I've stopped dissuading kids from going to Law School

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flcath
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Re: I've stopped dissuading kids from going to Law School

Postby flcath » Sat Apr 07, 2012 7:01 pm

Lawl Shcool wrote:
flcath wrote:I didn't 'choose' to go into medicine for the same reason you won't 'choose' to be the U.S. Solicitor General upon graduation from law school. The offer wasn't there.

My disdain is mostly for the ABA. I shit you not, the last time I was at the doctor's office, when I told him I was a law student, he immediately started talking to me about the LS class actions. That kinda shit--and the fact that now everyone knows some nephew who's working at the Home Depot upon graduation from LS--degrades the legal industry.


huh? you clearly choose to continue going to law school while publicly bashing it, so I ask again, why?

For the record I don't personally know anyone working at home depot (or similar hourly wage type place) with a law degree (and I started at a tier 4 school).

Also, if your doctor told you that and then you told him that you had a job despite this, wouldn't that be a point of pride that you beat the odds, not a source of embarrassment?

I dunno man, I just like the M.D. model of everyone having a job and a good living, there being collegiality vice cutthroat competition, and a minimal standard of competence possessed by everyone in the field. It seems more in keeping with what a 'profession' is.

And I don't get why taking a job means you automatically have to pretend it's the greatest job ever.

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dingbat
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Re: I've stopped dissuading kids from going to Law School

Postby dingbat » Sat Apr 07, 2012 7:02 pm

shoeshine wrote:And I remembered you are a 0L that thinks the LSAT logic games are a good indicator of how you will perform as a lawyer.

Actually, I think it has parallels to certain aspects of the legal profession.
I do not think it relates to all aspects of being a lawyer. I certainly do not think it has anything to do with doc review.

As for the remainder, my brother is a doctor in Europe. I've lived in England as an adult for many years.
I also have relatives and friends who are doctors here. And my wife works in medical billing.

So while it's true I'm not linking in any articles (sorry, I'm lazy. I've read them but I don't feel like digging them up just to back up a point), I am basing my statements on real world knowledge.
Which is somewhere I've actually been.

How much time have you spent outside of college? How widely varied is your experience?
It's easy to find articles about many topics, it's not so easy to use deductive reasoning

(on a separate note, I agree that the overall effect is that mean doctor's pay will go down, but firstly I don't think the drop will be that drastic and secondly I think that on the "models and bottles" end it won't be nearly as bad, if at all noticable)

shoeshine
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Re: I've stopped dissuading kids from going to Law School

Postby shoeshine » Sat Apr 07, 2012 7:10 pm

dingbat wrote:
shoeshine wrote:And I remembered you are a 0L that thinks the LSAT logic games are a good indicator of how you will perform as a lawyer.

Actually, I think it has parallels to certain aspects of the legal profession.
I do not think it relates to all aspects of being a lawyer. I certainly do not think it has anything to do with doc review.

As for the remainder, my brother is a doctor in Europe. I've lived in England as an adult for many years.
I also have relatives and friends who are doctors here. And my wife works in medical billing.

So while it's true I'm not linking in any articles (sorry, I'm lazy. I've read them but I don't feel like digging them up just to back up a point), I am basing my statements on real world knowledge.
Which is somewhere I've actually been.

How much time have you spent outside of college? How widely varied is your experience?
It's easy to find articles about many topics, it's not so easy to use deductive reasoning

(on a separate note, I agree that the overall effect is that mean doctor's pay will go down, but firstly I don't think the drop will be that drastic and secondly I think that on the "models and bottles" end it won't be nearly as bad, if at all noticable)

Once again thanks for your feelings on the subject. Excuse me if I am unimpressed with strangers "real world knowledge" of the subject.

As for your ad hominem reasoning, I am in my late twenties and I lived in the UK for about a year and half for my job in finance. I have been to every country in Europe and I have even had surgery in the UK. I am not some straight through 23 year old 1L.

But do you see how none of that pertains to our argument? You reason like a Fox News commentator.
Last edited by shoeshine on Sat Apr 07, 2012 7:11 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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PARTY
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Re: I've stopped dissuading kids from going to Law School

Postby PARTY » Sat Apr 07, 2012 7:11 pm

this argument has delivered.

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dingbat
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Re: I've stopped dissuading kids from going to Law School

Postby dingbat » Sat Apr 07, 2012 7:12 pm

shoeshine wrote:
dingbat wrote:
shoeshine wrote:Because if we're doing it right

Sorry, but I just had to laugh at this part. "we" won't be doing it right at all.
Like medicare, it'll be a good idea badly implemented.

And you also create strawmen instead of addressing any of my real points.

Here's a point as to why it won't be implemented correctly:

Medical insurance at my company is approximately $800 for an individual and $2000 for a family, per month
Under the new healthcare law, the penalty for the company to not provide health insurance is $2,000 per employee.
A good business decision is to pay the penalty, which is a fraction of the cost of paying for insurance.
Hence, badly implemented.

The articles you posted specifically talk about medicare. However, a fairly large proportion of doctors don't accept medicare. Therefore, the articles have no (direct) impact on those doctors. A decent amount of the doctors who do accept medicare do it because it's the right thing to do, kind of like giving back to the community.
From a business perspective, it's a great way to start a practice, or to attract greater clientelle. It's not the most profitable way to perform medicine, but at least it gets you patients. Kind of like giving out coupons.
Last edited by dingbat on Sat Apr 07, 2012 7:15 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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dingbat
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Re: I've stopped dissuading kids from going to Law School

Postby dingbat » Sat Apr 07, 2012 7:14 pm

shoeshine wrote:As for your ad hominem reasoning, I am in my late twenties and I lived in the UK for about a year and half for my job in finance. I have been to every country in Europe and I have even had surgery in the UK. I am not some straight through 23 year old 1L.
.
Well, then I will take your opinions with less salt. Did you have to wait 9-12 months for your surgery, as I see many people use as an argument against socialized medicine?

BearsGrl
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Re: I've stopped dissuading kids from going to Law School

Postby BearsGrl » Sat Apr 07, 2012 7:14 pm

I love how none of this has to do with the Michigan stats.

muddup
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Re: I've stopped dissuading kids from going to Law School

Postby muddup » Sat Apr 07, 2012 7:16 pm

Please bring this back to Michigan, can current Michigan students or anyone else give more information w/r/t whether the prospects of Michigan grads are still worse as before (i.e. 2009)? Aside from the Kirkland stats?

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dingbat
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Re: I've stopped dissuading kids from going to Law School

Postby dingbat » Sat Apr 07, 2012 7:17 pm

BearsGrl wrote:I love how none of this has to do with the Michigan stats.

I was about to make an intelligentcomment, but then I realized that I don't have any articles to back up my points, so I decided to not bother
Last edited by dingbat on Sat Apr 07, 2012 7:22 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PARTY
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Re: I've stopped dissuading kids from going to Law School

Postby PARTY » Sat Apr 07, 2012 7:18 pm

dingbat wrote:
BearsGrl wrote:I love how none of this has to do with the Michigan stats.

I was about to make an intelligent comment, but then I realized that I don't have any articles to back up my points, so I decided to not bother


aside from your word, how are we supposed to know your comment is "intelligent" then?

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TheWeeIceMon
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Re: I've stopped dissuading kids from going to Law School

Postby TheWeeIceMon » Sat Apr 07, 2012 7:19 pm

Yeah, I'm not disagreeing that doctor's salaries will go down in the U.S. I was mostly responding to the claim that specialist salaries will be cut by half, which I think is outrageous. And for the record, the articles that Shoeshine linked don't even come close to suggesting that. Personally, from what information I have read, I have no doubts that even the lowest paying specialties in the U.S. will stay above a 6 figure average. Also, I'd like to point out that if you go into medicine solely for the money, you'll probably be equally miseable making 300,000 as you would 250,000.

ashika2212
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Re: I've stopped dissuading kids from going to Law School

Postby ashika2212 » Sat Apr 07, 2012 8:55 pm

Doctors have to do some pretty tough things that not everyone is suited for (myself included.) I don't care how much you pay me I'm not giving an old man a prostate exam, looking at yeast infections, looking into someones throat with bad breath, or dealing with various skin diseases/fungi. I am also not capable of operating on an eye (creeps the shit out of me) or cutting someone open and fiddling around with things. In the end, the only specialty I'd actually be able to tolerate is radiology, they have shitty hours and it's a competitive residency not worth gambling on getting.

Not only that but for most doctors it's the same thing every day. I hear a lot of people complain about being on menial tasks such as 'doc review', how do you imagine the family doctor feels the 80,000th time he's had to look through someones ear, or say 'it's just a cold get some bed rest.'

As has been repeatedly said, medicine is not for those in it for the money.

PS: Primary care physicians in Canada can make as little as 140k after expenses pre-tax. Just saying. For 6 years of post-graduate education, and a considerable investment.

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mattviphky
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Re: I've stopped dissuading kids from going to Law School

Postby mattviphky » Sat Apr 07, 2012 8:58 pm

shoeshine wrote:
And I remembered you are a 0L that thinks the LSAT logic games are a good indicator of how you will perform as a lawyer.


I think there is a great benefit in knowing that if x->y, then y doesn't necessarily mean x. Of course not just those simple terms, but being able to apply these equations to different scenarios is a solid ability in any field. Again, not saying that knowing this is a good indicator of performance as a lawyer, but not knowing it can be pretty shitty.

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skers
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Re: I've stopped dissuading kids from going to Law School

Postby skers » Sat Apr 07, 2012 9:48 pm

Eh, medicine is an overrated path to $$$. Dentistry is where it's at.

t14fanboy
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Re: I've stopped dissuading kids from going to Law School

Postby t14fanboy » Sat Apr 07, 2012 9:55 pm

But bro they're rumored to have a high suicide rate.

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Lawl Shcool
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Re: I've stopped dissuading kids from going to Law School

Postby Lawl Shcool » Sat Apr 07, 2012 10:04 pm

flcath wrote:I dunno man, I just like the M.D. model of everyone having a job and a good living, there being collegiality vice cutthroat competition, and a minimal standard of competence possessed by everyone in the field. It seems more in keeping with what a 'profession' is.

And I don't get why taking a job means you automatically have to pretend it's the greatest job ever.


0-2, you have avoided my direct question again. I think you just like to complain.

You realize that law is competitive because the very nature of the job is arguing against someone to win a case? There is no way to avoid that.

There is also a "minimum standard of competence" its the bar exam.

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spleenworship
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Re: I've stopped dissuading kids from going to Law School

Postby spleenworship » Sat Apr 07, 2012 10:08 pm

I read page one, I read page 5.


What the hell happened in the middle 3 pages? My battery is running low.

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Gecko of Doom
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Re: I've stopped dissuading kids from going to Law School

Postby Gecko of Doom » Sat Apr 07, 2012 10:24 pm

spleenworship wrote:I read page one, I read page 5.


What the hell happened in the middle 3 pages? My battery is running low.

I've just been skimming, but from what I can gather, it went something like this:

"Law sucks, go to med school."

"But Obama accidentally the healthcare industry."

"But capitalism accidentally the economy."

etc.

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breadbucket
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Re: I've stopped dissuading kids from going to Law School

Postby breadbucket » Sat Apr 07, 2012 10:27 pm

Gecko of Doom wrote:
spleenworship wrote:I read page one, I read page 5.


What the hell happened in the middle 3 pages? My battery is running low.

I've just been skimming, but from what I can gather, it went something like this:

"Law sucks, go to med school."

"But Obama accidentally the healthcare industry."

"But capitalism accidentally the economy."

etc.


Gold.

flcath
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Re: I've stopped dissuading kids from going to Law School

Postby flcath » Sat Apr 07, 2012 11:55 pm

Lawl Shcool wrote:
flcath wrote:I dunno man, I just like the M.D. model of everyone having a job and a good living, there being collegiality vice cutthroat competition, and a minimal standard of competence possessed by everyone in the field. It seems more in keeping with what a 'profession' is.

And I don't get why taking a job means you automatically have to pretend it's the greatest job ever.


0-2, you have avoided my direct question again. I think you just like to complain.

You realize that law is competitive because the very nature of the job is arguing against someone to win a case? There is no way to avoid that.

There is also a "minimum standard of competence" its the bar exam.

I had to look back to see what your "direct question" was. It was "you clearly choose to continue going to law school while publicly bashing it, so I ask again, why?"

I assumed this question meant "why law instead of medicine" (since I've mostly been talking about how TTT law is compared to medicine); and I answered, honestly, that I don't have the juice to join that [very exclusive] profession, whereas we all know that any retard can walk into law school when the mood strikes them.

If you meant for me to compare law to ALL other jobs, then yes, law stacks up pretty well. I said in my very first post ITT that it's better than retail management, but not as respectable as dental hygienics.

LawBrah
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Re: I've stopped dissuading kids from going to Law School

Postby LawBrah » Sun Apr 08, 2012 6:40 am

flcath wrote:
Lawl Shcool wrote:
flcath wrote:I dunno man, I just like the M.D. model of everyone having a job and a good living, there being collegiality vice cutthroat competition, and a minimal standard of competence possessed by everyone in the field. It seems more in keeping with what a 'profession' is.

And I don't get why taking a job means you automatically have to pretend it's the greatest job ever.


0-2, you have avoided my direct question again. I think you just like to complain.

You realize that law is competitive because the very nature of the job is arguing against someone to win a case? There is no way to avoid that.

There is also a "minimum standard of competence" its the bar exam.

I had to look back to see what your "direct question" was. It was "you clearly choose to continue going to law school while publicly bashing it, so I ask again, why?"

I assumed this question meant "why law instead of medicine" (since I've mostly been talking about how TTT law is compared to medicine); and I answered, honestly, that I don't have the juice to join that [very exclusive] profession, whereas we all know that any retard can walk into law school when the mood strikes them.

If you meant for me to compare law to ALL other jobs, then yes, law stacks up pretty well. I said in my very first post ITT that it's better than retail management, but not as respectable as dental hygienics.


Sadly, this is true. People on TLS way overestimate the "lay prestige" of law. Unless you're at a brand name school (read: Ivy) then no one cares. Everyone and their dog knows someone who went to LS so telling someone you're a lawyer or a law student won't garner much out of them except pity (again, unless you're at an Ivy or similar brand name school).

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spleenworship
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Re: I've stopped dissuading kids from going to Law School

Postby spleenworship » Sun Apr 08, 2012 11:34 am

breadbucket wrote:
Gecko of Doom wrote:
spleenworship wrote:I read page one, I read page 5.


What the hell happened in the middle 3 pages? My battery is running low.

I've just been skimming, but from what I can gather, it went something like this:

"Law sucks, go to med school."

"But Obama accidentally the healthcare industry."

"But capitalism accidentally the economy."

etc.


Gold.

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spleenworship
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Re: I've stopped dissuading kids from going to Law School

Postby spleenworship » Sun Apr 08, 2012 11:39 am

LawBrah wrote:
flcath wrote:
Lawl Shcool wrote:
flcath wrote:I dunno man, I just like the M.D. model of everyone having a job and a good living, there being collegiality vice cutthroat competition, and a minimal standard of competence possessed by everyone in the field. It seems more in keeping with what a 'profession' is.

And I don't get why taking a job means you automatically have to pretend it's the greatest job ever.


0-2, you have avoided my direct question again. I think you just like to complain.

You realize that law is competitive because the very nature of the job is arguing against someone to win a case? There is no way to avoid that.

There is also a "minimum standard of competence" its the bar exam.

I had to look back to see what your "direct question" was. It was "you clearly choose to continue going to law school while publicly bashing it, so I ask again, why?"

I assumed this question meant "why law instead of medicine" (since I've mostly been talking about how TTT law is compared to medicine); and I answered, honestly, that I don't have the juice to join that [very exclusive] profession, whereas we all know that any retard can walk into law school when the mood strikes them.

If you meant for me to compare law to ALL other jobs, then yes, law stacks up pretty well. I said in my very first post ITT that it's better than retail management, but not as respectable as dental hygienics.


Sadly, this is true. People on TLS way overestimate the "lay prestige" of law. Unless you're at a brand name school (read: Ivy) then no one cares. Everyone and their dog knows someone who went to LS so telling someone you're a lawyer or a law student won't garner much out of them except pity (again, unless you're at an Ivy or similar brand name school).


Meh... You need to hang out with blue collar people... They aren't aware of any of this, so they tend to think of law school as more rigorous than anything than medical school and leading to models and bottles. Most frequently the first thing I hear is "you already making the big bucks?"

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Gail
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Re: I've stopped dissuading kids from going to Law School

Postby Gail » Sun Apr 08, 2012 7:24 pm

spleenworship wrote:Meh... You need to hang out with blue collar people... They aren't aware of any of this, so they tend to think of law school as more rigorous than anything than medical school and leading to models and bottles. Most frequently the first thing I hear is "you already making the big bucks?"


Yeah. This.


LawBrah outing himself as a one-percenter.

Image

Applying_Late
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Re: I've stopped dissuading kids from going to Law School

Postby Applying_Late » Tue Apr 10, 2012 4:20 am

So I found an interesting blog on med school loans, and well if you manage to go to YSH for law it certainly seems like you are grtting a better financial deal than this blogger (600k in debt). If anyone has time to calculate go ahead, I might do it later but typing from my phone again. So here is the link:

http://www.kevinmd.com/blog/2011/04/rea ... -debt.html




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