Great law school article for potential 0L's

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Mr Cooper
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Great law school article for potential 0L's

Postby Mr Cooper » Sun Apr 08, 2012 1:37 am

http://artofmanliness.com/2012/02/27/faq-should-i-go-to-law-school/

I just read this, written by a former law student/graduate. Very insightful into what the field of law is like, what law school is like, and who really should be going and who shouldn't.

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FryBreadPower
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Re: Great law school article for potential 0L's

Postby FryBreadPower » Sun Apr 08, 2012 3:32 am

"You're a hustler."

BOOM. Vindicated.

flcath
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Re: Great law school article for potential 0L's

Postby flcath » Sun Apr 08, 2012 4:17 am

Actually pretty good. Very balanced tone.

Real Madrid
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Re: Great law school article for potential 0L's

Postby Real Madrid » Sun Apr 08, 2012 10:14 am

Great article. The unfortunate thing is that the readers and posters on this board are the ones (for the most part) who are fully aware of the risk involved in getting a legal education, and so in that sense, we're the ones least likely to need to read this article.

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sunynp
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Re: Great law school article for potential 0L's

Postby sunynp » Sun Apr 08, 2012 11:48 am

This is a great summar.

Generally, I tell people considering a career in law to seriously reconsider their decision. Why? Most people I talk to are making their choice without enough information. They often underestimate the investment and burden law school and the practice of law can put on your time, finances, and relationships, (not to mention your sanity) and overestimate their ability to excel in school and later find a great job in our current economy. Personally, I think that most people who want to go to law school, probably shouldn’t.



What is the true salary you will make?


Despite what you’ve read in John Grisham novels about rainmaker attorneys winning $100 million cases or young associates earning six figure salaries right out of law school, the average lawyer in the U.S. makes somewhere between $65,00 to $90,000. Sure, that’s definitely nothing to sneeze at, but it’s a far cry from the Mercedes Benz-driving image that most people have of attorneys. (Also, keep in mind that figuring out average salaries for a profession is difficult. According to some calculations, only around 53.8% of those with a law degree are working in a law-related field, and the salaries of the other 46% who are working other jobs or are unemployed are unreported. Also, I tend to believe that most of the salary numbers we see out there are inflated due to a larger survey response rate by high earning individuals compared to low earners.)

For example, in Oklahoma the average salary of an attorney is between $54,000-$84,000, and I know of firms here in Tulsa that start out new associates at $35k a year. Sure, $54,000 can go a long way here in the Sooner State, but when you have to pay $1,500 a month on your six-figure law school debt, and you have a growing family, money becomes really tight, really fast.

Also, what people don’t tell you is that the only jobs that offer six-figure salaries to people right out of law school are the big, established firms. And you have almost no chance of being hired by a big firm unless you graduate in the top 10% of your class–really these days you have to be one of the top ten people in your class for big firms to even take a look at you. And keep in mind that if you are lucky to get hired by a big firm, you’ll often be working 60-80 hours a week, so you’ll certainly be earning those Benjamins.


For people who always have an anecdote of a successful family friend:
Well, hold on one minute! I’m a lawyer and I’ve done very well for myself.

I don’t deny that there are people going into the law that have made a very good go of it. I know several law classmates who have established solid legal careers and are making a very comfortable living. But for every classmate that I know who’s done well, I know two more who are still looking for work or struggling to make ends meet in their current job.
Last edited by sunynp on Sun Apr 08, 2012 11:54 am, edited 1 time in total.

Real Madrid
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Re: Great law school article for potential 0L's

Postby Real Madrid » Sun Apr 08, 2012 11:51 am

One thing the article gets wrong though is that it doesn't distinguish between law schools - the author says you have to be in the top ten of your class to even have a shot at some type of Big Law. That's probably true at Tulsa, but not at the caliber of schools many on this site are considering.

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romothesavior
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Re: Great law school article for potential 0L's

Postby romothesavior » Sun Apr 08, 2012 11:59 am

Very solid article. Maybe the best on the topic I have seen. I feel the exact same way about law school as the author; it can be a solid investment and lead to a very enjoyable and rewarding career for the right people in the right situations. Unfortunately, the majority of people applying to law school are not right for studying/practicing law, and the vast majority aren't going in the right situations (and by this I mean a healthy combination of price tag and school). Just take a spin around the "Choosing a Law School" forum on TLS and you'll see what I mean. Of course, this also doesn't mean law school is a universally bad decision. The truth lies somewhere between the 0L blind optimism and the JDU/Mtal mentality, though landing closer to JDU is probably healthy.

The only potential issue I have with the article is that it could be easily written off as being directed toward lower tier students because the guy went to Tulsa, it talked a lot about scholarship retention, etc. I hope people at Tier 1 schools also take this to heart. The message is equally applicable to people in the T1.
Last edited by romothesavior on Sun Apr 08, 2012 12:01 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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sunynp
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Re: Great law school article for potential 0L's

Postby sunynp » Sun Apr 08, 2012 11:59 am

Real Madrid wrote:One thing the article gets wrong though is that it doesn't distinguish between law schools - the author says you have to be in the top ten of your class to even have a shot at some type of Big Law. That's probably true at Tulsa, but not at the caliber of schools many on this site are considering.


I think a large number (or even the majority) of people on this site aren't going to T6 or T14 school. Look at all the threads asking for advice on choosing schools. And even at T14 schools, grades matter. Median or below can be in trouble, in the sense of that repaying debt is not a sure thing.

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Mr Cooper
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Re: Great law school article for potential 0L's

Postby Mr Cooper » Sun Apr 08, 2012 12:15 pm

Real Madrid wrote:Great article. The unfortunate thing is that the readers and posters on this board are the ones (for the most part) who are fully aware of the risk involved in getting a legal education, and so in that sense, we're the ones least likely to need to read this article.


Maybe the link to this thread should be a footnote:

viewtopic.php?f=23&t=170585

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Tiago Splitter
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Re: Great law school article for potential 0L's

Postby Tiago Splitter » Sun Apr 08, 2012 12:17 pm

sunynp wrote:
Real Madrid wrote:One thing the article gets wrong though is that it doesn't distinguish between law schools - the author says you have to be in the top ten of your class to even have a shot at some type of Big Law. That's probably true at Tulsa, but not at the caliber of schools many on this site are considering.


I think a large number (or even the majority) of people on this site aren't going to T6 or T14 school. Look at all the threads asking for advice on choosing schools. And even at T14 schools, grades matter. Median or below can be in trouble, in the sense of that repaying debt is not a sure thing.


True but the article, and the comments below, don't emphasize enough the importance of going to a highly ranked school. It's really not mentioned at all. The conclusion from the "Who Should Go to Law School" section seems to be that if you have better than a half-ride, really want to be a lawyer, and know what lawyers do then you should go to Tulsa.

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vpintz
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Re: Great law school article for potential 0L's

Postby vpintz » Sun Apr 08, 2012 10:47 pm

Loved this article. Thanks for sharing it!

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Mr Cooper
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Re: Great law school article for potential 0L's

Postby Mr Cooper » Wed May 30, 2012 12:00 am

bump

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PDaddy
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Re: Great law school article for potential 0L's

Postby PDaddy » Wed May 30, 2012 12:49 am

Mr Cooper wrote:http://artofmanliness.com/2012/02/27/faq-should-i-go-to-law-school/

I just read this, written by a former law student/graduate. Very insightful into what the field of law is like, what law school is like, and who really should be going and who shouldn't.


With all due respect, we have bandied about on these issues before. Your post is still useful for the newer users, so Kudos for posting anyways. Thoughtful...insightful...but old hat for many of us, nevertheless...

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tyro
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Re: Great law school article for potential 0L's

Postby tyro » Wed May 30, 2012 1:41 am

Mr Cooper wrote:
Real Madrid wrote:Great article. The unfortunate thing is that the readers and posters on this board are the ones (for the most part) who are fully aware of the risk involved in getting a legal education, and so in that sense, we're the ones least likely to need to read this article.


Maybe the link to this thread should be a footnote:

viewtopic.php?f=23&t=170585

Wow that was depressing. Thanks for linking it though.

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Mr Cooper
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Re: Great law school article for potential 0L's

Postby Mr Cooper » Mon Jan 28, 2013 2:42 pm

bump

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suralin
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Re: Great law school article for potential 0L's

Postby suralin » Mon Jan 28, 2013 3:31 pm

Tiago Splitter wrote:
sunynp wrote:
Real Madrid wrote:One thing the article gets wrong though is that it doesn't distinguish between law schools - the author says you have to be in the top ten of your class to even have a shot at some type of Big Law. That's probably true at Tulsa, but not at the caliber of schools many on this site are considering.


I think a large number (or even the majority) of people on this site aren't going to T6 or T14 school. Look at all the threads asking for advice on choosing schools. And even at T14 schools, grades matter. Median or below can be in trouble, in the sense of that repaying debt is not a sure thing.


True but the article, and the comments below, don't emphasize enough the importance of going to a highly ranked school. It's really not mentioned at all. The conclusion from the "Who Should Go to Law School" section seems to be that if you have better than a half-ride, really want to be a lawyer, and know what lawyers do then you should go to Tulsa.


+1

Also, no mention of the importance of retaking the LSAT in many cases.

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RhymesLikeDimes
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Re: Great law school article for potential 0L's

Postby RhymesLikeDimes » Mon Jan 28, 2013 4:17 pm

If you scroll through the comments, it's a couple hundred TTT grads going off on how shocked they were to have trouble getting a job (TOP HALF OF THEIR CLASS!!!). Now all law schools (even HYS) are scams, because they didn't take 10 minutes to research how they were spending $200K and 3 years of their life beforehand.

Minimal sympathy.

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bizzybone1313
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Re: Great law school article for potential 0L's

Postby bizzybone1313 » Mon Jan 28, 2013 4:33 pm

RhymesLikeDimes wrote:If you scroll through the comments, it's a couple hundred TTT grads going off on how shocked they were to have trouble getting a job (TOP HALF OF THEIR CLASS!!!). Now all law schools (even HYS) are scams, because they didn't take 10 minutes to research how they were spending $200K and 3 years of their life beforehand.

Minimal sympathy.


It is mind boggling to me how thousands of liberal arts grads aren't smart enough to know that most law schools aren't worth attending. I just don't understand how these people do not do enough research to figure this out.

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cinephile
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Re: Great law school article for potential 0L's

Postby cinephile » Mon Jan 28, 2013 4:37 pm

RhymesLikeDimes wrote:If you scroll through the comments, it's a couple hundred TTT grads going off on how shocked they were to have trouble getting a job (TOP HALF OF THEIR CLASS!!!). Now all law schools (even HYS) are scams, because they didn't take 10 minutes to research how they were spending $200K and 3 years of their life beforehand.

Minimal sympathy.


You are delusional if you think it's only students at TTTs who are having trouble finding jobs. People are respectable schools are struggling to, in all ranks of the class.

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RhymesLikeDimes
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Re: Great law school article for potential 0L's

Postby RhymesLikeDimes » Mon Jan 28, 2013 5:56 pm

I don't think it's only TTT who are struggling, but that seems to be the breakdown of the comments. I have all the sympathy in the world for people who went T20, got respectable grades, and still can't get find a decent job.

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warandpeace
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Re: Great law school article for potential 0L's

Postby warandpeace » Mon Jan 28, 2013 6:13 pm

Don't think this guy's article required too much thought lol

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romothesavior
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Re: Great law school article for potential 0L's

Postby romothesavior » Mon Jan 28, 2013 7:57 pm

Unless there is a good reason to resurrect a thread, please don't bump like this.

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Mr Cooper
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Re: Great law school article for potential 0L's

Postby Mr Cooper » Mon Jan 28, 2013 10:18 pm

romothesavior wrote:Unless there is a good reason to resurrect a thread, please don't bump like this.


Would you prefer it got re-posted? You said yourself in this thread that that may have been the best article on the subject. Something that every cycle should probably read IMO.




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