A suggestion

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Paul Campos
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Re: A suggestion

Postby Paul Campos » Mon Mar 19, 2012 4:55 pm

R86 wrote:Mr. Campos,

Can you help me out with a full ride + stipend to Colorado? I'm well above both medians.

I assumed it was quite the opposite from what you're saying, and have been holding off applying until next year thinking that the limited amount of good scholarship offers have already been given out.


I don't think people understand what law school "scholarships" are. They are, with very few exceptions, simply cross-subsidized tuition. In other words, to use a simplified example, a school may advertise a tuition of $40K, but in practice half the class pays that, 40% pays $20K, and 10% pays nothing. If the class has 200 students this makes total tuition $5.6 million, with mean tuition being $28K, and the 100 students paying $40K paying for the "scholarships" of the 100 students paying less than that. So it's not true that, with largely trivial exceptions, there's "less" tuition money late in the application process, since tuition scholarships are cross-subsidized by admits paying full freight. There's less money if the class is strong, and more if it's weak.

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Tom Joad
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Re: A suggestion

Postby Tom Joad » Mon Mar 19, 2012 4:57 pm

MTBike wrote:Does Campos really not have anything better to do than troll around on threads?

Most the TLS regulars have been pretty successful compared to the average law school debt peons so I think we can safely conclude post count doesn't correlate to real life success.

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Samara
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Re: A suggestion

Postby Samara » Mon Mar 19, 2012 4:57 pm

Paul Campos wrote:
Samara wrote:I'm sure there are a ton schools that have the money sitting around to throw a full-ride + stipend at students that are only above one median.

If the applicant pool is down, won't that just mean that LSAT medians will weaken across the board and relative medians will stay the same? Plus, a lot of schools are shrinking their class sizes to compensate for the drop in applicants.


A "full ride" costs a school nothing if the alternative is one less student in the class. A $3000 stipend costs . . . let's see here, roughly $3000.

LSAT medians will certainly not weaken in a linear manner. Some schools will fight hard to maintain theirs, which they can do on the cheap by filling seats that would otherwise go empty. Shrinking class size intentionally is pretty much a last resort, especially at lower-ranked schools where the budget is heavily tuition-dependent. A few schools have done it, but it's a sign of desperation. Hence the bargaining power of well-credentialed students late in the cycle when the applicant pool is crashing.

There's also a lot of people applying now who took the LSAT during the crash, presumably since the market is recovering. IIRC, UIUC or NU (can't remember which) stated that applications were only down something like 2% at that point. So, I doubt that applications will be down nearly as much this cycle as the drop in test takers would suggest.

And I understand how marginal costs work. My point is that there are presumably many, many applicants above one median and you can't offer them all a full-ride without incurring significant costs. Yes, a drop in applications may "lower the bar" for full-rides, but that wouldn't change you application strategy. You would still try to negotiate for the best scholarship you can get regardless of the size of the applicant pool. You are suggesting that applicants with no chance of receiving a full-ride ask for one. I am well above NU's LSAT median, but if I were to ask for a full-ride + stipend I would be laughed out of the room.

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MTBike
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Re: A suggestion

Postby MTBike » Mon Mar 19, 2012 5:01 pm

Tom Joad wrote:
MTBike wrote:Does Campos really not have anything better to do than troll around on threads?

Most the TLS regulars have been pretty successful compared to the average law school debt peons so I think we can safely conclude post count doesn't correlate to real life success.


WTF kind of answer was that... not relevant to the question in any way. Did you take the LSAT Jobin?

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Tom Joad
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Re: A suggestion

Postby Tom Joad » Mon Mar 19, 2012 5:03 pm

MTBike wrote:
Tom Joad wrote:
MTBike wrote:Does Campos really not have anything better to do than troll around on threads?

Most the TLS regulars have been pretty successful compared to the average law school debt peons so I think we can safely conclude post count doesn't correlate to real life success.


WTF kind of answer was that... not relevant to the question in any way. Did you take the LSAT Jobin?

No.

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MTBike
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Re: A suggestion

Postby MTBike » Mon Mar 19, 2012 5:08 pm

Tom Joad wrote:
MTBike wrote:
Tom Joad wrote:
MTBike wrote:Does Campos really not have anything better to do than troll around on threads?

Most the TLS regulars have been pretty successful compared to the average law school debt peons so I think we can safely conclude post count doesn't correlate to real life success.


WTF kind of answer was that... not relevant to the question in any way. Did you take the LSAT Jobin?

No.


Ah... mystery solved.

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R86
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Re: A suggestion

Postby R86 » Mon Mar 19, 2012 5:13 pm

:D
Last edited by R86 on Wed Apr 04, 2012 4:42 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Mr. Somebody
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Re: A suggestion

Postby Mr. Somebody » Mon Mar 19, 2012 5:50 pm

Paul Campos wrote:
Gail wrote:
Paul Campos wrote:
banjo wrote:Would this work at any t14s?

One way to find out.

The marginal cost to a school of admitting somebody when otherwise the class would be below its normal size is close to zero. If your LSAT is higher than the school's median then you have something valuable to sell, especially right now.

The people on this forum are still acting like law schools are doing them a favor by admitting them.


From the naked eye, it seems that schools are huffing GPA glue right now. I think that GPA is more of a factor this cycle. At least for money.



GPA works too, although median LSAT is more important to schools because of the idiotic USN rankings formula.

The general point is that law school applicants are buying spots in law school classes, and this has become very much a buyer's market. People should keep that in mind when negotiating with schools.


Professor, do heavy high-LSAT splitters have any leverage this cycle?

Paul Campos
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Re: A suggestion

Postby Paul Campos » Mon Mar 19, 2012 6:28 pm

[/quote]


GPA works too, although median LSAT is more important to schools because of the idiotic USN rankings formula.

The general point is that law school applicants are buying spots in law school classes, and this has become very much a buyer's market. People should keep that in mind when negotiating with schools.[/quote]

Professor, do heavy high-LSAT splitters have any leverage this cycle?[/quote]

Depends on the particular school of course, but applicants in general should have more leverage this cycle because applications are almost certainly going to be way down from last year (when they were way down from the year before).

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Gail
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Re: A suggestion

Postby Gail » Mon Mar 19, 2012 6:42 pm

Anyone think that next year we'll see lower medians? I'm looking at LSN and seeing (UIUC) basically accepting everyone. Are they on the cutting edge of accepting an inevitable numbers plummet?



Does the spirit of the Maverick live?

t14fanboy
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Re: A suggestion

Postby t14fanboy » Mon Mar 19, 2012 6:52 pm

Tom Joad wrote:
Paul Campos wrote:You think Michigan might end up having trouble hitting its median LSAT target this year?

They are MichiGONE.


SSHHHH. They might hear you again.

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Richie Tenenbaum
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Re: A suggestion

Postby Richie Tenenbaum » Mon Mar 19, 2012 7:08 pm

1) Scholarship negotiations (based on money at other schools and other acceptances) aren't a new concept.
2) Some schools do have a "soft" cap, which they will go over sometimes for certain applicants. Other schools can be less flexible. Most schools don't provide merit stipends b/c there isnt strong pressure from either their competition (other law schools) or the applicants themselves (who in the past have been content with full tuition scholarships).
3) Being above one median is typically not good enough for a full scholarship. Just look at the strategy outlined by WUSTL. They've mastered maximizing medians by taking a lot of splitters and just offering some money. UVA operates from a greater bargaining position and gets splitters to attend for sticker with their ED method.

I understand you're trying to help Professor Campos, but your advice isn't new and it's a bit optimistic.

Paul Campos
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Re: A suggestion

Postby Paul Campos » Mon Mar 19, 2012 7:22 pm

Richie Tenenbaum wrote:1) Scholarship negotiations (based on money at other schools and other acceptances) aren't a new concept.
2) Some schools do have a "soft" cap, which they will go over sometimes for certain applicants. Other schools can be less flexible. Most schools don't provide merit stipends b/c there isnt strong pressure from either their competition (other law schools) or the applicants themselves (who in the past have been content with full tuition scholarships).
3) Being above one median is typically not good enough for a full scholarship. Just look at the strategy outlined by WUSTL. They've mastered maximizing medians by taking a lot of splitters and just offering some money. UVA operates from a greater bargaining position and gets splitters to attend for sticker with their ED method.

I understand you're trying to help Professor Campos, but your advice isn't new and it's a bit optimistic.



It may be optimistic, but OTOH law school admissions are very much a moving target at present, a lot of admissions offices are scrambling, and a very aggressive strategy could well pay off. After all if a school cuts you an exceptionally good deal it's not like it sets a precedent for the next admissions season, or even for the next admit who asks.

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spleenworship
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Re: A suggestion

Postby spleenworship » Mon Mar 19, 2012 7:39 pm

Paul Campos wrote:

It may be optimistic, but OTOH law school admissions are very much a moving target at present, a lot of admissions offices are scrambling, and a very aggressive strategy could well pay off. After all if a school cuts you an exceptionally good deal it's not like it sets a precedent for the next admissions season, or even for the next admit who asks.


I love how much this sounds like negotiating tips for dealing with car dealerships.

BTW, I am a fan, Prof. Campos.




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