I've stopped dissuading kids from going to Law School

(Applications Advice, Letters of Recommendation . . . )
flcath
Posts: 1502
Joined: Fri Nov 06, 2009 11:39 pm

Re: I've stopped dissuading kids from going to Law School

Postby flcath » Sat Apr 07, 2012 6:20 pm

Lawl Shcool wrote:You are obviously feeling inadequate next to your classmates and are using a disfavor for the profession as an excuse to try and sound superior with the "well i'm gonna be a doctor HA!" attitude.

Genuinely not true at all. I really like law, think I have more aptitude for it than medicine (so do most people, though... part of the problem), and think it was probably an awesome career up until a few decades ago.

Also, to address the ad hom about inadequacy next to classmates (if it was serious), I've got good grades, a firm job, and am on law review. I've also been saying this shit (including on TLS) since first semester 1L.

shoeshine
Posts: 1241
Joined: Wed May 04, 2011 10:58 pm

Re: I've stopped dissuading kids from going to Law School

Postby shoeshine » Sat Apr 07, 2012 6:23 pm

TheWeeIceMon wrote:
shoeshine wrote:
LawBrah wrote:Postbac is really cheap because it's at a state school and my parents will help pay the minimal fees for it (no loans). Med school is only 4 years long, not 7. You get paid during residency (not much...around $50k but at least it's something). I'd rather do this path and be GUARANTEED to make at least $200k (if not $400k if I can match into orthopedics, radiology, anesthesiology, etc.) with great job security for 30+ years working as a physician as opposed to taking some shitlaw job for $80k with no job security or anything.

I really hope there are people who haven't stepped into law school who are reading this and will reconsider entering the cesspool that is the legal profession.

Good luck making 400k or even 200k after socialized medicine kicks in. Yeah primary care doctors salaries will go up but specialties will make half what they make now and you will have a ton of debt.

Why do you think Medical school is free in every country that has socialized medicine? Hopefully they do some sort of loan forgiveness program once it kicks in or you (and many other people just starting med school) will be the new working poor.


LOL at doctors being the "new working poor". Sure, the new laws, assuming they are implemented, will more than likely bring the gap between primary care and specialist salaries closer together, but to say that specialists will make half of what they previously earned is ridiculous. I seriously doubt current and future medical student will have problems paying off loans when they become attendings.


A general practice doctor makes on average 49k pounds (78k USD) in the UK. The best specialties (neurologist/plastic surgeon) only make 70k pounds (112k USD) in the UK.

That is where we are headed.

Source: http://www.payscale.com/research/UK/People_with_Jobs_as_Physicians_%2F_Doctors/Salary

User avatar
Lawl Shcool
Posts: 763
Joined: Tue Oct 27, 2009 6:44 pm

Re: I've stopped dissuading kids from going to Law School

Postby Lawl Shcool » Sat Apr 07, 2012 6:24 pm

flcath wrote:
Lawl Shcool wrote:You are obviously feeling inadequate next to your classmates and are using a disfavor for the profession as an excuse to try and sound superior with the "well i'm gonna be a doctor HA!" attitude.

Genuinely not true at all. I really like law, think I have more aptitude for it than medicine (so do most people, though... part of the problem), and think it was probably an awesome career up until a few decades ago.

Also, to address the ad hom about inadequacy next to classmates (if it was serious), I've got good grades, a firm job, and am on law review. I've also been saying this shit (including on TLS) since first semester 1L.


So if you genuinely believe it and have had that attitude since you started law school, why would you continue to work towards a profession you have so much disdain for?

User avatar
dingbat
Posts: 4976
Joined: Wed Jan 11, 2012 9:12 pm

Re: I've stopped dissuading kids from going to Law School

Postby dingbat » Sat Apr 07, 2012 6:27 pm

shoeshine wrote:Read my edited response. You understand what I meant.

I knew what you meant. However, it's a completely different economic model.
No, they can't pay back $200k debt. But they're not in $200k debt.

In most of Europe, doctors are financially well-off, but not stinking rich, like some doctors are over here.
People don't become doctors for the money, but because it's what they want to do.

To be honest, I find the income disparity in this country quite bad.
I actually believe that a person is more likely to achieve the American Dream today if said person grows up in Europe, than if they grow up here.

User avatar
PARTY
Posts: 420
Joined: Sun Jan 08, 2012 5:54 pm

Re: I've stopped dissuading kids from going to Law School

Postby PARTY » Sat Apr 07, 2012 6:28 pm

dingbat wrote:I actually believe that a person is more likely to achieve the American Dream today if said person grows up in Europe, than if they grow up here.


ah, but that wouldn't be the American Dream then.

shoeshine
Posts: 1241
Joined: Wed May 04, 2011 10:58 pm

Re: I've stopped dissuading kids from going to Law School

Postby shoeshine » Sat Apr 07, 2012 6:31 pm

dingbat wrote:
shoeshine wrote:Read my edited response. You understand what I meant.

I knew what you meant. However, it's a completely different economic model.
No, they can't pay back $200k debt. But they're not in $200k debt.


That was exactly the point of my post. Unless we socialize education too our doctors are going to have huge education loans and disproportionately small salaries to pay them off.

It would be the equivalent of paying sticker (200-240k) at a T14 and betting a job that pays 80K. Yeah you can live and eventually pay off your loans but it will be a struggle.

User avatar
dingbat
Posts: 4976
Joined: Wed Jan 11, 2012 9:12 pm

Re: I've stopped dissuading kids from going to Law School

Postby dingbat » Sat Apr 07, 2012 6:31 pm

shoeshine wrote:
TheWeeIceMon wrote:
shoeshine wrote:
LawBrah wrote:Postbac is really cheap because it's at a state school and my parents will help pay the minimal fees for it (no loans). Med school is only 4 years long, not 7. You get paid during residency (not much...around $50k but at least it's something). I'd rather do this path and be GUARANTEED to make at least $200k (if not $400k if I can match into orthopedics, radiology, anesthesiology, etc.) with great job security for 30+ years working as a physician as opposed to taking some shitlaw job for $80k with no job security or anything.

I really hope there are people who haven't stepped into law school who are reading this and will reconsider entering the cesspool that is the legal profession.

Good luck making 400k or even 200k after socialized medicine kicks in. Yeah primary care doctors salaries will go up but specialties will make half what they make now and you will have a ton of debt.

Why do you think Medical school is free in every country that has socialized medicine? Hopefully they do some sort of loan forgiveness program once it kicks in or you (and many other people just starting med school) will be the new working poor.


LOL at doctors being the "new working poor". Sure, the new laws, assuming they are implemented, will more than likely bring the gap between primary care and specialist salaries closer together, but to say that specialists will make half of what they previously earned is ridiculous. I seriously doubt current and future medical student will have problems paying off loans when they become attendings.


A general practice doctor makes on average 49k pounds (78k USD) in the UK. The best specialties (neurologist/plastic surgeon) only make 70k pounds (112k USD) in the UK.

That is where we are headed.

Source: http://www.payscale.com/research/UK/People_with_Jobs_as_Physicians_%2F_Doctors/Salary

Yes, but going to the doctor's is free.'
Basically, the rich are less rich, while the poor are less poor.

In addition, the doctor doesn't have anywhere near as much student debt, doesn't have to pay for malpractice insurance, doesn't have to put money aside to pay for their kids to go to college, and doesn't have to put money aside for retirement.

shoeshine
Posts: 1241
Joined: Wed May 04, 2011 10:58 pm

Re: I've stopped dissuading kids from going to Law School

Postby shoeshine » Sat Apr 07, 2012 6:33 pm

dingbat wrote:In most of Europe, doctors are financially well-off, but not stinking rich, like some doctors are over here.
People don't become doctors for the money, but because it's what they want to do.

Some of the people in this thread have indicated they want to do it at least partly for the money.

User avatar
dingbat
Posts: 4976
Joined: Wed Jan 11, 2012 9:12 pm

Re: I've stopped dissuading kids from going to Law School

Postby dingbat » Sat Apr 07, 2012 6:34 pm

shoeshine wrote:
dingbat wrote:
shoeshine wrote:Read my edited response. You understand what I meant.

I knew what you meant. However, it's a completely different economic model.
No, they can't pay back $200k debt. But they're not in $200k debt.


That was exactly the point of my post. Unless we socialize education too our doctors are going to have huge education loans and disproportionately small salaries to pay them off.

It would be the equivalent of paying sticker (200-240k) at a T14 and betting a job that pays 80K. Yeah you can live and eventually pay off your loans but it will be a struggle.

What on earth makes you think that the introduction of "socialized medicine" as you put it will have such a large impact on doctor's salaries?

On a separate note, the entire economic model in places like England is different compared to here. You can't just compare a small sliver of it, because you'll get a distorted answer

User avatar
dingbat
Posts: 4976
Joined: Wed Jan 11, 2012 9:12 pm

Re: I've stopped dissuading kids from going to Law School

Postby dingbat » Sat Apr 07, 2012 6:35 pm

shoeshine wrote:
dingbat wrote:In most of Europe, doctors are financially well-off, but not stinking rich, like some doctors are over here.
People don't become doctors for the money, but because it's what they want to do.

Some of the people in this thread have indicated they want to do it at least partly for the money.

Same with every profession.
Best job I ever had was making ice cream. If money were no object, I'd do that in a heartbeat.

shoeshine
Posts: 1241
Joined: Wed May 04, 2011 10:58 pm

Re: I've stopped dissuading kids from going to Law School

Postby shoeshine » Sat Apr 07, 2012 6:36 pm

dingbat wrote:Yes, but going to the doctor's is free.'
Basically, the rich are less rich, while the poor are less poor.

In addition, the doctor doesn't have anywhere near as much student debt, doesn't have to pay for malpractice insurance, doesn't have to put money aside to pay for their kids to go to college, and doesn't have to put money aside for retirement.


Once again, my point was/is the student debt thing.

flcath
Posts: 1502
Joined: Fri Nov 06, 2009 11:39 pm

Re: I've stopped dissuading kids from going to Law School

Postby flcath » Sat Apr 07, 2012 6:39 pm

Lawl Shcool wrote:
flcath wrote:
Lawl Shcool wrote:You are obviously feeling inadequate next to your classmates and are using a disfavor for the profession as an excuse to try and sound superior with the "well i'm gonna be a doctor HA!" attitude.

Genuinely not true at all. I really like law, think I have more aptitude for it than medicine (so do most people, though... part of the problem), and think it was probably an awesome career up until a few decades ago.

Also, to address the ad hom about inadequacy next to classmates (if it was serious), I've got good grades, a firm job, and am on law review. I've also been saying this shit (including on TLS) since first semester 1L.


So if you genuinely believe it and have had that attitude since you started law school, why would you continue to work towards a profession you have so much disdain for?

I didn't 'choose' to go into medicine for the same reason you won't 'choose' to be the U.S. Solicitor General upon graduation from law school. The offer wasn't there.

My disdain is mostly for the ABA. I shit you not, the last time I was at the doctor's office, when I told him I was a law student, he immediately started talking to me about the LS class actions. That kinda shit--and the fact that now everyone knows some nephew who's working at the Home Depot upon graduation from LS--degrades the legal industry.

User avatar
dingbat
Posts: 4976
Joined: Wed Jan 11, 2012 9:12 pm

Re: I've stopped dissuading kids from going to Law School

Postby dingbat » Sat Apr 07, 2012 6:41 pm

shoeshine wrote:
dingbat wrote:Yes, but going to the doctor's is free.'
Basically, the rich are less rich, while the poor are less poor.

In addition, the doctor doesn't have anywhere near as much student debt, doesn't have to pay for malpractice insurance, doesn't have to put money aside to pay for their kids to go to college, and doesn't have to put money aside for retirement.


Once again, my point was/is the student debt thing.

Once again, my question is the doctor pay thing

BearsGrl
Posts: 1660
Joined: Thu Jan 05, 2012 1:40 pm

Re: I've stopped dissuading kids from going to Law School

Postby BearsGrl » Sat Apr 07, 2012 6:42 pm

shoeshine wrote:
dingbat wrote:
shoeshine wrote:Read my edited response. You understand what I meant.

I knew what you meant. However, it's a completely different economic model.
No, they can't pay back $200k debt. But they're not in $200k debt.


That was exactly the point of my post. Unless we socialize education too our doctors are going to have huge education loans and disproportionately small salaries to pay them off.

It would be the equivalent of paying sticker (200-240k) at a T14 and betting a job that pays 80K. Yeah you can live and eventually pay off your loans but it will be a struggle.


Some would say that we already do have socialized (in a form) education.

User avatar
dingbat
Posts: 4976
Joined: Wed Jan 11, 2012 9:12 pm

Re: I've stopped dissuading kids from going to Law School

Postby dingbat » Sat Apr 07, 2012 6:45 pm

BearsGrl wrote:
shoeshine wrote:
dingbat wrote:
shoeshine wrote:Read my edited response. You understand what I meant.

I knew what you meant. However, it's a completely different economic model.
No, they can't pay back $200k debt. But they're not in $200k debt.


That was exactly the point of my post. Unless we socialize education too our doctors are going to have huge education loans and disproportionately small salaries to pay them off.

It would be the equivalent of paying sticker (200-240k) at a T14 and betting a job that pays 80K. Yeah you can live and eventually pay off your loans but it will be a struggle.


Some would say that we already do have socialized (in a form) education.

We have a hybrid of socialized and non-socialized education.
My kid's going to go to a public elementary school and a public high school.
I personally will be going to a private law school, although I could go to the public state school instead (if scholarships are taken out of the equation that would save me approximately $50k)

BearsGrl
Posts: 1660
Joined: Thu Jan 05, 2012 1:40 pm

Re: I've stopped dissuading kids from going to Law School

Postby BearsGrl » Sat Apr 07, 2012 6:47 pm

dingbat wrote:
shoeshine wrote:
dingbat wrote:Yes, but going to the doctor's is free.'
Basically, the rich are less rich, while the poor are less poor.

In addition, the doctor doesn't have anywhere near as much student debt, doesn't have to pay for malpractice insurance, doesn't have to put money aside to pay for their kids to go to college, and doesn't have to put money aside for retirement.


Once again, my point was/is the student debt thing.

Once again, my question is the doctor pay thing


Physicians as a whole will be seeing less patients because the health care system is trying to make the practice more efficient. Less doctors, less tests - that whole concept.

I work in health care and I have heard of many folks avoiding med. school because they won't be able to go into business for themselves but will have to enter a general practice team and hospital system. It kind of goes against the American dream of starting a small business which is kind of how America operates as a whole. The reason why the economy is so bad is because small businesses can't manage to stay in business because of red tape involved.

User avatar
Lawl Shcool
Posts: 763
Joined: Tue Oct 27, 2009 6:44 pm

Re: I've stopped dissuading kids from going to Law School

Postby Lawl Shcool » Sat Apr 07, 2012 6:49 pm

flcath wrote:I didn't 'choose' to go into medicine for the same reason you won't 'choose' to be the U.S. Solicitor General upon graduation from law school. The offer wasn't there.

My disdain is mostly for the ABA. I shit you not, the last time I was at the doctor's office, when I told him I was a law student, he immediately started talking to me about the LS class actions. That kinda shit--and the fact that now everyone knows some nephew who's working at the Home Depot upon graduation from LS--degrades the legal industry.


huh? you clearly choose to continue going to law school while publicly bashing it, so I ask again, why?

For the record I don't personally know anyone working at home depot (or similar hourly wage type place) with a law degree (and I started at a tier 4 school).

Also, if your doctor told you that and then you told him that you had a job despite this, wouldn't that be a point of pride that you beat the odds, not a source of embarrassment?

BearsGrl
Posts: 1660
Joined: Thu Jan 05, 2012 1:40 pm

Re: I've stopped dissuading kids from going to Law School

Postby BearsGrl » Sat Apr 07, 2012 6:49 pm

That was exactly the point of my post. Unless we socialize education too our doctors are going to have huge education loans and disproportionately small salaries to pay them off.

It would be the equivalent of paying sticker (200-240k) at a T14 and betting a job that pays 80K. Yeah you can live and eventually pay off your loans but it will be a struggle.[/quote]

Some would say that we already do have socialized (in a form) education.[/quote]
We have a hybrid of socialized and non-socialized education.
My kid's going to go to a public elementary school and a public high school.
I personally will be going to a private law school, although I could go to the public state school instead (if scholarships are taken out of the equation that would save me approximately $50k)[/quote]

My point is that you (or others) are taking out loans and because of these loans, schools can increase their tuition rates. This is the socialized education that I'm talking about. It doesn't matter whether it's a public or a private school.

shoeshine
Posts: 1241
Joined: Wed May 04, 2011 10:58 pm

Re: I've stopped dissuading kids from going to Law School

Postby shoeshine » Sat Apr 07, 2012 6:49 pm

dingbat wrote:
shoeshine wrote:
dingbat wrote:
shoeshine wrote:Read my edited response. You understand what I meant.

I knew what you meant. However, it's a completely different economic model.
No, they can't pay back $200k debt. But they're not in $200k debt.


That was exactly the point of my post. Unless we socialize education too our doctors are going to have huge education loans and disproportionately small salaries to pay them off.

It would be the equivalent of paying sticker (200-240k) at a T14 and betting a job that pays 80K. Yeah you can live and eventually pay off your loans but it will be a struggle.

What on earth makes you think that the introduction of "socialized medicine" as you put it will have such a large impact on doctor's salaries?

On a separate note, the entire economic model in places like England is different compared to here. You can't just compare a small sliver of it, because you'll get a distorted answer


Because if were doing it right then the cost of health care should go down (relative to inflation).

I did not make that up either. The estimates vary but experts agree that doctors salaries will go down under the Affordable care act.

Sources:
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB124208383695408513.html
http://www.nypost.com/p/news/opinion/op ... g1QsAwBhUP

I think the affordable care act is just the start of socialized medicine though and that we will have a system close to the UK's within a decade. Which will be great for the poor and okay for doctors but disappointing for those look to enter the medical profession to pop bottles and date models.

User avatar
Bronte
Posts: 2128
Joined: Sun Jan 04, 2009 10:44 pm

Re: I've stopped dissuading kids from going to Law School

Postby Bronte » Sat Apr 07, 2012 6:50 pm

From first hand knowledge, I can draw Michigan's numbers out two years further into the future for K&E. Right now, the Michigan website says: Class of 2009: 15; 2010: 3; 2011: 2. Class of 2012 has 4 students with full time offers for Kirkland and class of 2013 has 9 summer associates going to Kirkland.

Overall, it's undeniable that things are not back to the way they were, but I think the evidence tends to show that things are much better than they were for Class of 2010 and 2011, which got the brunt of it.

User avatar
dingbat
Posts: 4976
Joined: Wed Jan 11, 2012 9:12 pm

Re: I've stopped dissuading kids from going to Law School

Postby dingbat » Sat Apr 07, 2012 6:52 pm

BearsGrl wrote:Physicians as a whole will be seeing less patients because the health care system is trying to make the practice more efficient. Less doctors, less tests - that whole concept.

In other words, doctors make a lot of money because there are a lot of inefficiencies in the medical profession.
That's fair.

How about if doctors stop bilking the system?
(On that note, medical billing makes absolutely no sense whatsoever)

shoeshine
Posts: 1241
Joined: Wed May 04, 2011 10:58 pm

Re: I've stopped dissuading kids from going to Law School

Postby shoeshine » Sat Apr 07, 2012 6:53 pm

dingbat wrote:
shoeshine wrote:
dingbat wrote:Yes, but going to the doctor's is free.'
Basically, the rich are less rich, while the poor are less poor.

In addition, the doctor doesn't have anywhere near as much student debt, doesn't have to pay for malpractice insurance, doesn't have to put money aside to pay for their kids to go to college, and doesn't have to put money aside for retirement.


Once again, my point was/is the student debt thing.

Once again, my question is the doctor pay thing

I am not debating you any more because you don't make real arguments. You never back up anything you say with any articles or real information.

And I remembered you are a 0L that thinks the LSAT logic games are a good indicator of how you will perform as a lawyer.

User avatar
dingbat
Posts: 4976
Joined: Wed Jan 11, 2012 9:12 pm

Re: I've stopped dissuading kids from going to Law School

Postby dingbat » Sat Apr 07, 2012 6:55 pm

shoeshine wrote:Because if we're doing it right

Sorry, but I just had to laugh at this part. "we" won't be doing it right at all.
Like medicare, it'll be a good idea badly implemented.

shoeshine
Posts: 1241
Joined: Wed May 04, 2011 10:58 pm

Re: I've stopped dissuading kids from going to Law School

Postby shoeshine » Sat Apr 07, 2012 6:56 pm

dingbat wrote:
shoeshine wrote:Because if we're doing it right

Sorry, but I just had to laugh at this part. "we" won't be doing it right at all.
Like medicare, it'll be a good idea badly implemented.

And you also create strawmen instead of addressing any of my real points.

User avatar
PARTY
Posts: 420
Joined: Sun Jan 08, 2012 5:54 pm

Re: I've stopped dissuading kids from going to Law School

Postby PARTY » Sat Apr 07, 2012 6:57 pm

shoeshine wrote:
dingbat wrote:
shoeshine wrote:
dingbat wrote:Yes, but going to the doctor's is free.'
Basically, the rich are less rich, while the poor are less poor.

In addition, the doctor doesn't have anywhere near as much student debt, doesn't have to pay for malpractice insurance, doesn't have to put money aside to pay for their kids to go to college, and doesn't have to put money aside for retirement.


Once again, my point was/is the student debt thing.

Once again, my question is the doctor pay thing

I am not debating you any more because you don't make real arguments. You never back up anything you say with any articles or real information.

And I remembered you are a 0L that thinks the LSAT logic games are a good indicator of how you will perform as a lawyer.


--ImageRemoved--




Return to “Law School Admissions Forum”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Mullens and 4 guests