How do I crush his dreams?

(Applications Advice, Letters of Recommendation . . . )
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JustE
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Re: How do I crush his dreams?

Postby JustE » Thu Mar 22, 2012 3:19 pm

spleenworship wrote:You have to make a good faith effort to try using what people here suggested, but accept going in that he is unlikely to change his mind.

Also, if it wasn't already suggested, try sending him to employment and school threads on Abovethelaw.com


Ultimately people on TLS kept me from going. It took a full 3 pages, but I finally got the message. That's the best answer I have. Have him create a TLS account and create a post asking for opinions. After that, help him create a plan to study for the LSAT. I honestly think anyone can crack 160 with a little time. I think most people can get in the high 160s if they commit to learning the test and bust their ass.

Good luck with the convo! :?

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bk1
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Re: How do I crush his dreams?

Postby bk1 » Thu Mar 22, 2012 3:23 pm

JustE wrote:Ultimately people on TLS kept me from going. It took a full 3 pages, but I finally got the message. That's the best answer I have. Have him create a TLS account and create a post asking for opinions.


I was in the same boat and it worked on me. Though my guess is that it has an, at best, 50/50 shot of succeeding on people in general.

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acrossthelake
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Re: How do I crush his dreams?

Postby acrossthelake » Thu Mar 22, 2012 3:26 pm

Have him read the opinion in this case:

http://abovethelaw.com/2012/03/breaking ... dismissed/

--ImageRemoved--

rad lulz
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Re: How do I crush his dreams?

Postby rad lulz » Thu Mar 22, 2012 3:31 pm

.
Last edited by rad lulz on Sun Apr 21, 2013 5:44 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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JustE
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Re: How do I crush his dreams?

Postby JustE » Thu Mar 22, 2012 3:32 pm

rad lulz wrote:Some chick asked me my opinion about going to a TTT at sticker, and I didn't give her the full fury of my wrath, because I was trying to hook up w her, which I subsequently did later. Am I a bad person?


Depends on how hot she was, bro. Either way, you should tell her now. lol.

ETA: #1700

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splitbrain
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Re: How do I crush his dreams?

Postby splitbrain » Thu Mar 22, 2012 3:34 pm

PitchO20 wrote:Unfortunately, if you want to preserve your friendship, you really can't say anything. More likely than not it's just going to cause resentment.

This. I lost a friend because I questioned their decision to attend a TTT-TTTT at sticker when they didn't even want to be a lawyer. It just is what it is. Just try to not look down upon them if they make a decision you disagree with.

moose
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Re: How do I crush his dreams?

Postby moose » Thu Mar 22, 2012 6:26 pm

Point him toward the scam blogs and TLS threads,....these convinced me not to go to law school even though I got into UVA,...can't imagine it won't work for somebody looking to go to a TTT.

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FryBreadPower
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Re: How do I crush his dreams?

Postby FryBreadPower » Thu Mar 22, 2012 6:27 pm

For some reason or another, people take the whole, "don't go to that school if you want to be a lawyer" way more personally than the same conversation replaced with different professions. You tell someone they probably shouldn't be an I-banker and they don't respond nearly as negatively as they do with the above conversation.

moose
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Re: How do I crush his dreams?

Postby moose » Thu Mar 22, 2012 6:34 pm

FryBreadPower wrote:For some reason or another, people take the whole, "don't go to that school if you want to be a lawyer" way more personally than the same conversation replaced with different professions. You tell someone they probably shouldn't be an I-banker and they don't respond nearly as negatively as they do with the above conversation.


Probably because people that are lost (career wise) don't take kindly to others obstructing what they perceive as their way out. And i-banking or other professions simply don't attract lost folks at the same rate that the law does.

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spleenworship
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Re: How do I crush his dreams?

Postby spleenworship » Thu Mar 22, 2012 7:09 pm

moose wrote:
FryBreadPower wrote:For some reason or another, people take the whole, "don't go to that school if you want to be a lawyer" way more personally than the same conversation replaced with different professions. You tell someone they probably shouldn't be an I-banker and they don't respond nearly as negatively as they do with the above conversation.


Probably because people that are lost (career wise) don't take kindly to others obstructing what they perceive as their way out. And i-banking or other professions simply don't attract lost folks at the same rate that the law does.



I am guessing " don't go to medical school" is probably also taken pretty personally.

Skump
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Re: How do I crush his dreams?

Postby Skump » Thu Mar 22, 2012 8:16 pm

How do you dissuade him from attending law school? Easily.

Handcuff your friend to a chair, and force him to read thirty pages of a random admin law casebook. Tell him that you'll only free him once he can respond to questions about the material with some modest level of accuracy and comprehension.

Then, when you finally do release him, say, "welcome to every day of your fucking law school life."

rad lulz
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Re: How do I crush his dreams?

Postby rad lulz » Thu Mar 22, 2012 9:13 pm

.
Last edited by rad lulz on Sun Apr 21, 2013 5:44 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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spleenworship
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Re: How do I crush his dreams?

Postby spleenworship » Thu Mar 22, 2012 9:40 pm

Skump wrote:How do you dissuade him from attending law school? Easily.

Handcuff your friend to a chair, and force him to read thirty pages of a random admin law casebook. Tell him that you'll only free him once he can respond to questions about the material with some modest level of accuracy and comprehension.

Then, when you finally do release him, say, "welcome to every day of your fucking law school life."


+1

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941law
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Re: How do I crush his dreams?

Postby 941law » Thu Mar 22, 2012 10:10 pm

just preface your advice with "worst time ever to go to law school and you're better of pursuing other things, but..."

sleep like a baby

Gleason
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Re: How do I crush his dreams?

Postby Gleason » Thu Mar 22, 2012 10:41 pm

I don't think it would be too hard to talk to him about this tactfully. If he doesn't listen,... what can ya do..

So you go to law school. Exaggerate how bad it is for students from your school, how you know someone from school X who's jobless. Tell him that it was a really hard decision to go to law school because of the legal economy and tell him that "before he goes" he owes it to himself to understand how bad it is. Give him some pointers for articles and where to look. He might just find it on his own.

Don't say "the LSAT isn't indicative of your intelligence" or whatever the suggestion was. That's transparent and condescending. Rather, go on and on about how law school admissions are bogus because of USWR and how much that sucks and how he should really be going to your school and it's a huge injustice that it's all based on these two silly numbers.

In short, keep it off him, in the abstract and in terms of your experience.

.. Not the same thing exactly, but I've done this a couple times when I've started tutoring someone new who was aiming really low because they were PTing in the 140s. I'd talk them off the cliff they were thinking about jumping from. I'd just always keep in the abstract or in terms of my experience, and, since I was tutoring, I'd talk about how the LSAT is really just a matter of a good tutor, study habits and putting in the time to learn the right way. "I'll get you through it. I can tell you have the mind for it. It's just a matter of getting it all aligned for the test."

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lnoy
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Re: How do I crush his dreams?

Postby lnoy » Thu Mar 22, 2012 11:00 pm

Tanicius wrote:Not sure that's the greatest advice. The problem with TTT-trashing threads is that the target audience perceives it (and justly so) as a personal attack on their identity/ego.



+1

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hung jury
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Re: How do I crush his dreams?

Postby hung jury » Fri Mar 23, 2012 2:17 am

A tactful way to do this is along these lines:

"One of the problems with choosing between law schools is that the data they show you doesn't give a good picture of how good their employment prospects are; they all try to make it sound like their placement records are better than they are. At my ttt14 school, for instance, we publish numbers that suggest we have X employment when really the school is paying grads to boost the numbers so they can report better hiring statistics than they have. But one of the best sites for viewing the info that is out there is Law School Transparency. You should try using it if you are comparing schools, as not all schools that seem the same really are."

Then they have the info. And send them rando law links from sites (TLS, ATL) about fun topics -- 70 year old lawprof pulls out penis to law student!11! (ATL) -- and hope they look around a little bit. If you don't say anything and they are 200k in the hole, how will that go over? Just stay away from patronizing, it doesn't do anyone any good.

ETA: Just noticed he only got into one school. In any event, finding pretense to pass along information was my main point.

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noleknight16
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Re: How do I crush his dreams?

Postby noleknight16 » Fri Mar 23, 2012 3:14 am

You can lead a horse to water, but you cannot make it drink.

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GimmeRoom
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Re: How do I crush his dreams?

Postby GimmeRoom » Fri Mar 23, 2012 10:16 am

In the conversation I mentioned earlier, I remember talking about how law schools lied about their employment numbers/average salaries etc and that segment went something like this

friend: yeah, I'll have 150k+ of debt but I'm going into a field that pays an average of 85k, and have a good shot at 100k+
me: it's really tough to get a job that pays 100k
friend: honestly, I'd be ok with 75k
me: it's still really tough to get a job that pays 75k
friend: honestly, I'd be ok with 50k
me: it might be tough to get 50k, a lot of people start at 30-40k
friend: honestly, I'd be ok with 30-40k
me: a lot of people can't even get employed full time, and have to find temporary jobs or jobs that don't require a JD
friend: honestly, I'd be ok with that
...

:(

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JustE
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Re: How do I crush his dreams?

Postby JustE » Fri Mar 23, 2012 10:21 am

^ LOL.

Me: Okay. Go for it.

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20130312
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Re: How do I crush his dreams?

Postby 20130312 » Fri Mar 23, 2012 11:59 am

GimmeRoom wrote:In the conversation I mentioned earlier, I remember talking about how law schools lied about their employment numbers/average salaries etc and that segment went something like this

friend: yeah, I'll have 150k+ of debt but I'm going into a field that pays an average of 85k, and have a good shot at 100k+
me: it's really tough to get a job that pays 100k
friend: honestly, I'd be ok with 75k
me: it's still really tough to get a job that pays 75k
friend: honestly, I'd be ok with 50k
me: it might be tough to get 50k, a lot of people start at 30-40k
friend: honestly, I'd be ok with 30-40k
me: a lot of people can't even get employed full time, and have to find temporary jobs or jobs that don't require a JD
friend: honestly, I'd be ok with that
...

:(


Wow. Well, at least your friend will be okay with anything life throws their way.

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spleenworship
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Re: How do I crush his dreams?

Postby spleenworship » Fri Mar 23, 2012 1:49 pm

InGoodFaith wrote:
GimmeRoom wrote:In the conversation I mentioned earlier, I remember talking about how law schools lied about their employment numbers/average salaries etc and that segment went something like this

friend: yeah, I'll have 150k+ of debt but I'm going into a field that pays an average of 85k, and have a good shot at 100k+
me: it's really tough to get a job that pays 100k
friend: honestly, I'd be ok with 75k
me: it's still really tough to get a job that pays 75k
friend: honestly, I'd be ok with 50k
me: it might be tough to get 50k, a lot of people start at 30-40k
friend: honestly, I'd be ok with 30-40k
me: a lot of people can't even get employed full time, and have to find temporary jobs or jobs that don't require a JD
friend: honestly, I'd be ok with that
...

:(


Wow. Well, at least your friend will be okay with anything life throws their way.


3 years of law school will destroy that sense of equanimity.

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Jaeger
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Re: How do I crush his dreams?

Postby Jaeger » Fri Mar 23, 2012 1:54 pm

Sometimes lemmings just want to jump off the cliff.

EdgarWinter
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Re: How do I crush his dreams?

Postby EdgarWinter » Sun Mar 25, 2012 5:17 pm

.
Last edited by EdgarWinter on Thu Mar 28, 2013 10:18 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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RedBirds2011
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Re: How do I crush his dreams?

Postby RedBirds2011 » Sun Mar 25, 2012 5:32 pm

Describe to him in detail what taking out 200,000 in loans means as far as monthly payments after graduation. A lot of students don't understand how much those loans really are and how they will affect their financial status upon graduation.

Going non top 14 isn't the end of the world, but he needs to understand what lots of loans means post graduation. If he really wants to be a lawyer and for the right reasons, definitely should retake. If he cant get much higher, then maybe obtain employment and look into going part time somewhere in a region he has good connections,minimal debt, and where he would like to practice the rest of his life. I don't think it needs to be as blunt as don't go but he definitely needs to think about a way to prevent super debt.




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