TLS is a mindless echo chamber

(Applications Advice, Letters of Recommendation . . . )

Right about the "ties?"

Yes-"ties" are an accurate, albeit recent discovery by TLS.
64
40%
No-"ties," along with 40% of everything on this site = mindless bullshit
39
24%
I don't know, but "ties" may be overstated
26
16%
I for realz don't know
32
20%
 
Total votes: 161

Lord Randolph McDuff
Posts: 1587
Joined: Wed Jun 08, 2011 4:37 pm

Re: TLS is a mindless echo chamber

Postby Lord Randolph McDuff » Mon Apr 16, 2012 1:24 pm

Teoeo wrote:OP - sounds like you are upset by something. Ties are important, whether you want to believe it or not. Sorry.


Not in the context of what was asked.

If you go to the University of Hawaii, you will have problems convincing employers in Montana that you want to work for them. You will have, however, no problem convincing employers in Hawaii that you want to work for them, just as employers in Montana will not question the "ties" of someone who went to school at U of Montana.

Kitty RC fail.

User avatar
Lawl Shcool
Posts: 763
Joined: Tue Oct 27, 2009 6:44 pm

Re: TLS is a mindless echo chamber

Postby Lawl Shcool » Mon Apr 16, 2012 1:25 pm

I think the telling point is that this thread is full of anecdotes about how not having ties is a big deal while interviewing and not a single example of how someone without any ties got a job in a random city.

"Ties" is the ability to convince a partner you are serious about living in a city long-term. Partners aren't retarded and will see right through anything that hints at the idea that "most people leave biglaw in 4 years so who cares" type attitude. Even though this is true, firms still need to find that 5% of SAs that will stick around and become partners, your goal in interviews is to convince them that is you.

rad lulz
Posts: 9844
Joined: Sun Feb 19, 2012 10:53 pm

Re: TLS is a mindless echo chamber

Postby rad lulz » Mon Apr 16, 2012 1:31 pm

Lord Randolph McDuff wrote:Yeah... ok I think most of you are missing the point.

If you go to a national school, you have options. Most of the posters on this thread go to a national school, and their advice makes a lot of sense for others in their position. You have to sell yourself to the market because A) firms don't want to offer someone who isn't going to accept and B) firms don't want someone to work there for a few years and leave.

But that wasn't the question posed.

Point is, if you go to State U, and spend three years there and a ton of money, employers are going to assume you want to work in that state. I mean, where else are you going to go from University of Idaho? Unlike applicants from national schools, the assumption is that you are here to stay. So when another Minn/UGA/USD thread pops up, chill out. By spending three years in Athens, the kid will have developed a very believable story--because it is likely true-- for why he wants to work in ATL. I know it doesn't apply to you (which is why you all were so wrong on this issue in the first place), but it applies to the majority of people who view this site. People who are going/plan to go to regional schools.

Ties are at the very least extremely overstated. Definite echo chamber effect.

I've heard stories of people who even go to the local school getting burned without ties. Also, I know ND isn't State U, but read flcath's post on the first page again.

rad lulz
Posts: 9844
Joined: Sun Feb 19, 2012 10:53 pm

Re: TLS is a mindless echo chamber

Postby rad lulz » Mon Apr 16, 2012 1:33 pm

Lord Randolph McDuff wrote:
Teoeo wrote:OP - sounds like you are upset by something. Ties are important, whether you want to believe it or not. Sorry.


Not in the context of what was asked.

If you go to the University of Hawaii, you will have problems convincing employers in Montana that you want to work for them. You will have, however, no problem convincing employers in Hawaii that you want to work for them, just as employers in Montana will not question the "ties" of someone who went to school at U of Montana.

Kitty RC fail.

Actually I talked to someone about Hawaii and he said absolutely don't go unless you are from or have srs preexisting ties because it has an extreme homer bias, even if you go to the local school.

User avatar
Ludo!
Posts: 4764
Joined: Wed Nov 09, 2011 1:22 pm

Re: TLS is a mindless echo chamber

Postby Ludo! » Mon Apr 16, 2012 1:34 pm

Lord Randolph McDuff wrote:
Teoeo wrote:OP - sounds like you are upset by something. Ties are important, whether you want to believe it or not. Sorry.


Not in the context of what was asked.

If you go to the University of Hawaii, you will have problems convincing employers in Montana that you want to work for them. You will have, however, no problem convincing employers in Hawaii that you want to work for them, just as employers in Montana will not question the "ties" of someone who went to school at U of Montana.

Kitty RC fail.


Totally untrue. If you go to law school somewhere different than where you previously lived or grew up you will have a bitch of a time convincing employers that you don't want to go home. It's not enough to just go to law school there. I don't know why you are just stating that like it's a fact. It's contrary to my personal experience and the experience of a lot of people posting in this thread.

User avatar
romothesavior
Posts: 14772
Joined: Fri Jun 26, 2009 4:29 pm

Re: TLS is a mindless echo chamber

Postby romothesavior » Mon Apr 16, 2012 1:40 pm

I am so sick of the hivemind groupthink.

User avatar
romothesavior
Posts: 14772
Joined: Fri Jun 26, 2009 4:29 pm

Re: TLS is a mindless echo chamber

Postby romothesavior » Mon Apr 16, 2012 1:40 pm

romothesavior wrote:I am so sick of the hivemind groupthink.

Yeah me too, TLS is an echo chamber of misinformation.

User avatar
romothesavior
Posts: 14772
Joined: Fri Jun 26, 2009 4:29 pm

Re: TLS is a mindless echo chamber

Postby romothesavior » Mon Apr 16, 2012 1:41 pm

romothesavior wrote:
romothesavior wrote:I am so sick of the hivemind groupthink.

Yeah me too, TLS is an echo chamber of misinformation.

+1

User avatar
romothesavior
Posts: 14772
Joined: Fri Jun 26, 2009 4:29 pm

Re: TLS is a mindless echo chamber

Postby romothesavior » Mon Apr 16, 2012 1:41 pm

romothesavior wrote:
romothesavior wrote:
romothesavior wrote:I am so sick of the hivemind groupthink.

Yeah me too, TLS is an echo chamber of misinformation.

+1

Lord Randolph McDuff
Posts: 1587
Joined: Wed Jun 08, 2011 4:37 pm

Re: TLS is a mindless echo chamber

Postby Lord Randolph McDuff » Mon Apr 16, 2012 1:46 pm

Ludovico Technique wrote:
Lord Randolph McDuff wrote:
Teoeo wrote:OP - sounds like you are upset by something. Ties are important, whether you want to believe it or not. Sorry.


Not in the context of what was asked.

If you go to the University of Hawaii, you will have problems convincing employers in Montana that you want to work for them. You will have, however, no problem convincing employers in Hawaii that you want to work for them, just as employers in Montana will not question the "ties" of someone who went to school at U of Montana.

Kitty RC fail.


Totally untrue. If you go to law school somewhere different than where you previously lived or grew up you will have a bitch of a time convincing employers that you don't want to go home. It's not enough to just go to law school there. I don't know why you are just stating that like it's a fact. It's contrary to my personal experience and the experience of a lot of people posting in this thread.


60% of my school is out-of-state and yet 90% work in Colorado.

Whatever man, just because you say it will be a bitch of a time doesn't make it a bitch of a time. 98% of the anecdotes on this cite have come from students at top 25 schools who are trying to get a job someplace they A) didn't grow up or B) didn't go to school.

The local school is a big "tie."

Lord Randolph McDuff
Posts: 1587
Joined: Wed Jun 08, 2011 4:37 pm

Re: TLS is a mindless echo chamber

Postby Lord Randolph McDuff » Mon Apr 16, 2012 1:50 pm

rad lulz wrote:
Lord Randolph McDuff wrote:
Teoeo wrote:OP - sounds like you are upset by something. Ties are important, whether you want to believe it or not. Sorry.


Not in the context of what was asked.

If you go to the University of Hawaii, you will have problems convincing employers in Montana that you want to work for them. You will have, however, no problem convincing employers in Hawaii that you want to work for them, just as employers in Montana will not question the "ties" of someone who went to school at U of Montana.

Kitty RC fail.

Actually I talked to someone about Hawaii and he said absolutely don't go unless you are from or have srs preexisting ties because it has an extreme homer bias, even if you go to the local school.


Oh you talked to someone. You know I actually talked to the same dude. He said he was fucking with you. What an ass?

If you can't convince people that moving to an island thousands of miles from nowhere and spending three years and 80k isn't significant, than the problem is with you and not the hypo. Like has been said, employers want someone who adds value to the company. Maybe in a weird tie-break situation the kid from Hawaii gets the job, but not only is this doubtful, when do tie-breaks actually happen??? If the out-of-state kid is a better fit, is smarter, is more of a grinder, out-of-state kid wins every time.

Ties are overstated. If you want to move to Idaho and go to U of Idaho, you're weird, but you can easily convince employers you want to stay in Idaho.

09042014
Posts: 18282
Joined: Wed Oct 14, 2009 10:47 pm

Re: TLS is a mindless echo chamber

Postby 09042014 » Mon Apr 16, 2012 1:52 pm

Also, I don't believe ties are a recent discovery on TLS. They've been talked about since I've been here. Which is around the OP's time.

User avatar
padawanphil
Posts: 351
Joined: Tue Nov 15, 2011 3:42 pm

Re: TLS is a mindless echo chamber

Postby padawanphil » Mon Apr 16, 2012 1:57 pm

seeing as how this thread is right up her alley and she has yet to appear I'm convinced OP is just a Bearsgrl alt

rad lulz
Posts: 9844
Joined: Sun Feb 19, 2012 10:53 pm

Re: TLS is a mindless echo chamber

Postby rad lulz » Mon Apr 16, 2012 1:58 pm

Lord Randolph McDuff wrote:60% of my school is out-of-state and yet 90% work in Colorado.

Whatever man, just because you say it will be a bitch of a time doesn't make it a bitch of a time. 98% of the anecdotes on this cite have come from students at top 25 schools who are trying to get a job someplace they A) didn't grow up or B) didn't go to school.

The local school is a big "tie."

Since only 65% of CU grads (assuming it's CU) got a full time bar-passage required job after graduation in 2010, I'm not sure this is the best example to use.

The other week I talked to a dude who told me someone who went to UF and had sky-high grades struck out at OCI because he had no previous ties. The person who told me this was at UF was a LR grade-on who managed to squeak 1 out 1 firm offer in the spring. He blames this on lack of ties.

If you have badass grades, you should still have option with large firms. If you have to hustle with small firms, you can demonstrate commitment by networking, etc., but you're already behind the 8ball compared to people who are from there.

User avatar
romothesavior
Posts: 14772
Joined: Fri Jun 26, 2009 4:29 pm

Re: TLS is a mindless echo chamber

Postby romothesavior » Mon Apr 16, 2012 1:58 pm

A couple things Lord McDuff...

First, ties are not the be all in hiring. That's been made clear 100 times. Second, the importance of ties varies by city. St. Louis is hyper insular, New York City isn't. It sounds like maybe Colorado isnt as much as other markets. So many factors go into the equation. Some firms are even more demanding than others. Finally, even if a local school places most of the students into a market, in the aggregate, the local kids almost always outdo their similarly situated out of town counterparts, based on my limited observations. For example, a top 30% New Yorker is almost certainly shut out of STL biglaw from WUSTL, whereas a top 30% local kid still has a shot. So you both might still get a job in that location, but the better jobs typically go to the local, all else being equal. I have seen this firsthand multiple times.

Ties are important, I've always said that. But don't turn it into a strawman by overstating my position. Its not everything and the lack of them can certainly be overcome, and other factors are just as important or even more so.

OP, when I applied to law school 2-3 years ago, I was told repeatedly about ties and how insular St. Louis is. I disregarded that to some degree and I shouldn't have. This ties thing is not new; it has simply been exacerbated by the bad economy and shrinking firm summer classes.

Lord Randolph McDuff
Posts: 1587
Joined: Wed Jun 08, 2011 4:37 pm

Re: TLS is a mindless echo chamber

Postby Lord Randolph McDuff » Mon Apr 16, 2012 1:59 pm

Desert Fox wrote:Also, I don't believe ties are a recent discovery on TLS. They've been talked about since I've been here. Which is around the OP's time.


I remember they were talked about when I would lurk on here.. say 2008/2009? However, they were talked about in a different sense. No one would tell someone not to go to State U, in fact, the opposite was true.

The groupthink at the time was -- go to State U if you want to work there.

Ties were only discussed in the sense of trying to get big law in an area where you had no ties.

User avatar
romothesavior
Posts: 14772
Joined: Fri Jun 26, 2009 4:29 pm

Re: TLS is a mindless echo chamber

Postby romothesavior » Mon Apr 16, 2012 2:02 pm

Lord Randolph McDuff wrote:
Desert Fox wrote:Also, I don't believe ties are a recent discovery on TLS. They've been talked about since I've been here. Which is around the OP's time.


I remember they were talked about when I would lurk on here.. say 2008/2009? However, they were talked about in a different sense. No one would tell someone not to go to State U, in fact, the opposite was true.

The groupthink at the time was -- go to State U if you want to work there.

Ties were only discussed in the sense of trying to get big law in an area where you had no ties.

Things have changed duder. When secondary biglaw classes go from 20 to 5 there is more competition around the margins.

Lord Randolph McDuff
Posts: 1587
Joined: Wed Jun 08, 2011 4:37 pm

Re: TLS is a mindless echo chamber

Postby Lord Randolph McDuff » Mon Apr 16, 2012 2:04 pm

rad lulz wrote:
Lord Randolph McDuff wrote:60% of my school is out-of-state and yet 90% work in Colorado.

Whatever man, just because you say it will be a bitch of a time doesn't make it a bitch of a time. 98% of the anecdotes on this cite have come from students at top 25 schools who are trying to get a job someplace they A) didn't grow up or B) didn't go to school.

The local school is a big "tie."

Since only 65% of CU grads (assuming it's CU) got a full time bar-passage required job after graduation in 2010, I'm not sure this is the best example to use.

The other week I talked to a dude who told me someone who went to UF and had sky-high grades struck out at OCI because he had no previous ties. The person who told me this was at UF was a LR grade-on who managed to squeak 1 out 1 firm offer in the spring. He blames this on lack of ties.

If you have badass grades, you should still have option with large firms. If you have to hustle with small firms, you can demonstrate commitment by networking, etc., but you're already behind the 8ball compared to people who are from there.


The CU example is provided so you can see that the majority of students at this school literally break your rule. No ties, and yet they all work here (regardless of whether they are full-time attorneys or not). The fact that some of these jobs weren't full-time legal is a whole different discussion. See this thread for starters : viewtopic.php?f=23&t=182792

Secondly, I'm not talking about big law. Most law students do not get big law, so why is that being discussed? It was never mentioned in the OP.

User avatar
romothesavior
Posts: 14772
Joined: Fri Jun 26, 2009 4:29 pm

Re: TLS is a mindless echo chamber

Postby romothesavior » Mon Apr 16, 2012 2:06 pm

Hello

Hello

Hello

Hello

Lord Randolph McDuff
Posts: 1587
Joined: Wed Jun 08, 2011 4:37 pm

Re: TLS is a mindless echo chamber

Postby Lord Randolph McDuff » Mon Apr 16, 2012 2:07 pm

Dooders I am not talking about Big Law. I know big law hiring has changed dramatically, but that has nothing to do with OP about "ties."

Only people that have mentioned big law are t-25 kids gunning for big law who are pissed that their "ties" are limiting them. That makes sense.

OP was about U of Ark. Let's focus. Since 2008, did going to State U all of a sudden not become a good "tie?" This is a question that is at least worthy of an answer.

Lord Randolph McDuff
Posts: 1587
Joined: Wed Jun 08, 2011 4:37 pm

Re: TLS is a mindless echo chamber

Postby Lord Randolph McDuff » Mon Apr 16, 2012 2:08 pm

flem wrote:
Lord Randolph McDuff wrote:
Secondly, I'm not talking about big law. Most law students do not get big law, so why is that being discussed? It was never mentioned in the OP.


Lord Randolph McDuff wrote:
Ties were only discussed in the sense of trying to get big law in an area where you had no ties.


:?:


Yes.

In OP, no mention of big law.

In responses, t-25 dudes opine about how "ties" matter in big law hiring.

Different.

Lord Randolph McDuff
Posts: 1587
Joined: Wed Jun 08, 2011 4:37 pm

Re: TLS is a mindless echo chamber

Postby Lord Randolph McDuff » Mon Apr 16, 2012 2:12 pm

PS. Loving that of the 67 votes only 25 think "ties" are accurately stated. Yet from reading this thread jammed packed with regular posters (who all go to national schools with the exception of maybe the one UIUC dooder) you'd think the results would be flipped.

Exactly what you'd expect. People who go to regional schools know that "ties" are way overstated.

Lord Randolph McDuff
Posts: 1587
Joined: Wed Jun 08, 2011 4:37 pm

Re: TLS is a mindless echo chamber

Postby Lord Randolph McDuff » Mon Apr 16, 2012 2:13 pm

flem wrote:
Lord Randolph McDuff wrote:Dooders I am not talking about Big Law. I know big law hiring has changed dramatically, but that has nothing to do with OP about "ties."

Only people that have mentioned big law are t-25 kids gunning for big law who are pissed that their "ties" are limiting them. That makes sense.

OP was about U of Ark. Let's focus. Since 2008, did going to State U all of a sudden not become a good "tie?" This is a question that is at least worthy of an answer.


I don't think it became not 'good', but in small parochial markets like southern states they're going to give jobs to homer bros instead of out of towner bros.

It's just a tie breaker (zing!) that can only work to your advantage if you have them, and your disadvantage if you don't.


I could agree with this. I like what you've said.

User avatar
romothesavior
Posts: 14772
Joined: Fri Jun 26, 2009 4:29 pm

Re: TLS is a mindless echo chamber

Postby romothesavior » Mon Apr 16, 2012 2:14 pm

Lord McDuff, please see above. Rads point is relevant and its not a "different issue." If median Colorado students who are from CO are getting decent firms or government jobs and median Colorado students from Detroit are working part time in shitlaw land (in the aggregate) then ties are important. They are both "working in Colorado" but ties played a role. Or what if the unemployed students (of which Colorado has many) are disproportionately out of staters? Obviously I can't prove this with 100% certainty; all I can do is provide a shitload of observations and anecdotes. But because of what I just described, your numbers don't prove much either. Some "Working in Colorado" stat doesn't tell us much about ties. Im far more inclined to agree with the hordes of law students who are witnessing the same phenomenon I am. Your view is in the minority among all the law students I know. Even my CSO would disagree with you.

User avatar
Nelson
Posts: 2061
Joined: Thu Feb 03, 2011 12:43 am

Re: TLS is a mindless echo chamber

Postby Nelson » Mon Apr 16, 2012 2:17 pm

Lord Randolph McDuff wrote:PS. Loving that of the 67 votes only 25 think "ties" are accurately stated. Yet from reading this thread jammed packed with regular posters (who all go to national schools with the exception of maybe the one UIUC dooder) you'd think the results would be flipped.

Exactly what you'd expect. People who go to regional schools know that "ties" are way overstated.

This actually just proves that drive by voters in TLS polls are fools.

Your argument is broken. You're basically saying "if you go to a school without any placement outside of its region, you'll be forced to get a job in that region." Yeah, no kidding. That doesn't mean that the kids who are from that region don't have an advantage.




Return to “Law School Admissions Forum”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: AFtoLawschool, Baidu [Spider] and 5 guests