TLS is a mindless echo chamber

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Right about the "ties?"

Yes-"ties" are an accurate, albeit recent discovery by TLS.
64
40%
No-"ties," along with 40% of everything on this site = mindless bullshit
39
24%
I don't know, but "ties" may be overstated
26
16%
I for realz don't know
32
20%
 
Total votes: 161

de5igual
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Re: TLS is a mindless echo chamber

Postby de5igual » Mon Apr 16, 2012 5:07 pm

Lord Randolph McDuff wrote:
flem wrote:Bro, ties to a region are important to attend a school in that region because they are important in searching for legal employment there afterwards.


Dude. Point is that if you went to the school in that region, you have "ties."

You just went to the same law school that all the hiring partners went to. You are committed to the region because you spent so much time/money there. You're fine, man.


dude, but it's not. regardless of the size of the employer, one of the first questions always asked is "are you from here?" or "have you ever lived here before law school?" failure to answer those questions correctly (and it's hard to if you lack any real ties) results in a giant mark against you from the outset of the interview. yes, you can overcome this stigma, but it's a stigma nonetheless that can be avoided if you go to a school that feeds into a market where you already have ties.

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romothesavior
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Re: TLS is a mindless echo chamber

Postby romothesavior » Mon Apr 16, 2012 5:07 pm

MTBike wrote:
flem wrote:
Lord Randolph McDuff wrote:
Dude. Point is that if you went to the school in that region, you have "ties."

You just went to the same law school that all the hiring partners went to. You are committed to the region because you spent so much time/money there. You're fine, man.


It may be. But in your case at CU:

You have two bros, one is from Colorado, the other is from Missouri.

Both have the same grades and same soft factors. Both are not sperglords and interview equally well. Who is more likely to get hired?


You are correct that the "ties" individual would most likely get hired. But the bolded seems unlikely...

Uh, why? Law students generally are a morass of similarly situated people with similar backgrounds and characteristics.

And yes, grades differentiate a person, as do interviewing skills, etc. But these aren't things you can predict coming in.

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ThreeRivers
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Re: TLS is a mindless echo chamber

Postby ThreeRivers » Mon Apr 16, 2012 5:09 pm

I read some of these thread, and I found it quite interesting

I have a question for those who have some experience with OCI and such

I get that going to a school is a "tie" but you still won't have as much of a "tie" as someone who grew up in that city, but what about schools in which most students aren't local

I've asked about certain schools that have about a 10% in-state student body and was asked if I was from there... I get that those 10% of students may have an advantage over me, but wouldn't the fact 90% aren't from there either limit the must be from there logic?

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Re: TLS is a mindless echo chamber

Postby Lord Randolph McDuff » Mon Apr 16, 2012 5:10 pm

romothesavior wrote:
Lord Randolph McDuff wrote:A big law firm makes a shit ton of money. They take associates away from billing and make them go find new meat-- this costs money. Associates do not want to waste firms time and not hire anyone. Associates, therefor, think long and hard about who is actually going to accept their offer. They also, and at the CB stage, the partners, at the behest of the business, think long and hard about who is going to grind it out over the long haul and be "contributor." If someone, from say, Vandy, gets a big law job in Miami but then wants to move back closer to home in ATL, firm in Miami just took a big loss (which in big law world, means lost potential revenue). Add it all up-- big law cares about "ties."

And small firms generally care about it more. Small firms spend less raw money on recruiting, summer salaries, and first-year salaries than big firms, but it is a significantly bigger investment for a firm of 25 people to pay a $70,000 salary to a first-year than it is for a firm of 500 people to pay a salary of $160,000. The bigger the firm, the more likely it is that attrition is being accounted for. The economics of your argument actually break against your conclusion; small firms are far more likely to care about "ties" than big firms for all the reasons you just laid out.

I mean yeah, there are small sweatshop firms that will churn associates out at $40,000 a year and don't provide much in the way of partnership opportunities (think crappy ID work), and they probably don't care much about "ties" or long-term commitment. I can think of a number of these types of firms off the top of my head. But the small and midsize firms that hire people with the intention of grooming them and hopefully having them become partner someday (in other words, the ones worth working for) are a hell of a lot more picky. Are there exceptions? Yep. I got an offer from a firm of 30-50 in Kansas City without ever having set foot in the city before my CB. But for most firms like these, they care a great deal about your level of commitment. And as others have said, there is also the "connection" factor involved with ties that can help tremendously at the interview phase.

I find this thread timely because I just had an email exchange this morning with a hiring partner at a very solid small firm in town on this topic. His email said that it is "hard for firms like us to take a leap with people from out of town. We view the summer experience as an investment." He went on to tell me that one of their hires this year is a non-local, but this is a "rare exception" for their firm. Limited sample size? Absolutely. Are there exceptions? By his own words, yes. But this is a common theme for hiring partners in parochial secondary markets.

Finally, I will concede that my experience is different than yours. I am sure that things operate differently at a flagship state school, as compared to a quasi-regional, quasi-national school like Vanderbilt or WUSTL. It could very well be (and probably is true) that ties are less of an issue for students at CU than at WUSTL. But I know people at UIUC, Iowa, Indiana, Ohio, etc., both in real life and on TLS, and most would disagree with you. There is a reason that pretty much the only people agreeing with you are 0Ls and 1Ls.


The first paragraph is very logical, but keep in mind-- I'm talking about choosing schools, not trying to get X job at small firm in Wisconsin. Point is that small firms definitely care that you are going to stick around. But Romo: If you go to the local law firm that they all went to, they will think you are going to stick around unless you give them some reason to believe otherwise. "Ties" are overstated for people considering Texas Tech, because so long as they like you down there, think your going to contribute, they will hire you. West Texas is a unique place and most people would probably rather live elsewhere. However, if you spend three years at Tech and then apply to a shit ton of local jobs, you have "ties," or whatever the hell that words means in this context. They get it -- you are going to work in west Texas.

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Nelson
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Re: TLS is a mindless echo chamber

Postby Nelson » Mon Apr 16, 2012 5:11 pm

Restricting this discussion to schools of such crapitude means they aren't worth relocating for in the first place.

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Re: TLS is a mindless echo chamber

Postby rad lulz » Mon Apr 16, 2012 5:12 pm

romothesavior wrote:
MTBike wrote:
flem wrote:
Lord Randolph McDuff wrote:
Dude. Point is that if you went to the school in that region, you have "ties."

You just went to the same law school that all the hiring partners went to. You are committed to the region because you spent so much time/money there. You're fine, man.


It may be. But in your case at CU:

You have two bros, one is from Colorado, the other is from Missouri.

Both have the same grades and same soft factors. Both are not sperglords and interview equally well. Who is more likely to get hired?


You are correct that the "ties" individual would most likely get hired. But the bolded seems unlikely...

Uh, why? Law students generally are a morass of similarly situated people with similar backgrounds and characteristics.

And yes, grades differentiate a person, as do interviewing skills, etc. But these aren't things you can predict coming in.

This. Outside the top and bottom of the class, the remainder is largely an undifferentiated morass.

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MTBike
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Re: TLS is a mindless echo chamber

Postby MTBike » Mon Apr 16, 2012 5:13 pm

Nelson wrote:Restricting this discussion to schools of such crapitude means they aren't worth relocating for in the first place.


HA! now all regional schools are "craptitude" schools... WELCOME BACK TO TLS, THREAD!

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Re: TLS is a mindless echo chamber

Postby Lord Randolph McDuff » Mon Apr 16, 2012 5:14 pm

f0bolous wrote:
Lord Randolph McDuff wrote:
flem wrote:Bro, ties to a region are important to attend a school in that region because they are important in searching for legal employment there afterwards.


Dude. Point is that if you went to the school in that region, you have "ties."

You just went to the same law school that all the hiring partners went to. You are committed to the region because you spent so much time/money there. You're fine, man.


dude, but it's not. regardless of the size of the employer, one of the first questions always asked is "are you from here?" or "have you ever lived here before law school?" failure to answer those questions correctly (and it's hard to if you lack any real ties) results in a giant mark against you from the outset of the interview. yes, you can overcome this stigma, but it's a stigma nonetheless that can be avoided if you go to a school that feeds into a market where you already have ties.


Why? Because you just said all that, is that why its true?

I've only been asked why Colorado in about half of my in reviews, and in the other half they only asked to be friendly and get everybody sharing. There is no way you would go to CU and not want to work out here. I mean, I guess some people do, but would they then be interviewing for a local job??? Still, I haven't met one person in my class who doesn't want to work in CO. "Ties" doesn't mean OOO I loved your high school mascot!!! It means, are you going to stay and contribute.

You go to a T-14?

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MTBike
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Re: TLS is a mindless echo chamber

Postby MTBike » Mon Apr 16, 2012 5:15 pm

rad lulz wrote:This. Outside the top and bottom of the class, the remainder is largely an undifferentiated morass.


Good point... however, it seems unlikely that everyone in this mass of the middle 50% is going to interview equally. Shouldn't/isn't that more important to employers?
Last edited by MTBike on Mon Apr 16, 2012 5:22 pm, edited 3 times in total.

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Re: TLS is a mindless echo chamber

Postby Lord Randolph McDuff » Mon Apr 16, 2012 5:16 pm

rad lulz wrote:This. Outside the top and bottom of the class, the remainder is largely an undifferentiated morass.


So where someone went to high school is going to play in..... Maybe in Mississippi, but not to the point where general advice can be slung at 100% of 0Ls wanting to attend every school.

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romothesavior
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Re: TLS is a mindless echo chamber

Postby romothesavior » Mon Apr 16, 2012 5:17 pm

mrwarre85 wrote:I completely understand that "ties" are critical for big law firms. My OP is about the fact that TLS had made "ties" the biggest consideration for any 0L looking at going to a regional school, despite the fact that going to the regional school will provide said 0L with essentially the same chance of success in the forum state as homer simpson from down the road. Just look at the forum: In 100% of the State U v. State U match ups, "ties" are talked about more than anything else, in every single one of them. However, when I looked back three years, "ties" was literally never mentioned.

I've noticed some people think "ties" will help the local kid at the local school get the local job, but I think this is just lazy thinking. Granted, there might be some minuscule boost at a fraction of employers, but in reality that might be the deciding consideration in 1 out of 24233424 cases, where in the rest the job is given to the person who is better liked, smarter, harder working, more personable/might bring in business one day, etc. Yet, "ties" seem like the most important thing for 0Ls to consider when picking a law school per current TLS mindless groupthink.

I hope this helps to clarify my comment. FWIW, I can imagine it might be hard to understand this type of thing if you go to a private and or national school, where many of the students only attend for the school and not for the chance of employment nearby.

Please see my post above (the long one) with a quote from a hiring partner on the subject. It's not TLS groupthink. It is quite literally the thought process of people making these decisions. Again, I'll admit that it is probably less of an issue for the state school people, but I know plenty of people at flagship state schools who would completely disagree with you and McDuff.

As to ties being "literally never mentioned" during your three years, did you like... uh... ever talk to a legal employer? Or ever have an interview? I don't think I ever had a single interview where "Why X city?" didn't come up. It was often the first question. I had a damn good answer to that question, but when I look at the firms I did CBs with and interviewed with (and was ultimately rejected by), I notice that their classes are usually full of people with STL ties. My, "I love the city, I came to WUSTL to stay in STL, etc." answer just wasn't as good as the local kids' "I grew up in Ladue and went to John Burroughs High and played lacrosse with your son Johnny."

Finally: (bolded because I think it is important), no one is saying ties are necessary or sufficient. Just that they are a boost, and can be a big boost. I would never argue they are necessary or sufficient. Again, I had an offer in a city I never stepped foot in. I am working this summer at a firm in a city I have no tangible ties to (although for some cities, including the one I am going to, it generally seems that being a "regional native" is enough). But I am not naive enough to extrapolate from my experience and say that ties are therefore meaningless. On the whole, they can make a pretty big difference, and it seems like almost every law student on TLS would agree.

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Re: TLS is a mindless echo chamber

Postby Lord Randolph McDuff » Mon Apr 16, 2012 5:18 pm

flem wrote:
You do realize that you're basically agreeing that ties are important but they're just easier to get by attending that regional school. Right? I'm not being a dick, I just want to make sure I'm reading this correctly.


Haha tflem, I'm not trying to be a dick, but that is precisely what I've been saying the whole time.

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Re: TLS is a mindless echo chamber

Postby ThreeRivers » Mon Apr 16, 2012 5:22 pm

ThreeRivers wrote:I read some of these thread, and I found it quite interesting

I have a question for those who have some experience with OCI and such

I get that going to a school is a "tie" but you still won't have as much of a "tie" as someone who grew up in that city, but what about schools in which most students aren't local

I've asked about certain schools that have about a 10% in-state student body and was asked if I was from there... I get that those 10% of students may have an advantage over me, but wouldn't the fact 90% aren't from there either limit the must be from there logic?

Bumping this, very curious on some opinions lol

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Re: TLS is a mindless echo chamber

Postby Lord Randolph McDuff » Mon Apr 16, 2012 5:23 pm

romothesavior wrote:My, "I love the city, I came to WUSTL to stay in STL, etc." answer just wasn't as good as the local kids' "I grew up in Ladue and went to John Burroughs High and played lacrosse with your son Johnny."


This makes sense. You are in a different situation from the one I am talking about, though. People at WUSTL might go work somewhere else, people at U of Montana are going to work in Montana. I don't know how much I need to repeat myself here. It's upsetting.

Q for your State U bros: did they honestly have trouble working 100 miles from their law school because of "ties," or are you referring to their troubles during OCI trying to get CHI-Town??

Remember, we aren't talking about OCI because we aren't talking about big law, and we are certainly not talking about trying to get a job in an area where the school is not located.

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Re: TLS is a mindless echo chamber

Postby Lord Randolph McDuff » Mon Apr 16, 2012 5:25 pm

ThreeRivers wrote:
ThreeRivers wrote:I read some of these thread, and I found it quite interesting

I have a question for those who have some experience with OCI and such

I get that going to a school is a "tie" but you still won't have as much of a "tie" as someone who grew up in that city, but what about schools in which most students aren't local

I've asked about certain schools that have about a 10% in-state student body and was asked if I was from there... I get that those 10% of students may have an advantage over me, but wouldn't the fact 90% aren't from there either limit the must be from there logic?

Bumping this, very curious on some opinions lol


If you go to school at a place where an interview would question whether or not you are committed to their firm long term, you are going to have a "ties" problem. Essentially anyone who moves out of state to attend a T-25 is going to have to deal with "ties."

If you move out of state to attend U of Oregon, then you work in Oregon both summers, then you apply for jobs in Oregon, you will be fine.

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Re: TLS is a mindless echo chamber

Postby rad lulz » Mon Apr 16, 2012 5:26 pm

MTBike wrote:
rad lulz wrote:This. Outside the top and bottom of the class, the remainder is largely an undifferentiated morass.


Good point... however, it seems unlikely that everyone in this mass of the middle 50% is going to interview equally. Shouldn't/isn't that more important to employers?

Strong ties help you connect to the interviewer on a personal level. They add greatly to your interview.

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Re: TLS is a mindless echo chamber

Postby Lord Randolph McDuff » Mon Apr 16, 2012 5:27 pm

flem wrote:
Lord Randolph McDuff wrote:
This makes sense. You are in a different situation from the one I am talking about, though. People at WUSTL might go work somewhere else, people at U of Montana are going to work in Montana. I don't know how much I need to repeat myself here. It's upsetting.

Q for your State U bros: did they honestly have trouble working 100 miles from their law school because of "ties," or are you referring to their troubles during OCI trying to get CHI-Town??

Remember, we aren't talking about OCI because we aren't talking about big law, and we are certainly not talking about trying to get a job in an area where the school is not located.


Wouldn't it just be weird/hurdle to overcome in a job interview? Why would you relocate for a 3rd tier law school with no national placement (redundant) where you have no ties to?

Just seems like something you could avoid by going elsewhere.


Why would this be weird at all? I don't' think you are really thinking this through..

Ok, Tech is a TTT, but the interview dude who is apparently going to ask you a weird Q literally graduated from Tech. He likes Tech. So when you say, yeah I want to live in west Texas because it is such a family oriented place, and I was so lucky to get into such a great law school out here-- he is going to like you. Why would he ask " hey, asshole, this place sucks why did you come? "

Flem he lives there.

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Re: TLS is a mindless echo chamber

Postby romothesavior » Mon Apr 16, 2012 5:28 pm

MTBike wrote:
Nelson wrote:Restricting this discussion to schools of such crapitude means they aren't worth relocating for in the first place.


HA! now all regional schools are "craptitude" schools... WELCOME BACK TO TLS, THREAD!

That's not what he was saying. There are plenty of solid regional options. For example, CU is a fairly good school, particularly if you want to practice in Colorado. But using an example like Texas Tech? It just adds nothing to the conversation. It is almost universally a terrible option unless you have a massive scholarship to begin with.

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Re: TLS is a mindless echo chamber

Postby RedBirds2011 » Mon Apr 16, 2012 5:28 pm

rad lulz wrote:
MTBike wrote:
rad lulz wrote:This. Outside the top and bottom of the class, the remainder is largely an undifferentiated morass.


Good point... however, it seems unlikely that everyone in this mass of the middle 50% is going to interview equally. Shouldn't/isn't that more important to employers?

Strong ties help you connect to the interviewer on a personal level. They add greatly to your interview.


I think we can all agree that ties can only help and certainly do not hurt. But its probably also a good idea to not get so unbelievably worked up about this stuff.
Last edited by RedBirds2011 on Mon Apr 16, 2012 5:30 pm, edited 1 time in total.

rad lulz
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Re: TLS is a mindless echo chamber

Postby rad lulz » Mon Apr 16, 2012 5:28 pm

Lord Randolph McDuff wrote:
rad lulz wrote:This. Outside the top and bottom of the class, the remainder is largely an undifferentiated morass.


So where someone went to high school is going to play in..... Maybe in Mississippi, but not to the point where general advice can be slung at 100% of 0Ls wanting to attend every school.

That's actually the exact opposite conclusion that follows, since all law schools have some form of curve...

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Re: TLS is a mindless echo chamber

Postby rad lulz » Mon Apr 16, 2012 5:29 pm

RedBirds2011 wrote:
rad lulz wrote:
MTBike wrote:
rad lulz wrote:This. Outside the top and bottom of the class, the remainder is largely an undifferentiated morass.


Good point... however, it seems unlikely that everyone in this mass of the middle 50% is going to interview equally. Shouldn't/isn't that more important to employers?

Strong ties help you connect to the interviewer on a personal level. They add greatly to your interview.


I think we can all agree that ties can only help not hurt but not to get so incredibly worked up over it.

Well since plenty of people have strong ones at these regional schools, and there aren't enough jobs to go around, it's almost like they hurt.

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Re: TLS is a mindless echo chamber

Postby Lord Randolph McDuff » Mon Apr 16, 2012 5:29 pm

rad lulz wrote:
MTBike wrote:
rad lulz wrote:This. Outside the top and bottom of the class, the remainder is largely an undifferentiated morass.


Good point... however, it seems unlikely that everyone in this mass of the middle 50% is going to interview equally. Shouldn't/isn't that more important to employers?

Strong ties help you connect to the interviewer on a personal level. They add greatly to your interview.


For you.

You go to Vandy. You have options and are likely really ambitious--they really, really want to know you are going to stick around.

You are having horrible trouble empathizing with the majority of law students who don't go to Vandy-esqe schools.

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Re: TLS is a mindless echo chamber

Postby rad lulz » Mon Apr 16, 2012 5:31 pm

Lord Randolph McDuff wrote:Why would this be weird at all? I don't' think you are really thinking this through..

Ok, Tech is a TTT, but the interview dude who is apparently going to ask you a weird Q literally graduated from Tech. He likes Tech. So when you say, yeah I want to live in west Texas because it is such a family oriented place, and I was so lucky to get into such a great law school out here-- he is going to like you. Why would he ask " hey, asshole, this place sucks why did you come? "

Flem he lives there.

Whelp you're still gonna look more out of place when compared to the dude who knows all that from experience because he grew up there or went to Tech for UG and can talk about Sam Houston High's football championship run back in '06 or whatever.

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Re: TLS is a mindless echo chamber

Postby romothesavior » Mon Apr 16, 2012 5:31 pm

Lord Randolph McDuff wrote:For you.

You go to Vandy. You have options and are likely really ambitious--they really, really want to know you are going to stick around.

You are having horrible trouble empathizing with the majority of law students who don't go to Vandy-esqe schools.

Okay man, your argument was at least somewhat coherent before even if I disagreed with it, but now it is falling off the rails.

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Re: TLS is a mindless echo chamber

Postby de5igual » Mon Apr 16, 2012 5:32 pm

Lord Randolph McDuff wrote:
f0bolous wrote:
Lord Randolph McDuff wrote:
flem wrote:Bro, ties to a region are important to attend a school in that region because they are important in searching for legal employment there afterwards.


Dude. Point is that if you went to the school in that region, you have "ties."

You just went to the same law school that all the hiring partners went to. You are committed to the region because you spent so much time/money there. You're fine, man.


dude, but it's not. regardless of the size of the employer, one of the first questions always asked is "are you from here?" or "have you ever lived here before law school?" failure to answer those questions correctly (and it's hard to if you lack any real ties) results in a giant mark against you from the outset of the interview. yes, you can overcome this stigma, but it's a stigma nonetheless that can be avoided if you go to a school that feeds into a market where you already have ties.


Why? Because you just said all that, is that why its true?

I've only been asked why Colorado in about half of my in reviews, and in the other half they only asked to be friendly and get everybody sharing. There is no way you would go to CU and not want to work out here. I mean, I guess some people do, but would they then be interviewing for a local job??? Still, I haven't met one person in my class who doesn't want to work in CO. "Ties" doesn't mean OOO I loved your high school mascot!!! It means, are you going to stay and contribute.

You go to a T-14?


Because my experience isn't unique and has been corroborated by others' experiences on TLS and IRL. I'm glad that you've never dealt with it, but most people I've spoken to have. I don't think anyone said "ties" had to include growing up in the region, but in many cases, just going to the local school in itself isn't enough.

And no, I don't go to a T-14. I did end up getting offers in this region without real ties, but OCI would have been much different if I were a born-and-bred Texan.




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