TLS is a mindless echo chamber

(Applications Advice, Letters of Recommendation . . . )

Right about the "ties?"

Yes-"ties" are an accurate, albeit recent discovery by TLS.
64
40%
No-"ties," along with 40% of everything on this site = mindless bullshit
39
24%
I don't know, but "ties" may be overstated
26
16%
I for realz don't know
32
20%
 
Total votes: 161

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PDaddy
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Re: TLS is a mindless echo chamber

Postby PDaddy » Mon Apr 16, 2012 6:28 am

I am being misquoted all over the place. I never said that my interviews at schools were my SOLE basis for my beliefs. I didn't even say they were my strongest. I simply mentioned the schools because those conversations factored into my views. Like practically everyone on TLS, I know a number of attorneys, some who recently graduated and are working in large markets. Not once have I ever heard from any of them that they were grilled about their ties or received indications that they were rejected because of lack of ties. It could be that they attended the very top schools, I don't know. But I know people working in NY who had never been there prior to their interviews. They were from cities like Atlanta, Chicago and Los Angeles.

Those deans I mentioned talk to recruiters all the time. Deans Van Zandt and Lee at NU, for example, know their stuff, which is why NU grads have suffered less than most.

I haven't said that ties are absolutely never a factor. I did say that they don't give a damn in the grand scheme of things. That is to say that, in the typical case, a lack of ties will not be a deal-breaker.

If a prospect has a good story and can convince a recruiter that he has good reasons for wanting to work in a particular market, and the recruiter likes the prospect, the prospect will get the job. Ties are mostly irrelevant if you are talking grads from top law schools. They may play a bigger role in the calculus with grads from more regional schools (as opposed to national or semi-national schools), but I still don't believe ties or a lack thereof can be a deal-maker or breaker for most.

rad lulz
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Re: TLS is a mindless echo chamber

Postby rad lulz » Mon Apr 16, 2012 6:31 am

lol; in re NU:

Desert Fox wrote:NU's career services tells you to bid where you have ties. It's not a TLS thing.


Also

if a prospect has a good story and can convince a recruiter that he has good reasons for wanting to work in a particular market, and the recruiter likes the prospect, the prospect will get the job.


This is true, but it's pretty hard to craft believable stories for random-ass secondary markets if you don't have the ties. Because they often ask some variation of "have you spent significant time here." I don't recommend lying. I've heard of quite a few people getting called on it. Again, the general rule applies more than the exceptions.

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sunynp
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Re: TLS is a mindless echo chamber

Postby sunynp » Mon Apr 16, 2012 6:45 am

PDaddy wrote:
sunynp wrote:
rad lulz wrote:
Desert Fox wrote:One firm asked me if I had even ever been to NYC. First fucking question.

Got this question all the time too.

NYC cares about ties somewhat. There. I said it. Come at me, TLS.


After reading all the posts complaining about the size of apartments in new york city, the taxes in new york city and the general expense of new york city, I understand this question from NYC firms. I remember someone posting and asking why a "grown-ass" man would want to live in a small apartment. Some people are never gong to understand NYC.

Firms don't want to waste their time on someone who won't be happy in the city. Not everyone can handle the city on a day to day basis, it is a huge change for most people.


Yes, but what does this have to do with "ties"? Your family history, work history, etc may or may not indicate potential for happiness in a given market. Some small town folks want nothing more to do with the small towns. Some New Yorkers are looking for a simpler lifestyle. I grew up in a big city, and I love big cities and would never want to reside anywhere else. But that doesn't mean I am not open to big cities other than those in my home region.


I didn't say that you had to have ties to get a job in NYC. I was explaining why firms want to know if you "have ever been to the city." I think NYC is an exception because people move here from all over, all the time and firms know they offer the best work (transactional is my frame here) and the best pay. Still people come to NY firms and leave after a couple of years to go back home to Minnesota or Cincinnati. Firms expect that too.

I'm not sure the same follows in secondary markets, but I don't know anything about secondary markets. ( The only other place I considered working was the South for personal reasons,for about a month it looked like I might move there, but those plans changed. I think I would have had to sell a good story of why I was moving to Birmingham Alabama from NYC and my personal reasons were probably convincing. But I don't think anyone would have believed I was going to spend the rest of my life in a city or state I had never been to. I didn't end up looking there, so who knows how it would have turned out.)

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Gail
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Re: TLS is a mindless echo chamber

Postby Gail » Mon Apr 16, 2012 7:25 am

flcath wrote:Yeah, it's really shitty from our perspective, because a lot of us really would be willing to live permanently in a city we have to which we have no ties. Of course some people are flat-out lying (I was when I CB'ed at Honigman [Detroit] and Foley [Milwaukee]), and others think they'd be happy in SoCal but really wouldn't.

And lol at there being jobs in Florida.


Well. Florida was just an example. Change it to Texas or something, maybe?

I just don't get why going to the regional school isn't a stronger tie. Wtf do they think we're going to do? Jet for NYC from Colorado University? Seriously?



And to PDaddy. I doubt you're right. This seems more believable. People are awful. Stupid. And irrational. Makes complete sense that they would be stupid, irrational and awful about not being a good bet because you're not from the area.

Because everyone wants to go back home. Even if home is fucking Flint, Michigan. Morons, all of them.

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Re: TLS is a mindless echo chamber

Postby rad lulz » Mon Apr 16, 2012 7:32 am

Gail wrote:I just don't get why going to the regional school isn't a stronger tie. Wtf do they think we're going to do? Jet for NYC from Colorado University? Seriously?


It may not be that extreme. It may be just you finding out the place you moved just to go to law school isn't all you thought it was cracked up to be, so after 3 years, you leave for somewhere else after you have solid, marketable skills.

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Gail
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Re: TLS is a mindless echo chamber

Postby Gail » Mon Apr 16, 2012 7:35 am

rad lulz wrote:
Gail wrote:I just don't get why going to the regional school isn't a stronger tie. Wtf do they think we're going to do? Jet for NYC from Colorado University? Seriously?


It may not be that extreme. It may be just you finding out the place you moved just to go to law school isn't all you thought it was cracked up to be, so after 3 years, you leave for somewhere else after you have solid, marketable skills.


Again. Firms are irrational. They think someone in Cleveland is going to hire me with zero ties, when my only tie to Denver was Colorado? The shit?

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Re: TLS is a mindless echo chamber

Postby rad lulz » Mon Apr 16, 2012 7:38 am

Gail wrote:
rad lulz wrote:
Gail wrote:I just don't get why going to the regional school isn't a stronger tie. Wtf do they think we're going to do? Jet for NYC from Colorado University? Seriously?


It may not be that extreme. It may be just you finding out the place you moved just to go to law school isn't all you thought it was cracked up to be, so after 3 years, you leave for somewhere else after you have solid, marketable skills.


Again. Firms are irrational. They think someone in Cleveland is going to hire me with zero ties, when my only tie to Denver was Colorado? The shit?

After you have some marketable skillz (which you should have after 3 years), it seems firms are generally more willing to take chances on you.

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Gail
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Re: TLS is a mindless echo chamber

Postby Gail » Mon Apr 16, 2012 7:59 am

ANybody think it would be a good idea to have a ties thread? People come in, ask whether their ties are weak or strong, their market is heavy on ties or light on them?

Might help people focus their applications. Idk.

rad lulz
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Re: TLS is a mindless echo chamber

Postby rad lulz » Mon Apr 16, 2012 8:02 am

Gail wrote:ANybody think it would be a good idea to have a ties thread? People come in, ask whether their ties are weak or strong, their market is heavy on ties or light on them?

Might help people focus their applications. Idk.

Wouldn't be super helpful probably because it also largely depends on grades and school prestige in the target market.

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2014
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Re: TLS is a mindless echo chamber

Postby 2014 » Mon Apr 16, 2012 8:41 am

If one fakes a fiance in an interview do they need to have a fake engagement ring on?

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FlanAl
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Re: TLS is a mindless echo chamber

Postby FlanAl » Mon Apr 16, 2012 8:51 am

interested in above post. and also curious as to why on earth firms have this fear of people leaving so quick? Does NYC take laterals from small town mid law? Do really great opportunities in other cities pop up in three years? ITE when everyone clings to whatever job they have for dear life it just seems like this fear of people bailing is completely irrational.

I'll accept that its the truth (everyone in the legal industry I know talks about ties) but it really doesn't make that much sense? Or are there awesome opportunities after being a 2nd year associate?

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Re: TLS is a mindless echo chamber

Postby rad lulz » Mon Apr 16, 2012 8:52 am

2014 wrote:If one fakes a fiance in an interview do they need to have a fake engagement ring on?

Not if you're a man.

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Re: TLS is a mindless echo chamber

Postby rad lulz » Mon Apr 16, 2012 8:52 am

FlanAl wrote:interested in above post. and also curious as to why on earth firms have this fear of people leaving so quick? Does NYC take laterals from small town mid law? Do really great opportunities in other cities pop up in three years? ITE when everyone clings to whatever job they have for dear life it just seems like this fear of people bailing is completely irrational.

I'll accept that its the truth (everyone in the legal industry I know talks about ties) but it really doesn't make that much sense? Or are there awesome opportunities after being a 2nd year associate?

Lateral opportunities are actually hot as shit right now breh, IIRC

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rayiner
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Re: TLS is a mindless echo chamber

Postby rayiner » Mon Apr 16, 2012 8:53 am

2014 wrote:If one fakes a fiance in an interview do they need to have a fake engagement ring on?


For girls I'd weigh the costs and benefits of mentioning even real SO's. Going to a city for an SO makes a guy seem stable. It makes a girl seem flighty. As if she'll leave if he moves.

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FlanAl
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Re: TLS is a mindless echo chamber

Postby FlanAl » Mon Apr 16, 2012 8:57 am

rad lulz wrote:
FlanAl wrote:interested in above post. and also curious as to why on earth firms have this fear of people leaving so quick? Does NYC take laterals from small town mid law? Do really great opportunities in other cities pop up in three years? ITE when everyone clings to whatever job they have for dear life it just seems like this fear of people bailing is completely irrational.

I'll accept that its the truth (everyone in the legal industry I know talks about ties) but it really doesn't make that much sense? Or are there awesome opportunities after being a 2nd year associate?

Lateral opportunities are actually hot as shit right now breh, IIRC


I've only heard that for people who are in Major Markets. The ties thing always seems to be about "oh they'll leave as soon as they get NYC or SF". But its not like some kid with Phoenix big law can just lateral to NYC right? So I can dig they are worried about you leaving for a different firm or something, but where are we going to go? Is the fear that we want to move back to our hometowns?

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Re: TLS is a mindless echo chamber

Postby rad lulz » Mon Apr 16, 2012 8:59 am

FlanAl wrote:
rad lulz wrote:
FlanAl wrote:interested in above post. and also curious as to why on earth firms have this fear of people leaving so quick? Does NYC take laterals from small town mid law? Do really great opportunities in other cities pop up in three years? ITE when everyone clings to whatever job they have for dear life it just seems like this fear of people bailing is completely irrational.

I'll accept that its the truth (everyone in the legal industry I know talks about ties) but it really doesn't make that much sense? Or are there awesome opportunities after being a 2nd year associate?

Lateral opportunities are actually hot as shit right now breh, IIRC


I've only heard that for people who are in Major Markets. The ties thing always seems to be about "oh they'll leave as soon as they get NYC or SF". But its not like some kid with Phoenix big law can just lateral to NYC right? So I can dig they are worried about you leaving for a different firm or something, but where are we going to go? Is the fear that we want to move back to our hometowns?

They're afraid of something, that much I know.

http://amlawdaily.typepad.com/amlawdaily/2011/03/nalpassociatehires.html

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FlanAl
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Re: TLS is a mindless echo chamber

Postby FlanAl » Mon Apr 16, 2012 9:04 am

rad lulz wrote:
FlanAl wrote:
rad lulz wrote:
FlanAl wrote:interested in above post. and also curious as to why on earth firms have this fear of people leaving so quick? Does NYC take laterals from small town mid law? Do really great opportunities in other cities pop up in three years? ITE when everyone clings to whatever job they have for dear life it just seems like this fear of people bailing is completely irrational.

I'll accept that its the truth (everyone in the legal industry I know talks about ties) but it really doesn't make that much sense? Or are there awesome opportunities after being a 2nd year associate?

Lateral opportunities are actually hot as shit right now breh, IIRC


I've only heard that for people who are in Major Markets. The ties thing always seems to be about "oh they'll leave as soon as they get NYC or SF". But its not like some kid with Phoenix big law can just lateral to NYC right? So I can dig they are worried about you leaving for a different firm or something, but where are we going to go? Is the fear that we want to move back to our hometowns?

They're afraid of something, that much I know.

http://amlawdaily.typepad.com/amlawdaily/2011/03/nalpassociatehires.html


totally accept that its happening in major markets etc. I just don't get the fear from firms in like Buffalo, is it really an option to work in Buffalo for 2 years than move to NYC big law? WHY THE FEAR from secondary markets, haha

I'm not trying to question the need for ties, I totally accept that you need them. It makes sense as far as having extra reasons for wanting to work somewhere. I just don't get the flight fear. Maybe its just one of the many irrational things about legal hiring (like hiring all its people 2 years before they will actually work etc.)

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Re: TLS is a mindless echo chamber

Postby beachbum » Mon Apr 16, 2012 9:44 am

Desert Fox wrote:
rad lulz wrote:
Desert Fox wrote:One firm asked me if I had even ever been to NYC. First fucking question.

Got this question all the time too.

NYC cares about ties somewhat. There. I said it. Come at me, TLS.


I think NYC firms just don't want to be backup choices for lifelong midwesterners, southerners and west coasters. From my resume it's clear I had never left Illinois.


Every time someone says something like this, it scares the shit out of me. I wish we could make this part of the TLS echo chamber before we all give blunt advice about having NYC as a reliable option to pay off all the loans you took out for that preftigious lawl school.

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Teoeo
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Re: TLS is a mindless echo chamber

Postby Teoeo » Mon Apr 16, 2012 9:50 am

OP - sounds like you are upset by something. Ties are important, whether you want to believe it or not. Sorry.

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Re: TLS is a mindless echo chamber

Postby dingbat » Mon Apr 16, 2012 10:02 am

beachbum wrote:
Desert Fox wrote:
rad lulz wrote:
Desert Fox wrote:One firm asked me if I had even ever been to NYC. First fucking question.

Got this question all the time too.

NYC cares about ties somewhat. There. I said it. Come at me, TLS.


I think NYC firms just don't want to be backup choices for lifelong midwesterners, southerners and west coasters. From my resume it's clear I had never left Illinois.


Every time someone says something like this, it scares the shit out of me. I wish we could make this part of the TLS echo chamber before we all give blunt advice about having NYC as a reliable option to pay off all the loans you took out for that preftigious lawl school.

New York has so many people moving here that ties doesn't really matter. If you are a too performer (T14, top 5-15% of T1 depending on the school) it's a non-issue: "anyone with ambition wants NY".
If you're lower down the ranks, you'll have a tough time getting hired regardless (non-T14, non-NY without top grades can't compete with Fordham, Dozo, Brooklyn, so ties won't really matter.)

But I assume NY is the exception, for those reasons

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Gail
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Re: TLS is a mindless echo chamber

Postby Gail » Mon Apr 16, 2012 11:20 am

this is just another one of the BS things that makes me kind of question just not going. not because i don't want to be a lawyer, but because other lawyers seem like insecure turds.

what makes it even harder is that you don't know what your ties really mean. having family in the region or even the city might not be good enough. growing up in the state might not be good enough for the city. what complete and total crap.

and there doesn't seem to be any way to find out whether your ties are good or not. calling parnters to ask "hey, do you think i'm an outsider?" sounds like a dead-end, and of course career services is a dead end. damn it.

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booboo
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Re: TLS is a mindless echo chamber

Postby booboo » Mon Apr 16, 2012 11:31 am

rayiner wrote:
2014 wrote:If one fakes a fiance in an interview do they need to have a fake engagement ring on?


For girls I'd weigh the costs and benefits of mentioning even real SO's. Going to a city for an SO makes a guy seem stable. It makes a girl seem flighty. As if she'll leave if he moves.



Lol, love this. It is likely true but keep in mind who the interviewer is as well. If you've got prototypical old white guy as your interviewer, you may not want to wear that pant suit if you're a girl. Play the situation.

So... have the ring on hand, lol.

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sunynp
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Re: TLS is a mindless echo chamber

Postby sunynp » Mon Apr 16, 2012 12:43 pm

I think there is an indirect aspect of ties as well. There is the familiarity with the culture, being connected in a social group. A Birmingham firm absolutely can't count on a person from NYC knowing how to fit in or having a great set of friends at the country club, or good political connections. And they would have been right to be skeptical of a New Yorker moving somewhere they have never lived, for whatever reason.

I think firms in NYC are used to people bailing, but they don't want to have to deal with someone who can't cope with the city. Most people have to leave biglaw eventually, it just comes down to a question of when. So people leave when they feel it is most advantageous to them. Other markets or least places other than traditional biglaw, I think they want people who will stay and try to make partner(?) And they may want you to have connections that the biglaw firms don't need you to have.

I mean ask yourself if you are a hiring partner in secondary market city Y, and you are interviewing someone who has never even visited, wouldn't you doubt their commitment and fit to your firm? And when you have someone who has lived there all their lives, all other things being close to equal, wouldn't you hire them?

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Samara
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Re: TLS is a mindless echo chamber

Postby Samara » Mon Apr 16, 2012 12:48 pm

sunynp wrote:I think there is an indirect aspect of ties as well. There is the familiarity with the culture, being connected in a social group. A Birmingham firm absolutely can't count on a person from NYC knowing how to fit in or having a great set of friends at the country club, or good political connections. And they would have been right to be skeptical of a New Yorker moving somewhere they have never lived, for whatever reason.

I think firms in NYC are used to people bailing, but they don't want to have to deal with someone who can't cope with the city. Most people have to leave biglaw eventually, it just comes down to a question of when. So people leave when they feel it is most advantageous to them. Other markets or least places other than traditional biglaw, I think they want people who will stay and try to make partner(?) And they may want you to have connections that the biglaw firms don't need you to have.

I mean ask yourself if you are a hiring partner in secondary market city Y, and you are interviewing someone who has never even visited, wouldn't you doubt their commitment and fit to your firm? And when you have someone who has lived there all their lives, all other things being close to equal, wouldn't you hire them?

The bolded seems like the key point. If you aren't a good fit, part of which can be determined through ties, you're going to leave sooner rather than later. Firms want you to leave later. Isn't the most profitable situation everybody gunning for partner? If you don't have ties, you probably aren't going to gun for partner.

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Re: TLS is a mindless echo chamber

Postby Lord Randolph McDuff » Mon Apr 16, 2012 1:21 pm

Yeah... ok I think most of you are missing the point.

If you go to a national school, you have options. Most of the posters on this thread go to a national school, and their advice makes a lot of sense for others in their position. You have to sell yourself to the market because A) firms don't want to offer someone who isn't going to accept and B) firms don't want someone to work there for a few years and leave.

But that wasn't the question posed.

Point is, if you go to State U, and spend three years there and a ton of money, employers are going to assume you want to work in that state. I mean, where else are you going to go from University of Idaho? Unlike applicants from national schools, the assumption is that you are here to stay. So when another Minn/UGA/USD thread pops up, chill out. By spending three years in Athens, the kid will have developed a very believable story--because it is likely true-- for why he wants to work in ATL. I know it doesn't apply to you (which is why you all were so wrong on this issue in the first place), but it applies to the majority of people who view this site. People who are going/plan to go to regional schools.

Ties are at the very least extremely overstated. Definite echo chamber effect.




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