The Pros of Corporate Law?

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TyrionLannister
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Re: The Pros of Corporate Law?

Postby TyrionLannister » Wed Mar 28, 2012 12:04 pm

Odd Future Wolf Gang wrote:You read, edit, and draft documents like this for 70 hours a week:

http://graphics8.nytimes.com/images/blo ... merger.pdf

And then people yell at you if you missed a comma or a typo.



And then they pay you 160K+ per year. Nearly three times the average household income in this country. And the downside is boredom? How about the military or police where, for a fraction of the income, the downside is death? 160K pays for a lot of luxury to enjoy life outside of those 70 hours.

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RedBirds2011
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Re: The Pros of Corporate Law?

Postby RedBirds2011 » Wed Mar 28, 2012 1:24 pm

And I'm nerdy enough to actually think those documents are pretty cool.

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R2-D2
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Re: The Pros of Corporate Law?

Postby R2-D2 » Wed Mar 28, 2012 1:31 pm

TyrionLannister wrote:
Odd Future Wolf Gang wrote:You read, edit, and draft documents like this for 70 hours a week:

http://graphics8.nytimes.com/images/blo ... merger.pdf

And then people yell at you if you missed a comma or a typo.



And then they pay you 160K+ per year. Nearly three times the average household income in this country. And the downside is boredom? How about the military or police where, for a fraction of the income, the downside is death? 160K pays for a lot of luxury to enjoy life outside of those 70 hours.


Agree 1000%.

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TyrionLannister
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Re: The Pros of Corporate Law?

Postby TyrionLannister » Wed Mar 28, 2012 1:32 pm

RedBirds2011 wrote:And I'm nerdy enough to actually think those documents are pretty cool.



+1

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Always Credited
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Re: The Pros of Corporate Law?

Postby Always Credited » Wed Mar 28, 2012 1:35 pm

TyrionLannister wrote:
Odd Future Wolf Gang wrote:You read, edit, and draft documents like this for 70 hours a week:

http://graphics8.nytimes.com/images/blo ... merger.pdf

And then people yell at you if you missed a comma or a typo.



And then they pay you 160K+ per year. Nearly three times the average household income in this country. And the downside is boredom? How about the military or police where, for a fraction of the income, the downside is death? 160K pays for a lot of luxury to enjoy life outside of those 70 hours.


I would personally join the military or NYPD in a heartbeat over working in biglaw, but I understand this is an extreme minority position. I derive the value of my work not from the amount I'm paid, but from doing something that furthers a particular cause in which I believe.

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TyrionLannister
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Re: The Pros of Corporate Law?

Postby TyrionLannister » Wed Mar 28, 2012 1:57 pm

Always Credited wrote:
TyrionLannister wrote:
Odd Future Wolf Gang wrote:You read, edit, and draft documents like this for 70 hours a week:

http://graphics8.nytimes.com/images/blo ... merger.pdf

And then people yell at you if you missed a comma or a typo.



And then they pay you 160K+ per year. Nearly three times the average household income in this country. And the downside is boredom? How about the military or police where, for a fraction of the income, the downside is death? 160K pays for a lot of luxury to enjoy life outside of those 70 hours.


I would personally join the military or NYPD in a heartbeat over working in biglaw, but I understand this is an extreme minority position. I derive the value of my work not from the amount I'm paid, but from doing something that furthers a particular cause in which I believe.



Then why are you here posting on TLS?

EDIT: I originally misread that as you would rather join the NYPD, etc. than be a lawyer. Apologies. I don't think you are in a totally extreme minority. I think a lot of people aspire to law to do good for society. Perhaps that is my own idealistic assumption. I just see accepting the biglaw life not as selling your soul for cash, but just another avenue to take. But if long, dense contacts bore you to death beyond any possible remedy, than avoid at all costs for sure. Leave that position for someone who wants the $$$! :D

organic muskrat
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Re: The Pros of Corporate Law?

Postby organic muskrat » Wed Mar 28, 2012 2:32 pm

I am a 0L, I may be attending a T20, and I am considering BigLaw.

What can I do this summer to help secure a 1L summer associate position?

I understand that 1L grades matter more than what I do this summer, but I want to get a head start.

Any advice?

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rayiner
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Re: The Pros of Corporate Law?

Postby rayiner » Wed Mar 28, 2012 4:24 pm

Always Credited wrote:
TyrionLannister wrote:
Odd Future Wolf Gang wrote:You read, edit, and draft documents like this for 70 hours a week:

http://graphics8.nytimes.com/images/blo ... merger.pdf

And then people yell at you if you missed a comma or a typo.



And then they pay you 160K+ per year. Nearly three times the average household income in this country. And the downside is boredom? How about the military or police where, for a fraction of the income, the downside is death? 160K pays for a lot of luxury to enjoy life outside of those 70 hours.


I would personally join the military or NYPD in a heartbeat over working in biglaw, but I understand this is an extreme minority position. I derive the value of my work not from the amount I'm paid, but from doing something that furthers a particular cause in which I believe.


Suppressing black people?

Renzo
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Re: The Pros of Corporate Law?

Postby Renzo » Wed Mar 28, 2012 5:48 pm

rayiner wrote:
Always Credited wrote:I would personally join the military or NYPD in a heartbeat over working in biglaw, but I understand this is an extreme minority position. I derive the value of my work not from the amount I'm paid, but from doing something that furthers a particular cause in which I believe.


Suppressing black people?


Ticketing people for taking up two seats on the subway?

Renzo
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Re: The Pros of Corporate Law?

Postby Renzo » Wed Mar 28, 2012 5:50 pm

Oh, and as an aside, everything that Rayiner said in this thread should be taken as if spoken directly from lips of god. It couldn't be more right.

Although for me, it wasn't a door that closes; when people asked me why I was going to law school, I told them I wanted to have a job where someone else took out the trash.

challengeer
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insider trading

Postby challengeer » Wed Mar 28, 2012 6:19 pm

Illegal insider trading weakens the faith of investors in the investing system and an unchecked insider trading could keep off people from investing capital and this could potentially harm the economy as a whole.insider trading

Renzo
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Re: insider trading

Postby Renzo » Wed Mar 28, 2012 6:54 pm

challengeer wrote:Illegal insider trading weakens the faith of investors in the investing system and an unchecked insider trading could keep off people from investing capital and this could potentially harm the economy as a whole.insider trading


IBTB?

blsingindisguise
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Re: The Pros of Corporate Law?

Postby blsingindisguise » Sat Mar 31, 2012 11:01 pm

TyrionLannister wrote:
Odd Future Wolf Gang wrote:You read, edit, and draft documents like this for 70 hours a week:

http://graphics8.nytimes.com/images/blo ... merger.pdf

And then people yell at you if you missed a comma or a typo.



And then they pay you 160K+ per year. Nearly three times the average household income in this country. And the downside is boredom? How about the military or police where, for a fraction of the income, the downside is death? 160K pays for a lot of luxury to enjoy life outside of those 70 hours.


I think this is a fair point -- if you want $160K a year don't complain about the things you have to do earn the 160K. At the same time, it's perfectly reasonable for someone to say that it's not worth what you give up. There are plenty of people -- in fact most Americans, I'd guess -- who wouldn't want to give up time with their family, their athletic leagues, their entertainment, their religious activities, getting a good nights' sleep most nights etc. just to live the "life of luxury" $160K affords (a lot of which, aside from paying off student loans, winds up being paying for all the services that you need to make it possible to work the 70-80/hr weeks in the first place, like a cleaning lady, wash-and-fold laundry service, living in a doorman building so someone gets your packages, etc.) It's also worth noting that 160K a year won't seem like as much as you think if you have significant loans. You'll still probably live in a tiny apartment, for example.

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TyrionLannister
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Re: The Pros of Corporate Law?

Postby TyrionLannister » Sun Apr 01, 2012 3:45 am

blsingindisguise wrote:There are plenty of people -- in fact most Americans, I'd guess -- who wouldn't want to give up time with their family, their athletic leagues, their entertainment, their religious activities, getting a good nights' sleep most nights etc. just to live the "life of luxury" $160K affords (a lot of which, aside from paying off student loans, winds up being paying for all the services that you need to make it possible to work the 70-80/hr weeks in the first place, like a cleaning lady, wash-and-fold laundry service, living in a doorman building so someone gets your packages, etc.) It's also worth noting that 160K a year won't seem like as much as you think if you have significant loans. You'll still probably live in a tiny apartment, for example.


A valid point. I would question your notion that "most" Americans would turn that opportunity down, however. I'd say that a fair amount would kill for that job, income, and stability. No real need to argue exactly how many would or wouldn't, we both are just speculating. The work required to earn the 160K is certainly not for everyone. Hell, it may not even be for me. I can say with no certainty as a 0L what my true feelings would be towards that. I don't know if I would be willing to sacrifice anything and everything for Biglaw. I do know, however, that I have worked a lot of shitty jobs for a lot less money. I also know, like a lot of Americans, what kind of sleepless nights you get when you don't have enough money for bills/mortgage/food to feed your kids. Those nights are suffocating and they burn you to your soul. I know I never want to feel that way again, and 160K would go a long way to ensuring that! :)

To be fair, I never said "life of luxury", I said "luxury to enjoy life". In this case I meant "luxury" as in "freedom", not "luxury" as in "wealth". I have a very good idea how far 160000 goes. While I am not from NYC, I'm assuming that you were referencing NYC Biglaw by your mention of a doorman building. A quick Google search leads me to believe that after taxes in NYC one would take home just shy of 100K. Is it not possible to live in NYC with a 100,000 annual net income? Perhaps you personally are so tired after working 70-80 hours a week that you can't pick up after yourself or do a simple load of laundry, but that is not the case for everyone. Another quick Google of Manhattan apartment rents finds that they are in the area of $3300 on average. Granted, perhaps these are not "doorman" buildings as you say one would require in order to get your packages for you. I have no clue as to why that alone would be that deciding factor, but perhaps there is another way to get your mail? I daresay someone in a doorman-less apartment has figured out a way to get their amazon.com orders sent to them while they are at work.

So 100K net is around $8300 a month. Assuming loans of 150K, that equals a 10 year payout of $1700 a month (just tossed in a 6.5% interest rate. No idea what the actual one would be depending on specific type...) This would leave $3300 remaining for monthly expenses. But wait, what about bonuses? Granted, times are tough and not all associates will qualify. Let's just say for the sake of argument that those who frequent TLS are the hardworking, go-getter types who would earn a bonus. Bonus amounts seem to be all across the board. Cravath is notoriously cheap and gives first years around $7500. Finnegan first year bonuses average around $15K (even approaching $33K for some lucky saps! All referenced info from abovethelaw.com, btw) We will play it safe and factor in a bonus of $7500, or averaging out to $625/month. It is important to note that bonuses go up every year of subsequent employment, so we are working with ground floor numbers here.

Are you saying that it is not possible to live a productive, prosperous life with $4000/month for living expenses after rent and loans are paid? If you already live in Manhattan, you really don't need a car or car insurance, so there is an expense out the window. Food, clothing, entertainment, would all equate to over $4000? Cell phone would most likely be on the company dime, as well as a lot of food expenses and possibly even a health club membership to stay fit and trim. I would argue that, after all that, you could do a hell of a lot with $1000 a week. Especially if you are spending 70-80 hours at work NOT spending money! :wink: And in less expensive cities, the 160K would go even further...

In the end, I'm just being a smart ass and having fun with numbers. LSAT study procrastination at its finest.

Most likely no one here is frothing at the mouth to do insane amounts of document review, so if you want the money, you want the money. If not, then not.

May we all be so lucky as to stare that decision in the face somewhere in the near future...

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CattyPake
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Re: The Pros of Corporate Law?

Postby CattyPake » Sun Apr 01, 2012 12:34 pm

.
Last edited by CattyPake on Sun Apr 01, 2012 9:49 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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FantasticMrFox
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Re: The Pros of Corporate Law?

Postby FantasticMrFox » Sun Apr 01, 2012 3:20 pm

[ERROR: 404] or is it just me

Renzo
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Re: The Pros of Corporate Law?

Postby Renzo » Sun Apr 01, 2012 4:54 pm

FantasticMrFox wrote:[ERROR: 404] or is it just me


Just you.

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mvonh001
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Re: The Pros of Corporate Law?

Postby mvonh001 » Sun Apr 01, 2012 5:12 pm

me too.

FantasticMrFox wrote:[ERROR: 404] or is it just me

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MrPapagiorgio
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Re: The Pros of Corporate Law?

Postby MrPapagiorgio » Sun Apr 01, 2012 5:29 pm

I'm dying reading this with all the word changes.

blsingindisguise
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Re: The Pros of Corporate Law?

Postby blsingindisguise » Sun Apr 01, 2012 9:32 pm

madskrilla and error 404 sound like names of dubstep djs

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minnbills
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Re: The Pros of Corporate Law?

Postby minnbills » Sun Apr 01, 2012 10:15 pm

MrPapagiorgio wrote:I'm dying reading this with all the word changes.

de5igual
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Re: The Pros of Corporate Law?

Postby de5igual » Sun Apr 01, 2012 10:37 pm

rayiner wrote:
Always Credited wrote:
R2-D2 wrote:Sounds like truly great work. I've also been gravitating to this because of my parents; while not lawyers, they are businesspeople, and they deal with a lot of contracts. I've read a lot of contracts that they've worked on, and even helped them edit them sometimes. Do you think skills like this would help me in magic unicorns? Also, I've done very well in the fields of geography, foreign affairs, and history (throughout my school years as well as during college; I'm a History major). Do skills like this translate well into magic unicorns, and could I put them into good use in any way (multinational business deals, etc.)?


The only abilities that translate well into magic unicorns are the abilities to have a terrible family life/no family life, have an extremely unhealthy lifestyle of never working out and not sleeping enough, and deal with assholes all day in numerous capacities. The last one isn't industry or field specific, but may help you the most.


You're over-stating your case. It's a "x, y, and z: pick two" situation. My dad's [ERROR: 404] as a public health consultant involves more than big law hours, plus extensive travel, and he's been doing it for over 30 years. Yet, he's got a great relationship with me and my brother, he eats healthy, he works out regularly. In trade-off, he has no hobbies and takes very little personal time.

The problem is that Americans, mostly white Americans, have these idealized notions of non-work time that involve highly structured, planned activities. A vacation means something two weeks long, far away, planned months in advance. Quality time with your kids means showing up during business hours to highly structured activities. Working out means a structured regimen of exercise with a regular schedule. And if your [ERROR: 404] is too demanding to allow you to partake in this highly scheduled activities, well then you can't take vacations, spend quality time with your kids, or work out.

These ideas are, of course, ridiculous. An impromptu stay-cation can be just as relaxing as fighting crowds at some popular tourist destination. A child, who by the way doesn't really remember anything that happens to it before the age of ten, doesn't need a structured schedule of school plays and team sports to be well-adjusted. He's happy to run in circles all day and have his dad help him with his multiplication tables in the evening. You don't need to maintain the workout regimen of a CK model to be healthy. It's OK not to be able to see your abs.

If you need to be able to schedule drinks with your friends on a week day, big law is not for you. Neither is consulting, finance, medicine or engineering, for that matter. But it's incorrect to confuse the scheduling constraint (can't schedule drinks ahead of time) with the time constraint (can't find time to get drinks). In very few demanding [ERROR: 404] do you work constantly. You have down time, you just don't know when. If you're not spontaneous and flexible in using that down time, your life can be miserable. If you are, then it can be entirely tolerable, as long as you accept that your lifestyle is just incompatible with certain things.


agree with all of the above...esp the part about white entitlement/expectations. however, the bolded i strongly disagree with.

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rayiner
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Re: The Pros of Corporate Law?

Postby rayiner » Sun Apr 01, 2012 11:48 pm

f0bolous wrote:
rayiner wrote:
Always Credited wrote:
R2-D2 wrote:Sounds like truly great work. I've also been gravitating to this because of my parents; while not lawyers, they are businesspeople, and they deal with a lot of contracts. I've read a lot of contracts that they've worked on, and even helped them edit them sometimes. Do you think skills like this would help me in magic unicorns? Also, I've done very well in the fields of geography, foreign affairs, and history (throughout my school years as well as during college; I'm a History major). Do skills like this translate well into magic unicorns, and could I put them into good use in any way (multinational business deals, etc.)?


The only abilities that translate well into magic unicorns are the abilities to have a terrible family life/no family life, have an extremely unhealthy lifestyle of never working out and not sleeping enough, and deal with assholes all day in numerous capacities. The last one isn't industry or field specific, but may help you the most.


You're over-stating your case. It's a "x, y, and z: pick two" situation. My dad's [ERROR: 404] as a public health consultant involves more than big law hours, plus extensive travel, and he's been doing it for over 30 years. Yet, he's got a great relationship with me and my brother, he eats healthy, he works out regularly. In trade-off, he has no hobbies and takes very little personal time.

The problem is that Americans, mostly white Americans, have these idealized notions of non-work time that involve highly structured, planned activities. A vacation means something two weeks long, far away, planned months in advance. Quality time with your kids means showing up during business hours to highly structured activities. Working out means a structured regimen of exercise with a regular schedule. And if your [ERROR: 404] is too demanding to allow you to partake in this highly scheduled activities, well then you can't take vacations, spend quality time with your kids, or work out.

These ideas are, of course, ridiculous. An impromptu stay-cation can be just as relaxing as fighting crowds at some popular tourist destination. A child, who by the way doesn't really remember anything that happens to it before the age of ten, doesn't need a structured schedule of school plays and team sports to be well-adjusted. He's happy to run in circles all day and have his dad help him with his multiplication tables in the evening. You don't need to maintain the workout regimen of a CK model to be healthy. It's OK not to be able to see your abs.

If you need to be able to schedule drinks with your friends on a week day, big law is not for you. Neither is consulting, finance, medicine or engineering, for that matter. But it's incorrect to confuse the scheduling constraint (can't schedule drinks ahead of time) with the time constraint (can't find time to get drinks). In very few demanding [ERROR: 404] do you work constantly. You have down time, you just don't know when. If you're not spontaneous and flexible in using that down time, your life can be miserable. If you are, then it can be entirely tolerable, as long as you accept that your lifestyle is just incompatible with certain things.


agree with all of the above...esp the part about white entitlement/expectations. however, the bolded i strongly disagree with.


Image

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JCougar
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Re: The Pros of Corporate Law?

Postby JCougar » Tue Apr 03, 2012 1:09 pm

rayiner wrote:Big law is a lot of hours, and it's a huge commitment on your time, but for what you're getting paid its a good deal. Law is just full of people straight from undergrad who have never worked a professional job before. As such they have no appreciation for things like working in an office with a door that fuckig closes. They went to undergrad majoring in Poli-Sci thinking they'd be advising Presidents and shit. They talk constantly about how much better other jobs are (consulting, finance, engineering). Well, I worked at a tech startup and if I described it the way lawyers describe law, I would talk only about how you work insane hours to meet ridiculous deadlines resulting from marketing making promises engineering camt keep. About how you get into this bizarre game of overestimating how long it takes to do anything because project management never leaves time in the schedule for anything not going 100% right. About how you can spend days looking through stack traces to pinpoint a single bug that only happens to one customer on the other side of the planet who needs to be talked down at 3 am local time. The fact that the 10% of the time when you're doing design work the job is tremendously stimulating, creative, and fulfilling would be left out.


Bravo.

Basically every entry level business/corporate job is 90% bullshit, busywork and office politics, and it's very likely you'll get micromanaged by some passive-aggressive, petty lost soul who's on a smorgasbord of anti-depressants and way too much caffeine. And the work you do will be mostly stuff that you could have done with a high-school diploma. Only 5-10% of what you do an a daily basis will require the degree you got.

And if you want to move up, you'll have to work 60-80 hours a week. My friend is an engineering consultant with an MS. He works about 70 hours a week on your average week. He's been doing it for about 5 years now, and just started making 6 figures. He had a hearty chuckle when I told him law students complain that Biglaw forces you to work 80 hours a week some weeks...while making twice as much money as he did starting out.

Renzo
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Re: The Pros of Corporate Law?

Postby Renzo » Wed Apr 04, 2012 10:53 am

JCougar wrote:
And if you want to move up, you'll have to work 60-80 hours a week. My friend is an engineering consultant with an MS. He works about 70 hours a week on your average week. He's been doing it for about 5 years now, and just started making 6 figures. He had a hearty chuckle when I told him law students complain that Biglaw forces you to work 80 hours a week some weeks...while making twice as much money as he did starting out.


You are right, this is something else young law students under-appreciate. Yes, there are tons of jobs in the world that let you work a casual 9 to 5 with lots of holidays. And if all you want from life is to be able to keep the rent paid, there are plenty of relatively menial administrative jobs you can work in until you die. But, in just about any profession, if you want to be successful and progress, you will be working long hours.

If I do a quick mental survey of my non-lawyer friends, they work in a wide variety of industries (comic books, architect, fashion design, venture capital, retail, medicine, major league baseball, Google, etc.) but every single last one of them works long hours, works weekends, and vacations can be tough to get.




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