0Ls gunning for Big Law, why not finance?

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TLS_noobie
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Re: 0Ls gunning for Big Law, why not finance?

Postby TLS_noobie » Thu Apr 19, 2012 1:01 am

JDizzle2015 wrote:
TLS_noobie wrote:Houlihan Lokey is a middle-market firm. It primarily works on deals <1 Billion. But boutiques/middle-markets (which are not necessarily the same thing) can work on giant deals as well (e.g. Qatalyst with the Google/Motorola deal).

Oh I see. My mistake... I was only familiar with the Qatalyst deal.


Yeah, and honestly, middle-market/boutique firms can be more desirable sometimes because they can potentially offer better deal flow.

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Borg
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Re: 0Ls gunning for Big Law, why not finance?

Postby Borg » Thu Apr 19, 2012 1:22 am

I'm a JD/MBA in a t-14/m7 school, and I am more inclined to go to a law firm. I guess for me the most compelling argument is that the legal perspective is less common, and if you have other skills you can leverage that down the road. You might be surprised at how many of my business school classmates have expressed jealousy of the law background and career options.

That said, I'm probably going to pick none of law, finance, or consulting. I have a job in banking for the summer, but I'm not that into it. I want to start a company, and I think that's really the only way to find happiness. I don't need prestige and I definitely don't need a bunch of horrible people telling me what to do and analyzing every tiny mistake I make. I have no desire to spend the rest of my life in service to a large corporation or to others who I do not respect, and it seems like a sucker's move to start out in some huge institution to begin with. I didn't put down all this money to be bossed around forever.

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TLS_noobie
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Re: 0Ls gunning for Big Law, why not finance?

Postby TLS_noobie » Thu Apr 19, 2012 1:27 am

Borg wrote:I'm a JD/MBA in a t-14/m7 school, and I am more inclined to go to a law firm. I guess for me the most compelling argument is that the legal perspective is less common, and if you have other skills you can leverage that down the road. You might be surprised at how many of my business school classmates have expressed jealousy of the law background and career options.

That said, I'm probably going to pick none of law, finance, or consulting. I have a job in banking for the summer, but I'm not that into it. I want to start a company, and I think that's really the only way to find happiness. I don't need prestige and I definitely don't need a bunch of horrible people telling me what to do and analyzing every tiny mistake I make. I have no desire to spend the rest of my life in service to a large corporation or to others who I do not respect, and it seems like a sucker's move to start out in some huge institution to begin with. I didn't put down all this money to be bossed around forever.


I understand your sentiment but it is also important to note that firm jobs will pay the bills (and more) until you can get your "sea-legs" and have the experience and money to start your own company. Most biglaw/IB jobs are not careers for people, but just stepping stones to an exit opportunity (especially if you get passed up for partner/MD). Plenty of bankers/lawyers go off to start their own companies (a GS trader was in the news the other day for starting a condom company in Europe....lol).

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Borg
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Re: 0Ls gunning for Big Law, why not finance?

Postby Borg » Thu Apr 19, 2012 1:34 am

TLS_noobie wrote:
Borg wrote:I'm a JD/MBA in a t-14/m7 school, and I am more inclined to go to a law firm. I guess for me the most compelling argument is that the legal perspective is less common, and if you have other skills you can leverage that down the road. You might be surprised at how many of my business school classmates have expressed jealousy of the law background and career options.

That said, I'm probably going to pick none of law, finance, or consulting. I have a job in banking for the summer, but I'm not that into it. I want to start a company, and I think that's really the only way to find happiness. I don't need prestige and I definitely don't need a bunch of horrible people telling me what to do and analyzing every tiny mistake I make. I have no desire to spend the rest of my life in service to a large corporation or to others who I do not respect, and it seems like a sucker's move to start out in some huge institution to begin with. I didn't put down all this money to be bossed around forever.


I understand your sentiment but it is also important to note that firm jobs will pay the bills (and more) until you can get your "sea-legs" and have the experience and money to start your own company. Most biglaw/IB jobs are not careers for people, but just stepping stones to an exit opportunity (especially if you get passed up for partner/MD). Plenty of bankers/lawyers go off to start their own companies (a GS trader was in the news the other day for starting a condom company in Europe....lol).


Yeah, but I've done it before and I'm going to do it again. No value is added here for me, and I hate bosses. Large institutions are horrible.

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dingbat
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Re: 0Ls gunning for Big Law, why not finance?

Postby dingbat » Thu Apr 19, 2012 7:51 am

Borg wrote:
TLS_noobie wrote:
Borg wrote:I'm a JD/MBA in a t-14/m7 school, and I am more inclined to go to a law firm. I guess for me the most compelling argument is that the legal perspective is less common, and if you have other skills you can leverage that down the road. You might be surprised at how many of my business school classmates have expressed jealousy of the law background and career options.

That said, I'm probably going to pick none of law, finance, or consulting. I have a job in banking for the summer, but I'm not that into it. I want to start a company, and I think that's really the only way to find happiness. I don't need prestige and I definitely don't need a bunch of horrible people telling me what to do and analyzing every tiny mistake I make. I have no desire to spend the rest of my life in service to a large corporation or to others who I do not respect, and it seems like a sucker's move to start out in some huge institution to begin with. I didn't put down all this money to be bossed around forever.


I understand your sentiment but it is also important to note that firm jobs will pay the bills (and more) until you can get your "sea-legs" and have the experience and money to start your own company. Most biglaw/IB jobs are not careers for people, but just stepping stones to an exit opportunity (especially if you get passed up for partner/MD). Plenty of bankers/lawyers go off to start their own companies (a GS trader was in the news the other day for starting a condom company in Europe....lol).


Yeah, but I've done it before and I'm going to do it again. No value is added here for me, and I hate bosses. Large institutions are horrible.

So is the pressure of a failing business
I laugh every time I hear someone say they want to start their own business because they don't want to have a boss.
If you start your own business you should end up working for the toughest boss you've ever had (yourself).
You should bust your balls every day until you're successful. If you want to be even more successful, then bust your balls some more

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reasonable_man
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Re: 0Ls gunning for Big Law, why not finance?

Postby reasonable_man » Thu Apr 19, 2012 8:11 am

Why are all of these 0Ls going into law instead of the astronaut core? I just don't get it.

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DaftAndDirect
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Re: 0Ls gunning for Big Law, why not finance?

Postby DaftAndDirect » Thu Apr 19, 2012 8:29 am

reasonable_man wrote:Why are all of these 0Ls going into law instead of the astronaut core? I just don't get it.


wut

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Borg
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Re: 0Ls gunning for Big Law, why not finance?

Postby Borg » Thu Apr 19, 2012 10:01 am

dingbat wrote:
Borg wrote:
TLS_noobie wrote:
Borg wrote:I'm a JD/MBA in a t-14/m7 school, and I am more inclined to go to a law firm. I guess for me the most compelling argument is that the legal perspective is less common, and if you have other skills you can leverage that down the road. You might be surprised at how many of my business school classmates have expressed jealousy of the law background and career options.

That said, I'm probably going to pick none of law, finance, or consulting. I have a job in banking for the summer, but I'm not that into it. I want to start a company, and I think that's really the only way to find happiness. I don't need prestige and I definitely don't need a bunch of horrible people telling me what to do and analyzing every tiny mistake I make. I have no desire to spend the rest of my life in service to a large corporation or to others who I do not respect, and it seems like a sucker's move to start out in some huge institution to begin with. I didn't put down all this money to be bossed around forever.


I understand your sentiment but it is also important to note that firm jobs will pay the bills (and more) until you can get your "sea-legs" and have the experience and money to start your own company. Most biglaw/IB jobs are not careers for people, but just stepping stones to an exit opportunity (especially if you get passed up for partner/MD). Plenty of bankers/lawyers go off to start their own companies (a GS trader was in the news the other day for starting a condom company in Europe....lol).


Yeah, but I've done it before and I'm going to do it again. No value is added here for me, and I hate bosses. Large institutions are horrible.

So is the pressure of a failing business
I laugh every time I hear someone say they want to start their own business because they don't want to have a boss.
If you start your own business you should end up working for the toughest boss you've ever had (yourself).
You should bust your balls every day until you're successful. If you want to be even more successful, then bust your balls some more


You're not telling me anything new. I started and sold a company before law school. I don't need the biglaw money, and I know what I'm getting into.

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howlery
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Re: 0Ls gunning for Big Law, why not finance?

Postby howlery » Thu Apr 19, 2012 10:10 am

0L here. I'd love to work in finance before law school, and have always been attracted to WS/GS/etc. I'm especially horrible in math, though. The highest grade I've ever earned in a math class, which was Stats 1 if I remember correctly, was a B-.

I'm also studying philosophy. Theres no chance, right?

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TLS_noobie
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Re: 0Ls gunning for Big Law, why not finance?

Postby TLS_noobie » Thu Apr 19, 2012 10:21 am

howlery wrote:0L here. I'd love to work in finance before law school, and have always been attracted to WS/GS/etc. I'm especially horrible in math, though. The highest grade I've ever earned in a math class, which was Stats 1 if I remember correctly, was a B-.

I'm also studying philosophy. Theres no chance, right?


If you are a UG and you want to work for a BB the best way to go about that is to have an exceptional GPA from a university where they do on-campus recruiting (otherwise you will need to be a networking ninja and go to places where they do recruit). Math isn't all that hard for IB, but with that being said, you need at least basic math skills. Pre-crisis, UG major didn't matter much at all because the practical skills you would learn on the job and engineers were of high value because of their capacity to work hard, learn quickly, and affinity to math (but BBs would hire majors that would run the gamut, be they english to history, to even art history...as long as you can prove that you can put in the ungodly hours and will be able to follow directions without asking questions). But, now, you pretty much need a finance background to get into a middle-market/boutique and BBs are still semi-lenient when it comes to majors, but they would much rather have a finance person over someone else.

[EDIT] but keep in mind, the market is terrible right now and possibly worse than the legal job market...experienced bankers are being fired and so they are being released into the pool of candidates for other finance jobs making it hard for someone with no experience to land anything.

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Re: 0Ls gunning for Big Law, why not finance?

Postby howlery » Thu Apr 19, 2012 10:45 am

TLS_noobie wrote:
howlery wrote:0L here. I'd love to work in finance before law school, and have always been attracted to WS/GS/etc. I'm especially horrible in math, though. The highest grade I've ever earned in a math class, which was Stats 1 if I remember correctly, was a B-.

I'm also studying philosophy. Theres no chance, right?


If you are a UG and you want to work for a BB the best way to go about that is to have an exceptional GPA from a university where they do on-campus recruiting (otherwise you will need to be a networking ninja and go to places where they do recruit). Math isn't all that hard for IB, but with that being said, you need at least basic math skills. Pre-crisis, UG major didn't matter much at all because the practical skills you would learn on the job and engineers were of high value because of their capacity to work hard, learn quickly, and affinity to math (but BBs would hire majors that would run the gamut, be they english to history, to even art history...as long as you can prove that you can put in the ungodly hours and will be able to follow directions without asking questions). But, now, you pretty much need a finance background to get into a middle-market/boutique and BBs are still semi-lenient when it comes to majors, but they would much rather have a finance person over someone else.

[EDIT] but keep in mind, the market is terrible right now and possibly worse than the legal job market...experienced bankers are being fired and so they are being released into the pool of candidates for other finance jobs making it hard for someone with no experience to land anything.


My grades are decent overall and seem to be on an upward trend as well. I'd be willing to put in the hours and follow directions, sure. Its just that my school's reputation is largely regional, and far from the best in the state (or its region, actually). I'm planning on moving out of state after graduating, so I guess I'd have no advantage on that front.

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TLS_noobie
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Re: 0Ls gunning for Big Law, why not finance?

Postby TLS_noobie » Thu Apr 19, 2012 11:07 am

howlery wrote:
TLS_noobie wrote:
howlery wrote:0L here. I'd love to work in finance before law school, and have always been attracted to WS/GS/etc. I'm especially horrible in math, though. The highest grade I've ever earned in a math class, which was Stats 1 if I remember correctly, was a B-.

I'm also studying philosophy. Theres no chance, right?


If you are a UG and you want to work for a BB the best way to go about that is to have an exceptional GPA from a university where they do on-campus recruiting (otherwise you will need to be a networking ninja and go to places where they do recruit). Math isn't all that hard for IB, but with that being said, you need at least basic math skills. Pre-crisis, UG major didn't matter much at all because the practical skills you would learn on the job and engineers were of high value because of their capacity to work hard, learn quickly, and affinity to math (but BBs would hire majors that would run the gamut, be they english to history, to even art history...as long as you can prove that you can put in the ungodly hours and will be able to follow directions without asking questions). But, now, you pretty much need a finance background to get into a middle-market/boutique and BBs are still semi-lenient when it comes to majors, but they would much rather have a finance person over someone else.

[EDIT] but keep in mind, the market is terrible right now and possibly worse than the legal job market...experienced bankers are being fired and so they are being released into the pool of candidates for other finance jobs making it hard for someone with no experience to land anything.


My grades are decent overall and seem to be on an upward trend as well. I'd be willing to put in the hours and follow directions, sure. Its just that my school's reputation is largely regional, and far from the best in the state (or its region, actually). I'm planning on moving out of state after graduating, so I guess I'd have no advantage on that front.


Just for future reference, everyone will be saying they can put in the hours and work hard when it comes to any job really, but especially IB (and BigLaw, for that matter). I always envisioned BigLaw being similar in this sense but I am unsure if it is exactly the same: but, for IB at least, it comes down to having a high enough UG GPA from a prestigious enough school to land an interview with a BB->then interviewing for an IB position is much different than any other type of interview (or at least for someone like me who is coming from an engineering background). Firstly, your resume needs to be formatted correctly (they are very anal about this); secondly, there are predefined questions that you must know and have rehearsed over and over and over and over again (walk me through your resume; walk me through a DCF; explain EBITDA to me; etc.). Once you've gotten to the interviewing stage, it really comes down to fit, and whether or not these guys think they want to go out for drinks with you after a 20 hour stint at the office. These are some of the most highly sought after jobs coming out of UG and in this economic climate, they are even more scarce than they normally are. It is a painful job that, for most people, does not lead to a career in and of itself, but rather, is a stepping stone to a real job. The biggest take aways from IB are $$$, learning to be responsible and accountable (you must be on call and have your blackberry in-hand 24 hours a day, every day), and learning to burn the midnight oil (although this is something you probably already know how to do if you even got the job). As an analyst, it is not interesting and you are not a deal-maker by any means. It is certainly not a glamorous job (aside from the mad duckets you're makin) and even the money isn't that good ITE. Bonuses have been slashed quite a bit recently.

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howlery
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Re: 0Ls gunning for Big Law, why not finance?

Postby howlery » Thu Apr 19, 2012 11:13 am

TLS_noobie wrote:
howlery wrote:
TLS_noobie wrote:
howlery wrote:0L here. I'd love to work in finance before law school, and have always been attracted to WS/GS/etc. I'm especially horrible in math, though. The highest grade I've ever earned in a math class, which was Stats 1 if I remember correctly, was a B-.

I'm also studying philosophy. Theres no chance, right?


If you are a UG and you want to work for a BB the best way to go about that is to have an exceptional GPA from a university where they do on-campus recruiting (otherwise you will need to be a networking ninja and go to places where they do recruit). Math isn't all that hard for IB, but with that being said, you need at least basic math skills. Pre-crisis, UG major didn't matter much at all because the practical skills you would learn on the job and engineers were of high value because of their capacity to work hard, learn quickly, and affinity to math (but BBs would hire majors that would run the gamut, be they english to history, to even art history...as long as you can prove that you can put in the ungodly hours and will be able to follow directions without asking questions). But, now, you pretty much need a finance background to get into a middle-market/boutique and BBs are still semi-lenient when it comes to majors, but they would much rather have a finance person over someone else.

[EDIT] but keep in mind, the market is terrible right now and possibly worse than the legal job market...experienced bankers are being fired and so they are being released into the pool of candidates for other finance jobs making it hard for someone with no experience to land anything.


My grades are decent overall and seem to be on an upward trend as well. I'd be willing to put in the hours and follow directions, sure. Its just that my school's reputation is largely regional, and far from the best in the state (or its region, actually). I'm planning on moving out of state after graduating, so I guess I'd have no advantage on that front.


Just for future reference, everyone will be saying they can put in the hours and work hard when it comes to any job really, but especially IB (and BigLaw, for that matter). I always envisioned BigLaw being similar in this sense but I am unsure if it is exactly the same: but, for IB at least, it comes down to having a high enough UG GPA from a prestigious enough school to land an interview with a BB->then interviewing for an IB position is much different than any other type of interview (or at least for someone like me who is coming from an engineering background). Firstly, your resume needs to be formatted correctly (they are very anal about this); secondly, there are predefined questions that you must know and have rehearsed over and over and over and over again (walk me through your resume; walk me through a DCF; explain EBITDA to me; etc.). Once you've gotten to the interviewing stage, it really comes down to fit, and whether or not these guys think they want to go out for drinks with you after a 20 hour stint at the office. These are some of the most highly sought after jobs coming out of UG and in this economic climate, they are even more scarce than they normally are. It is a painful job that, for most people, does not lead to a career in and of itself, but rather, is a stepping stone to a real job. The biggest take aways from IB are $$$, learning to be responsible and accountable (you must be on call and have your blackberry in-hand 24 hours a day, every day), and learning to burn the midnight oil (although this is something you probably already know how to do if you even got the job). As an analyst, it is not interesting and you are not a deal-maker by any means. It is certainly not a glamorous job (aside from the mad duckets you're makin) and even the money isn't that good ITE. Bonuses have been slashed quite a bit recently.


Are all analyst positions like that or just those at high-end BBs and such? Ideally I'd be able to work in finance in some capacity before heading in to big law after law school. I don't think I'm qualified to pursue a long-term career in finance.

Theres always paralegal work, I guess :|

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TLS_noobie
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Re: 0Ls gunning for Big Law, why not finance?

Postby TLS_noobie » Thu Apr 19, 2012 11:22 am

howlery wrote:Are all analyst positions like that or just those at high-end BBs and such? Ideally I'd be able to work in finance in some capacity before heading in to big law after law school. I don't think I'm qualified to pursue a long-term career in finance.

Theres always paralegal work, I guess :|


Well, finance is a pretty big field and investment banking isn't the only thing you can do. I just PM'ed you so as not to hijack the thread haha

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Odd Future Wolf Gang
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Re: 0Ls gunning for Big Law, why not finance?

Postby Odd Future Wolf Gang » Thu Apr 19, 2012 11:26 am

So is CONSULTING the MOST CREDITED career? MBB two-three years -> cushy F500 job?

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Wily
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Re: 0Ls gunning for Big Law, why not finance?

Postby Wily » Thu Apr 19, 2012 11:29 am

To answer OP, I didn't consider finance because I didn't major in applied math or econ and my grades sucked. Even though I went to a top Ivy and a lot of my friends ended up in finance, I doubt I'd get hired anywhere they did. I think law schools are somewhat more forgiving of someone with a low GPA than I-banking is.

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dingbat
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Re: 0Ls gunning for Big Law, why not finance?

Postby dingbat » Thu Apr 19, 2012 11:52 am

Odd Future Wolf Gang wrote:So is CONSULTING the MOST CREDITED career? MBB two-three years -> cushy F500 job?

Start your own tech company

At this point, my brother, who is a surgeon with a PhD, says next time he'll come back as a plumber. I think electrician is the way to go.
My neighbor installs phone lines for Verizon and makes 6 figures
I knew a guy years ago who started washing windows at age 14 and stopped working at age 30 because his window cleaning business grew big enough to support his lifestyle

There are no easy answers. Pick a field that you've got some talent for, work your butt off, hope for the best. There are fortunes to be made in (almost) any field, but there are no guarantees in life

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DaftAndDirect
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Re: 0Ls gunning for Big Law, why not finance?

Postby DaftAndDirect » Thu Apr 19, 2012 12:23 pm

So essentially some combination of the following:

1. We are bad at math.
2. We are too risk averse for banking.
3. We are not creative.

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Borg
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Re: 0Ls gunning for Big Law, why not finance?

Postby Borg » Thu Apr 19, 2012 12:25 pm

howlery wrote: Are all analyst positions like that or just those at high-end BBs and such? Ideally I'd be able to work in finance in some capacity before heading in to big law after law school. I don't think I'm qualified to pursue a long-term career in finance.

Theres always paralegal work, I guess :|


If you want to get a job in business or finance, don't go work as a paralegal. You're not going to learn ANYTHING that will be of value outside of the law firm context. If you're looking to gain transferable skills, find your way into a job in a company and not a law firm.

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PARTY
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Re: 0Ls gunning for Big Law, why not finance?

Postby PARTY » Thu Apr 19, 2012 12:34 pm

i haven't read it yet, so here it is:

finance and accounting blow. seriously.

how boring.

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Borg
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Re: 0Ls gunning for Big Law, why not finance?

Postby Borg » Thu Apr 19, 2012 12:49 pm

PARTY wrote:i haven't read it yet, so here it is:

finance and accounting blow. seriously.

how boring.


Agreed. However, I think that everyone in the world should know how to read and analyze financial statements. Most of the bad surprises in business come from accounting.

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dingbat
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Re: 0Ls gunning for Big Law, why not finance?

Postby dingbat » Thu Apr 19, 2012 1:11 pm

DaftAndDirect wrote:So essentially some combination of the following:

1. We are bad at math.
2. We are too risk averse for banking.
3. We are not creative.


"we" chose to become a lawyer and did not choose to become a banker
That's really all there is to it. I mean, why not become a doctor, or an accountant, or any of a myriad of other professions? You made a choice, plain and simple

zanzbar
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Re: 0Ls gunning for Big Law, why not finance?

Postby zanzbar » Thu Apr 19, 2012 1:24 pm

DaftAndDirect wrote:So essentially some combination of the following:

1. We are bad at math.
2. We are too risk averse for banking.
3. We are not creative.


At first I thought this thread was serious, but now I am beginning to suspect successful ninja-troll. If so, I applaud you.

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TLS_noobie
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Re: 0Ls gunning for Big Law, why not finance?

Postby TLS_noobie » Thu Apr 19, 2012 2:01 pm

zanzbar wrote:
DaftAndDirect wrote:So essentially some combination of the following:

1. We are bad at math.
2. We are too risk averse for banking.
3. We are not creative.


At first I thought this thread was serious, but now I am beginning to suspect successful ninja-troll. If so, I applaud you.


TITCR

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PARTY
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Re: 0Ls gunning for Big Law, why not finance?

Postby PARTY » Thu Apr 19, 2012 3:15 pm

Borg wrote:
PARTY wrote:i haven't read it yet, so here it is:

finance and accounting blow. seriously.

how boring.


Agreed. However, I think that everyone in the world should know how to read and analyze financial statements. Most of the bad surprises in business come from accounting.


anyone who can't read a financial statement of any sort is lazy and ignorant.




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