TLS is a mindless echo chamber

(Applications Advice, Letters of Recommendation . . . )

Right about the "ties?"

Yes-"ties" are an accurate, albeit recent discovery by TLS.
64
40%
No-"ties," along with 40% of everything on this site = mindless bullshit
39
24%
I don't know, but "ties" may be overstated
26
16%
I for realz don't know
32
20%
 
Total votes: 161

Lord Randolph McDuff
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Re: TLS is a mindless echo chamber

Postby Lord Randolph McDuff » Mon Apr 16, 2012 5:32 pm

romothesavior wrote:
But using an example like Texas Tech? It just adds nothing to the conversation. It is almost universally a terrible option unless you have a massive scholarship to begin with.


You just did the " O Shyt TLS elitist!!" thang again.

Dude Tech produces about the same amount of JD required full time lawyers as WUSTL. Like 70%+?

Read a book.

rad lulz
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Re: TLS is a mindless echo chamber

Postby rad lulz » Mon Apr 16, 2012 5:32 pm

Lord Randolph McDuff wrote:
rad lulz wrote:
MTBike wrote:
rad lulz wrote:This. Outside the top and bottom of the class, the remainder is largely an undifferentiated morass.


Good point... however, it seems unlikely that everyone in this mass of the middle 50% is going to interview equally. Shouldn't/isn't that more important to employers?

Strong ties help you connect to the interviewer on a personal level. They add greatly to your interview.


For you.

You go to Vandy. You have options and are likely really ambitious--they really, really want to know you are going to stick around.

You are having horrible trouble empathizing with the majority of law students who don't go to Vandy-esqe schools.

Why would this be any less true at a regional school. Seriously. People I know who go to UGA/UF/GA State/FSU/Ole Miss/UNC get asked the same questions.

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Re: TLS is a mindless echo chamber

Postby Lord Randolph McDuff » Mon Apr 16, 2012 5:34 pm

f0bolous wrote:
And no, I don't go to a T-14. I did end up getting offers in this region without real ties, but OCI would have been much different if I were a born-and-bred Texan.



haha. so. you went to an out-of-state school, and got a job in a different market through OCI. excuse me-- T25?

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Re: TLS is a mindless echo chamber

Postby Lord Randolph McDuff » Mon Apr 16, 2012 5:36 pm

rad lulz wrote:Why would this be any less true at a regional school. Seriously. People I know who go to UGA/UF/GA State/FSU/Ole Miss/UNC get asked the same questions.


Because the regional school kid has no other options, so they know he is committed.

To the second part about southern schools:

Here I have to confess I have no good answer. If you would have said CU, I'd immediately disagree. Maybe the South really is that dumb. That is shocking that they would hire someone with worse grades/worse interviewing skills because they knew about a HS football game 8 years ago. I know you haven't said worse grades/worse interviewing skills, but that is really what is implicit. I mean, if it only helps in tie-breakers, then I remain steadfast that it is completely overstated.

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romothesavior
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Re: TLS is a mindless echo chamber

Postby romothesavior » Mon Apr 16, 2012 5:40 pm

rad lulz wrote:
Lord Randolph McDuff wrote:Why would this be weird at all? I don't' think you are really thinking this through..

Ok, Tech is a TTT, but the interview dude who is apparently going to ask you a weird Q literally graduated from Tech. He likes Tech. So when you say, yeah I want to live in west Texas because it is such a family oriented place, and I was so lucky to get into such a great law school out here-- he is going to like you. Why would he ask " hey, asshole, this place sucks why did you come? "

Flem he lives there.

Whelp you're still gonna look more out of place when compared to the dude who knows all that from experience because he grew up there or went to Tech for UG and can talk about Sam Houston High's football championship run back in '06 or whatever.

Now that I think about it...

At one firm in a city where I had zero ties, the hiring partner was from my hometown and we had a long talk about it.

At another firm, one of my CB interviewers was from my hometown and we knew some of the same people. Two of my interviewers were from WUSTL, so we were able to shoot the breeze about a bunch of school-specific and St. Louis stuff.

I was able to show my Midwestern roots and show them why I wanted to be at their firm, even though I wasn't a native of that particular city. If I were from California or something and these conversations about hometowns and mutual interests hadn't taken place, I would have probably been just another face in the crowd of applicants.

So yeah I think there are two things working on this ties front... a conscious consideration on the part of the hiring committee about flight risk and all of that, and also a "connection" factor with your interviewer. Seems to be a common experience for just about everyone who has, you know, actually been through legal hiring.

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Re: TLS is a mindless echo chamber

Postby rad lulz » Mon Apr 16, 2012 5:41 pm

Lord Randolph McDuff wrote:
rad lulz wrote:Why would this be any less true at a regional school. Seriously. People I know who go to UGA/UF/GA State/FSU/Ole Miss/UNC get asked the same questions.


Because the regional school kid has no other options, so they know he is committed.


You'd be surprised how many aren't. And when you compare people who grew up there and have actual strong ties, guess who looks better in comparison when you're trying to sift through that undifferentiated morass of people in the middle. Who are you gonna believe? Worse grades are definitely not implicit.

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Re: TLS is a mindless echo chamber

Postby Lord Randolph McDuff » Mon Apr 16, 2012 5:43 pm

rad lulz wrote:
Lord Randolph McDuff wrote:Why would this be weird at all? I don't' think you are really thinking this through..

Ok, Tech is a TTT, but the interview dude who is apparently going to ask you a weird Q literally graduated from Tech. He likes Tech. So when you say, yeah I want to live in west Texas because it is such a family oriented place, and I was so lucky to get into such a great law school out here-- he is going to like you. Why would he ask " hey, asshole, this place sucks why did you come? "

Flem he lives there.

Whelp you're still gonna look more out of place when compared to the dude who knows all that from experience because he grew up there or went to Tech for UG and can talk about Sam Houston High's football championship run back in '06 or whatever.


They are going to hire the sharper attorney.

Dude admit that "ties" is at best a tie-breaker. If the exact = dooder knew about Sam Houston High's sick run in 06 maybe he gets the gig, but the fact is that if you go to Tech and become a good writer, advocate, whatever, you can be successful there. OP is right on-- the first thing you see in the choose my school for me dealios is super misleading. A "tie-breaker" consideration should not be the first thing an applicant hears about.

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Re: TLS is a mindless echo chamber

Postby rad lulz » Mon Apr 16, 2012 5:44 pm

Lord Randolph McDuff wrote:Dude admit that "ties" is at best a tie-breaker.


I do. But there are a lot more "tied scores" than you realize. In terms of school and school performance, outside the top of the class, who will certainly have option, the vast expanse of the middle of the class looks substantially the same.

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Ludo!
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Re: TLS is a mindless echo chamber

Postby Ludo! » Mon Apr 16, 2012 5:46 pm

Lord Randolph McDuff wrote:
rad lulz wrote:
Lord Randolph McDuff wrote:Why would this be weird at all? I don't' think you are really thinking this through..

Ok, Tech is a TTT, but the interview dude who is apparently going to ask you a weird Q literally graduated from Tech. He likes Tech. So when you say, yeah I want to live in west Texas because it is such a family oriented place, and I was so lucky to get into such a great law school out here-- he is going to like you. Why would he ask " hey, asshole, this place sucks why did you come? "

Flem he lives there.

Whelp you're still gonna look more out of place when compared to the dude who knows all that from experience because he grew up there or went to Tech for UG and can talk about Sam Houston High's football championship run back in '06 or whatever.


They are going to hire the sharper attorney.

Dude admit that "ties" is at best a tie-breaker. If the exact = dooder knew about Sam Houston High's sick run in 06 maybe he gets the gig, but the fact is that if you go to Tech and become a good writer, advocate, whatever, you can be successful there. OP is right on-- the first thing you see in the choose my school for me dealios is super misleading. A "tie-breaker" consideration should not be the first thing an applicant hears about.


Dude admit that you're a 1l who has no idea what you're talking about.

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Nelson
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Re: TLS is a mindless echo chamber

Postby Nelson » Mon Apr 16, 2012 5:46 pm

romothesavior wrote:
MTBike wrote:
Nelson wrote:Restricting this discussion to schools of such crapitude means they aren't worth relocating for in the first place.


HA! now all regional schools are "craptitude" schools... WELCOME BACK TO TLS, THREAD!

That's not what he was saying. There are plenty of solid regional options. For example, CU is a fairly good school, particularly if you want to practice in Colorado. But using an example like Texas Tech? It just adds nothing to the conversation. It is almost universally a terrible option unless you have a massive scholarship to begin with.

Romo is being more diplomatic than I am. One of the reasons people on TLS ask about ties is to suss out why 0Ls want to go to law school. Most people have no articulable reason for why they want to relocate from <insert big city here> to <insert flyover state here> beyond "I got in at these schools." Most half decent legal markets have a national school right next to them so most "strong regionals" are in the middle of nowhere. Relocating to the Texas Panhandle with no ties to the area and no support network for the exciting job opportunities offered by Texas Tech is a dumb decision for some K-JD from NYC. So yeah, someone should ask him about his ties so we can find out how relocating 2000 miles for shitty job prospects fits into his career goals.

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Re: TLS is a mindless echo chamber

Postby Lord Randolph McDuff » Mon Apr 16, 2012 5:46 pm

romothesavior wrote:Seems to be a common experience for just about everyone who has, you know, actually been through legal hiring.


I got a legal job. I interviewed a bunch and got a paid 1L gig, sans ties.

Also I'm probably older and wiser than you, despite the fact you went through OCI big law meat market. Of course, if you could see the point that I have not been talking about OCI or big law the entire time....

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Emma.
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Re: TLS is a mindless echo chamber

Postby Emma. » Mon Apr 16, 2012 5:47 pm

Retake?

Lord Randolph McDuff
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Re: TLS is a mindless echo chamber

Postby Lord Randolph McDuff » Mon Apr 16, 2012 5:47 pm

Ludovico Technique wrote:
Lord Randolph McDuff wrote:
rad lulz wrote:
Lord Randolph McDuff wrote:Why would this be weird at all? I don't' think you are really thinking this through..

Ok, Tech is a TTT, but the interview dude who is apparently going to ask you a weird Q literally graduated from Tech. He likes Tech. So when you say, yeah I want to live in west Texas because it is such a family oriented place, and I was so lucky to get into such a great law school out here-- he is going to like you. Why would he ask " hey, asshole, this place sucks why did you come? "

Flem he lives there.

Whelp you're still gonna look more out of place when compared to the dude who knows all that from experience because he grew up there or went to Tech for UG and can talk about Sam Houston High's football championship run back in '06 or whatever.


They are going to hire the sharper attorney.

Dude admit that "ties" is at best a tie-breaker. If the exact = dooder knew about Sam Houston High's sick run in 06 maybe he gets the gig, but the fact is that if you go to Tech and become a good writer, advocate, whatever, you can be successful there. OP is right on-- the first thing you see in the choose my school for me dealios is super misleading. A "tie-breaker" consideration should not be the first thing an applicant hears about.


Dude admit that you're a 1l who has no idea what you're talking about.


And your a 2L! You went through OCI which has zero impact on the actual discussion that the OP started!

KEWL!

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Re: TLS is a mindless echo chamber

Postby rad lulz » Mon Apr 16, 2012 5:48 pm

Before someone comes in and says, "I did 1L hiring, I know, mmkay," 1L hiring looks nothing like 2L summer hiring and 3L post-grad hiring.

edit: and 3 posts above me, McDuff says it.
Last edited by rad lulz on Mon Apr 16, 2012 5:48 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: TLS is a mindless echo chamber

Postby RedBirds2011 » Mon Apr 16, 2012 5:48 pm

My main question is what constitutes significant ties? Maybe this has been answered before but i find it relevant to this thread. Is it necessary to have actually grown up there? Or in my case: working there for two full summers as an undergrad (cousin did bio research there for years) and knowing one prominent lawyer count (not big law, but very well known and prominent)? My fiancé (real :lol: ) also has lots of family in the same state. Yet I never grew up there despite having lots of these "ties"

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Re: TLS is a mindless echo chamber

Postby rad lulz » Mon Apr 16, 2012 5:49 pm

Lord Randolph McDuff wrote:Also I'm probably older and wiser than you

lolk

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Re: TLS is a mindless echo chamber

Postby rad lulz » Mon Apr 16, 2012 5:50 pm

RedBirds2011 wrote:My main question is what constitutes significant ties? Maybe this has been answered before but i find it relevant to this thread. Is it necessary to have actually grown up there? Or in my case: working there for two full summers as an undergrad (cousin did bio research there for years) and knowing one prominent lawyer count (not big law, but very well known and prominent)? My fiancé (real :lol: ) also has lots of family in the same state. Yet I never grew up there despite having lots of these "ties"

Out of those, the fiancee one is the best. That one's pretty good.

Edit: some markets will barely consider someone who hasn't grown up there. SC comes to mind.

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Re: TLS is a mindless echo chamber

Postby Lord Randolph McDuff » Mon Apr 16, 2012 5:50 pm

rad lulz wrote:
Lord Randolph McDuff wrote:Dude admit that "ties" is at best a tie-breaker.


I do. But there are a lot more "tied scores" than you realize. In terms of school and school performance, outside the top of the class, who will certainly have option, the vast expanse of the middle of the class looks substantially the same.


If you are right about this, which I doubt, or if you are right about how many law school kiddos from State U have no intention of working there, which I guess you might be I really do not know, then I can see why we are disagreeing.

I'll think more about the "tied" score thingie, and will try to examine my buddies who went to State U to see if they want to work in the area or not. I know at CU everyone pretty much wanted CO, but, hey, if I accuse you of not being able to see beyond your experience, I have to be prepared that I may be doing the same.

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Re: TLS is a mindless echo chamber

Postby MTBike » Mon Apr 16, 2012 5:51 pm

RedBirds2011 wrote:My main question is what constitutes significant ties? Maybe this has been answered before but i find it relevant to this thread. Is it necessary to have actually grown up there? Or in my case: working there for two full summers as an undergrad (cousin did bio research there for years) and knowing one prominent lawyer count (not big law, but very well known and prominent)? My fiancé (real :lol: ) also has lots of family in the same state. Yet I never grew up there despite having lots of these "ties"


From what I understand... Ties are considered any believable reason you can give to stay in a region. Fiance, family, grew up there, etc...

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Re: TLS is a mindless echo chamber

Postby Lord Randolph McDuff » Mon Apr 16, 2012 5:52 pm

flem wrote:
Lord Randolph McDuff wrote:
They are going to hire the sharper attorney.

Dude admit that "ties" is at best a tie-breaker. If the exact = dooder knew about Sam Houston High's sick run in 06 maybe he gets the gig, but the fact is that if you go to Tech and become a good writer, advocate, whatever, you can be successful there. OP is right on-- the first thing you see in the choose my school for me dealios is super misleading. A "tie-breaker" consideration should not be the first thing an applicant hears about.


I'm not saying you're right or wrong, but you severely underestimate how insular southern and midwestern markets are.

Someone from out of state (and not an adjacent state) who goes to law school at South Carolina is going to be looked at with extreme suspicion.

Colorado is a place that is much less ties-centric.


You may be right. I'm from the South, though, and the people that would hire the dumb local guy don't exactly end up becoming attorneys. The firms I know back home would hire the smarter dude, every time.

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Re: TLS is a mindless echo chamber

Postby Emma. » Mon Apr 16, 2012 5:53 pm

From my own (admittedly anectodal, unscientific) experience:

I bid on a firm at a diversity event and didn't get an interview even though I had a very strong transcript/resume and had met and had a great conversation with the hiring partner. Ended up emailing the partner to see if I could get a screening interview. She told me my resume had probably gone straight in the trash because it didn't indicate ties to the market, and probably no one even looked at my transcript.

Ended up getting screener, callback, etc., but only because I had met that partner and took the time to email her. Almost every interview I had in this market asked a LOT of questions about ties and it clearly is a very live issue in that market.

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Re: TLS is a mindless echo chamber

Postby rad lulz » Mon Apr 16, 2012 5:54 pm

Lord Randolph McDuff wrote:
rad lulz wrote:
Lord Randolph McDuff wrote:Dude admit that "ties" is at best a tie-breaker.


I do. But there are a lot more "tied scores" than you realize. In terms of school and school performance, outside the top of the class, who will certainly have option, the vast expanse of the middle of the class looks substantially the same.


If you are right about this, which I doubt, or if you are right about how many law school kiddos from State U have no intention of working there, which I guess you might be I really do not know, then I can see why we are disagreeing.

I'll think more about the "tied" score thingie, and will try to examine my buddies who went to State U to see if they want to work in the area or not. I know at CU everyone pretty much wanted CO, but, hey, if I accuse you of not being able to see beyond your experience, I have to be prepared that I may be doing the same.


I have met plenty of dudebros who go to UF/FSU who are like "this school is the tits; I can't wait to work in DC or ATL. I could work in Jax I guess if I HAD to." Or some variation of "just go to law school and pass the state bar of where you want, and you are good, DAWG."

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romothesavior
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Re: TLS is a mindless echo chamber

Postby romothesavior » Mon Apr 16, 2012 5:54 pm

Lord Randolph McDuff wrote:They are going to hire the sharper attorney.

Dude admit that "ties" is at best a tie-breaker. If the exact = dooder knew about Sam Houston High's sick run in 06 maybe he gets the gig, but the fact is that if you go to Tech and become a good writer, advocate, whatever, you can be successful there. OP is right on-- the first thing you see in the choose my school for me dealios is super misleading. A "tie-breaker" consideration should not be the first thing an applicant hears about.

Your conception of "tiebreaker" is wrong because your conception of "tie" is wrong. It's not like a person with top 12% grades is necessarily viewed as better by a firm than someone with top 13% grades. They certainly aren't viewed as being the "sharper attorney" (lolololololol). Once you get into the CB stage, it becomes less about grades and more about other factors. This isn't a football game where tie means exactly equal numbers. Have "ties" breaks a "tie" in the sense that it is one factor among many that firms consider, and some firms are very interested in this ties shit. I didn't make up that quote from the hiring attorney a page or two back. And his view isn't unique either. You have a much tougher climb in convincing an employer if you are from somewhere else. I guess CU is just the one lone exception in the whole legal world, because people I know from Iowa, Indiana, Illinois, Georgia, etc. have had this same exact experience.

If you have elite grades, you will have options almost anywhere. But if you are in that middling group (where most people are), you better bring something else to the table. Ties can be one of those somethings because it can help make you a better interview and make you more attractive for a firm thinking long term about retention.

Anyways, this is getting to be circular. Your 1L wisdom is infallible and trumps the pages and pages of 2Ls and 3Ls who disagree with you.

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Re: TLS is a mindless echo chamber

Postby MTBike » Mon Apr 16, 2012 5:55 pm

Emma. wrote:From my own (admittedly anectodal, unscientific) experience:

I bid on a firm at a diversity event and didn't get an interview even though I had a very strong transcript/resume and had met and had a great conversation with the hiring partner. Ended up emailing the partner to see if I could get a screening interview. She told me my resume had probably gone straight in the trash because it didn't indicate ties to the market, and probably no one even looked at my transcript.

Ended up getting screener, callback, etc., but only because I had met that partner and took the time to email her. Almost every interview I had in this market asked a LOT of questions about ties and it clearly is a very live issue in that market.

Which market?

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Re: TLS is a mindless echo chamber

Postby Lord Randolph McDuff » Mon Apr 16, 2012 5:55 pm

Emma. wrote:From my own (admittedly anectodal, unscientific) experience:

I bid on a firm at a diversity event and didn't get an interview even though I had a very strong transcript/resume and had met and had a great conversation with the hiring partner. Ended up emailing the partner to see if I could get a screening interview. She told me my resume had probably gone straight in the trash because it didn't indicate ties to the market, and probably no one even looked at my transcript.

Ended up getting screener, callback, etc., but only because I had met that partner and took the time to email her. Almost every interview I had in this market asked a LOT of questions about ties and it clearly is a very live issue in that market.


I wish the OP would come back and re-clarify that he/she wasn't talking about big law hiring. The Q is literally completely different. Haha I'm starting to lose it.




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