timing, start testing with 30 minute sections sooner. If you have great accuracy but you're not good with timing, work less on untimed drilling and focus more on doing timed sections/PTs. Another great resource is to check out the LSATBlog's weekly preparation schedules: http://lsatblog.blogspot.com/p/month-ls ... plans.html Also, it might be helpful to keep a study log. I kept one on TLS here and it was very useful for tracking my progress. You can use a spreadsheet and track everything that way!

Yup it was lol Sorry, about that. That makes my life easier for sure though.

Would it be better for October test takers who have taken the LSAT before to have their applications in before or after the results get released? The advantage to before would be that you can gauge where you apply by your PT scores and can get your apps done in September or October, but would schools not look at them anyway until your new score gets released? The downsides include not knowing an actual score to base where you apply and not having an opportunity for merit based fee waivers if you get a high enough score. I know this is early to discuss this issue but since we are talking about the October LSAT...

It's probably not the best idea. Take the OPs situation as an example, he is applying with a 3.2x 164. If he submits his apps to Northwestern and GULC with an October test coming up he runs the risk of them processing his application or putting him in a different, less desirable pile because his original numbers aren't competitive for those schools at all. It's probably better just to wait until October which is still sufficiently early.

@OP, you really really should hold off until October. I know it's easy to say you didn't prepare enough for the first 2 tests and you are going to do better, but statistically your odds of jumping from 160-->164-->172 especially with only 6 weeks of prep is very very bad. I know you believe in yourself and that's great, but do the right thing and bust your ass studying for October or you are probably going to end up with a 166 stuck with a decision of attending a T30 for sticker or a TTT for a big scholarship with horrid stipulations.

Also, WE for the sake of Northwestern doesn't have to be anything legal. You talked about not being able to find courthouse internships and the like but they don't care. For NU's sake basically anything counts as WE it's just a matter of getting you separated from school or a bit and into the world.

October is the plan, I think. I realize the more time the better. I'm working on lining up some job opportunities. Right now, I may do PT news writing for a local TV station and find another one (store clerk, waiter, etc.). That way I can at least stem the tide of what little debt I will have to start to pay back.

+1 - waiting until October is the better course of action here. 6 weeks isn't nearly enough time. And, yes, Northwestern just wants people who've had some real-world experience. Work experience need not be related to the law.

Better to allow far more study time to get a score in the 170s.




It's good that you're waiting until October.

However, try not to load up on low-paying part-time jobs if your sole purpose in doing so is to have less debt later.

That time would be far better applied to getting a higher LSAT score (and the unconditional merit aid it could bring).

Of course, if you need the money now, and don't have another way to get it, that's a different story.