TLS is a mindless echo chamber

(Applications Advice, Letters of Recommendation . . . )

Right about the "ties?"

Yes-"ties" are an accurate, albeit recent discovery by TLS.
64
40%
No-"ties," along with 40% of everything on this site = mindless bullshit
39
24%
I don't know, but "ties" may be overstated
26
16%
I for realz don't know
32
20%
 
Total votes: 161

mrwarre85
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TLS is a mindless echo chamber

Postby mrwarre85 » Mon Apr 16, 2012 1:08 am

Who was the fist person to claim that "ties" to a given market were so important? I went back on the TLS archives and couldn't find a single mention of "ties" in all the countless threads from 2009.

Surely if you moved from Manhattan to Fayetteville, Arkansas to attend UA you may have trouble fitting in with the yocals and this might hinder your job hunt. However, the first thing an employer is going to consider is whether you are going to add value to the business. If you are going to add more value than the "homer," you are going to get the gig.

Best I can tell, it looks like about six months ago someone mentioned "ties" and created a plausible argument around "ties" and now the first thing everyone asks applicants is where they have "ties." Hilarious.

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Lawquacious
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Re: TLS is a mindless echo chamber

Postby Lawquacious » Mon Apr 16, 2012 1:10 am

0L?

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alwayssunnyinfl
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Re: TLS is a mindless echo chamber

Postby alwayssunnyinfl » Mon Apr 16, 2012 1:11 am

Lawquacious wrote:0L?

I think for most 0L's (myself included) the last option is the only truthful one

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RedBirds2011
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Re: TLS is a mindless echo chamber

Postby RedBirds2011 » Mon Apr 16, 2012 1:14 am

The correct answer is...it almost always depends. So yes, no, and maybe. There's your probable answer ;)

In short, some firms might care. Some firms might not. You really can't just say ties are or are not important. I would think they would definitely come up as important within certain job searches.

de5igual
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Re: TLS is a mindless echo chamber

Postby de5igual » Mon Apr 16, 2012 1:19 am

even before the economy burst, ties have been important in secondary markets, but were markedly less so in any of the primary markets. thus, back then, T14 were regarded as "national" for being able to place people in these markets with little to no ties. ever since 2009/2010, even large markets like Norcal, Socal, and Chicago have become much more ties-conscious, and even coming from a T14, it's a major uphill battle absent stellar grades and/or ties.

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bk1
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Re: TLS is a mindless echo chamber

Postby bk1 » Mon Apr 16, 2012 1:19 am

It is an echo chamber but that doesn't make it wrong. People on TLS have talked about ties in regards to job applications for a while but nobody really applied it to school choice. The problem with your analysis is that you can't know prior to law school whether you're going to "add more value" (which I'm going to take to mean have better grades) than the kid with ties. On top of that, a person adds less value to the business when there is a significant chance that that person will leave all of a sudden because they are an out of towner who is settling for a job in a location they do not care for.

It's also the effort of some posters to inject certain things into the TLS consciousness. Just because nobody talked about it before doesn't mean it wasn't true. A lot of my recent posts on school choice have emphasized the risks associated with not staying in biglaw long enough to pay off debt and that isn't something that people generally talk about (usually people talk about debt in the sense of what happens when you don't get biglaw). Just because nobody really talks about it doesn't mean it didn't exist prior to me trying to emphasize it (it certainly did exist prior to that). There's also instances of certain people have tried to analyze employment data to give a better picture and that has become something that people link to when discussing schools (see aliarrow, rayiner, etc).

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Lawquacious
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Re: TLS is a mindless echo chamber

Postby Lawquacious » Mon Apr 16, 2012 1:20 am

Surprisingly, market ties unfortunately are a big deal in legal hiring (some above have now beat me to the point and given sound feedback). It sucks, but it is definitely for real. If you have high enough grades and go to a good enough school it may be less of a factor, but it is still often asked about in interviews and looked for by prospective employers in law. Some markets stress ties less than others, but they nevertheless seem to be a frequent and important issue in legal hiring.

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Borg
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Re: TLS is a mindless echo chamber

Postby Borg » Mon Apr 16, 2012 1:25 am

Think it depends on the kinds of jobs you are looking at. If you can get interviews in smaller markets through OCI, ties are probably less important as those firms are just looking for talent and think they can convince their summers to stick around. However, if you are approaching firms via mass mailing etc. and are targeting some smaller firms, it can help to have some ties because those people might be able to find ways to network you into the local legal network. I don't think ties are a prerequisite at all and have friends who got jobs in totally random markets, but it can help sometimes.

In general I think it's important to take everything on here with a grain of salt. It's like Above the Law or any other hyperbolic source. Lots of people freaking out and spouting massively oversimplified platitudes. I think the problem stems from people trying to give general advice when things actually can differ dramatically from person to person and school to school.

rad lulz
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Re: TLS is a mindless echo chamber

Postby rad lulz » Mon Apr 16, 2012 1:27 am

f0bolous wrote:even before the economy burst, ties have been important in secondary markets, but were markedly less so in any of the primary markets. thus, back then, T14 were regarded as "national" for being able to place people in these markets with little to no ties. ever since 2009/2010, even large markets like Norcal, Socal, and Chicago have become much more ties-conscious, and even coming from a T14, it's a major uphill battle absent stellar grades and/or ties.

This.
It is an echo chamber but that doesn't make it wrong. People on TLS have talked about ties in regards to job applications for a while but nobody really applied it to school choice.

And this.

As a dude who applied in a ton of secondary markets come OCI and talked to a lot of people about a lot of secondary markets, I'm probably one of the poasters BK is referring to. When I applied in 2009-2010 I knew what ties were from browsing the employment forum, but no one was bringing them in to the context of school choice. It was always just "go where you want to practice." Which a decent general rule, but from my experience in secondary markets (and a bunch of other poasters here, like f0b, romo, etc.), it's much more nuanced, and something to be worth thinking about when picking schools.

Keep in mind that the knowledge factor and experience level of TLS has gone up, especially in re employment. Back in 2009 when I started reading, you would still have people telling people to go to 'Dozo or Chi-Kent or whatever. No longer. A lot of the more experienced poaster wrt admissions have now gone through OCI and know what they're talking about.

imchuckbass58
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Re: TLS is a mindless echo chamber

Postby imchuckbass58 » Mon Apr 16, 2012 1:35 am

mrwarre85 wrote:Best I can tell, it looks like about six months ago someone mentioned "ties" and created a plausible argument around "ties" and now the first thing everyone asks applicants is where they have "ties." Hilarious.


Well, I'm willing to believe that TLS overstates the importance at ties, but from my own experience at OCI, it seems like most firms considered them pretty important. I bid on NY and CA, and literally every CA firm grilled me about my ties to CA and reasons for wanting to come out there. Comparing callback/offer results between the two markets, it seems like my answer wasn't good enough, so take that for what it's worth.

It's also not just TLS - career services will often discourage you from bidding on many markets unless you have ties or a compelling reason to be there, even at top schools.

rad lulz
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Re: TLS is a mindless echo chamber

Postby rad lulz » Mon Apr 16, 2012 1:38 am

Borg wrote:If you can get interviews in smaller markets through OCI, ties are probably less important as those firms are just looking for talent and think they can convince their summers to stick around.

Not really. Those firms generally show up to OCI hoping to talk to the kids with ties from those schools, though there are exceptions.

ahnhub
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Re: TLS is a mindless echo chamber

Postby ahnhub » Mon Apr 16, 2012 1:42 am

Borg wrote: In general I think it's important to take everything on here with a grain of salt. It's like Above the Law or any other hyperbolic source. Lots of people freaking out and spouting massively oversimplified platitudes. I think the problem stems from people trying to give general advice when things actually can differ dramatically from person to person and school to school.


Yeah this. TLS has been invaluable to me so far. I know lots of people who went to law school, and I am so much better-informed than they were at a similar stage it's ridiculous. But even the people who are very informative tend to become hyperbolic when it relates to their own prejudices/experiences.

I know someone who went through OCI in 2006 at a T-14, and applied to literally every market--NorCal, SoCal, New York, DC, without any ties to any of them and without any good reason for wanting firm/market. He openly admitted he was just sort of taking the shot gun approach to all his interviewers. Basically he thought going to a prestigious school would open doors magically everywhere, and he was wrong--he struck out in a year it was really, really hard to strike out at any T-14. So I know not to do that, at least. (He ended up doing fine--he did a clerkship and now works at a mid-sized firm).

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tyro
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Re: TLS is a mindless echo chamber

Postby tyro » Mon Apr 16, 2012 1:44 am

bk1 wrote:A person adds less value to the business when there is a significant chance that that person will leave all of a sudden because they are an out of towner who is settling for a job in a location they do not care for.

Also, ties are especially important when considering a new region that isn't generally popular. For instance, someone from NY who wants to take $$$ at Nebraska. Firms have to be skeptical because they need people to stay for ~6 years. I said this one other time (and got the idea from a 2L) but firms are going to be more interested in someone who will stay in a given region regardless of the decision to hire that person. Unless it's a t14 or an otherwise popular area, it seems like the will stay versus willing to take work there is big when it comes to firms and regionality. If you take the perspective of the firm, it's simply a lesser risk most of the time to take the person who is from that area because they're less of a 'flight risk'.

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Richie Tenenbaum
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Re: TLS is a mindless echo chamber

Postby Richie Tenenbaum » Mon Apr 16, 2012 1:46 am

So, yes, ties to an area when choosing a school can be overstated at times. But it can be a factor, especially with lower ranked schools in insular markets. Sometimes attending a school in an area might be enough to show local employers you want to live there. But many times that's not going to be enough. If you attend UT with 0 ties to Texas and go to interviews and say you like the weather and you don't want to pay income taxes--many firms will ding you (even if you have high grades). Many secondary firms do not want to invest in associates who bail after a few years.

Like a lot of mantras, ties can be applied to some situations where it is not very relevant. But I think the mantra is invoked in many more situations where it is applicable.

ahnhub
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Re: TLS is a mindless echo chamber

Postby ahnhub » Mon Apr 16, 2012 1:49 am

Although one thing I could never reconcile was that people seem to think Biglaw wants to push you out the door the moment you get in, and yet they obsess over ties because they want you to stick around.

rad lulz
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Re: TLS is a mindless echo chamber

Postby rad lulz » Mon Apr 16, 2012 1:49 am

Lawquacious wrote:Surprisingly, market ties unfortunately are a big deal in legal hiring (some above have now beat me to the point and given sound feedback). It sucks, but it is definitely for real. If you have high enough grades and go to a good enough school it may be less of a factor, but it is still often asked about in interviews and looked for by prospective employers in law.

Which actually brings me to my next point.

Many on TLS don't really "get" ties, and they assume that ties are like a box you check. So you hear 1Ls asking "do I have ties to XYZ place," or saying "RAD you're a MORAN, my bro bro got a jerb in XYZ parochial markets sans ties, so you're an idiot."

But ties aren't a box you check. Where (locationwise) you can get a job largely depends on a combination of 3 things: 1) your grades, 2) the prestige of your school in a target market, and 3) strength of your ties to that market. All this is in the context of the outside factor you can't control of how parochial that market is.

I've seen bros with no ties get 1L summer jerbs in Bham because they had good grades from UVA and Vandy (high on #2). Peoople with blah grades didn't fare so well. But I've seen those same people with blah grades slay in their parochial hometowns. I've seen dudes who went to the local school get fewer offers at less prestigious firms at OCI or struck out because homers got them instead. There are a million combinations to this.

But when picking schools, you don't know your grades, which is why you'll see people harping on ties a lot, because it's one of the things you DO know before you start, and you can account for it.

rad lulz
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Re: TLS is a mindless echo chamber

Postby rad lulz » Mon Apr 16, 2012 1:51 am

ahnhub wrote:Although one thing I could never reconcile was that people seem to think Biglaw wants to push you out the door the moment you get in, and yet they obsess over ties because they want you to stick around.

Firms tend to be structured differently in secondary markets; there doesn't tend to be as strong an up or out mentality and firms are less highly leveraged (generally). Shocker: these markets tend to like ties more than NYC.

edit: also community involvement tends to matter a ton for getting clients in 2ndary markets. More likely to stick around and get involved if you have ties.

flcath
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Re: TLS is a mindless echo chamber

Postby flcath » Mon Apr 16, 2012 2:04 am

Weird. The "ties" thing is totally legit. What I do think is TLS echo chamber BS is the idea of certain schools being "regional." E.g., that a firm from the midwest will want to hire me because I go to ND (they don't, but firms from the South--where I'm from--do).

You do understand why firms want ties, right? It has nothing to do with 'liking' hometown peeps more. It has to do with your statistical probability of sticking around past 3 years in, when most secondary-market firms make the most $$$ off of you.
Last edited by flcath on Mon Apr 16, 2012 2:05 am, edited 1 time in total.

09042014
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Re: TLS is a mindless echo chamber

Postby 09042014 » Mon Apr 16, 2012 2:05 am

rad lulz wrote:
ahnhub wrote:Although one thing I could never reconcile was that people seem to think Biglaw wants to push you out the door the moment you get in, and yet they obsess over ties because they want you to stick around.

Firms tend to be structured differently in secondary markets; there doesn't tend to be as strong an up or out mentality and firms are less highly leveraged (generally). Shocker: these markets tend to like ties more than NYC.

edit: also community involvement tends to matter a ton for getting clients in 2ndary markets. More likely to stick around and get involved if you have ties.


For what it's worth, I don't buy that firms push you that fast anywhere. From what XO tells, it seems like you get 2 years even if you are retarded. Assuming good economy. That's why Lathaming was a thing. They had the "audacity" to fire first years.

ajr
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Re: TLS is a mindless echo chamber

Postby ajr » Mon Apr 16, 2012 2:09 am

TLS is a mindless echo chamber.

But this is not the best example to illustrate the point.

flcath
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Re: TLS is a mindless echo chamber

Postby flcath » Mon Apr 16, 2012 2:15 am

By the way, OP, you might want to go talk to your CSO about this before you bid on OCIs / resume-bomb the greater Honolulu metropolitan area.

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Borg
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Re: TLS is a mindless echo chamber

Postby Borg » Mon Apr 16, 2012 2:18 am

rad lulz wrote:
Borg wrote:If you can get interviews in smaller markets through OCI, ties are probably less important as those firms are just looking for talent and think they can convince their summers to stick around.

Not really. Those firms generally show up to OCI hoping to talk to the kids with ties from those schools, though there are exceptions.

Not in my experience. I had offers at OCI from firms in markets where I had no connections whatsoever, and I knew people who had grown up in those towns who struck out. There was no good reason for me to be an exception, either. Maybe at lower ranked schools things are different, but I don't know that it's so crucial at top ones.

rad lulz
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Re: TLS is a mindless echo chamber

Postby rad lulz » Mon Apr 16, 2012 2:19 am

Borg wrote:
rad lulz wrote:
Borg wrote:If you can get interviews in smaller markets through OCI, ties are probably less important as those firms are just looking for talent and think they can convince their summers to stick around.

Not really. Those firms generally show up to OCI hoping to talk to the kids with ties from those schools, though there are exceptions.

Not in my experience. I had offers at OCI from firms in markets where I had no connections whatsoever, and I knew people who had grown up in those towns who struck out. There was no good reason for me to be an exception, either. Maybe at lower ranked schools things are different, but I don't know that it's so crucial at top ones.

Define "top." Also depends what markets. Also depends on your grades.

Also I have definitely seen exceptions, but nowhere near as often as I've seen the general rule apply.

See rad lulz, surpa.
Last edited by rad lulz on Mon Apr 16, 2012 2:23 am, edited 1 time in total.

09042014
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Re: TLS is a mindless echo chamber

Postby 09042014 » Mon Apr 16, 2012 2:23 am

flcath wrote:By the way, OP, you might want to go talk to your CSO about this before you bid on OCIs / resume-bomb the greater Honolulu metropolitan area.


NU's career services tells you to bid where you have ties. It's not a TLS thing.

If you wanna bid where you have no ties? Fake fiance bro.

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rayiner
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Re: TLS is a mindless echo chamber

Postby rayiner » Mon Apr 16, 2012 2:34 am

mrwarre85 wrote:Who was the fist person to claim that "ties" to a given market were so important? I went back on the TLS archives and couldn't find a single mention of "ties" in all the countless threads from 2009.

Surely if you moved from Manhattan to Fayetteville, Arkansas to attend UA you may have trouble fitting in with the yocals and this might hinder your job hunt. However, the first thing an employer is going to consider is whether you are going to add value to the business. If you are going to add more value than the "homer," you are going to get the gig.

Best I can tell, it looks like about six months ago someone mentioned "ties" and created a plausible argument around "ties" and now the first thing everyone asks applicants is where they have "ties." Hilarious.


TLS didn't have a legal employment forum in 2009, and consequently most people didn't have a reason to stick around to give OCI advice. After the establishment f the legal employment forum, I definitely remember talking about ties during my OCI in 2010.

Also, having gone through OCI, ties are the real deal. Every Chicago firm grilled me about ties despite my going to Northwestern, even national V25 firms.

Also, suck it: http://www.top-law-schools.com/forums/v ... s#p1799120




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