LSAT retake and HYS CCN

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TennesseeBob
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LSAT retake and HYS CCN

Postby TennesseeBob » Thu Feb 23, 2012 3:01 pm

Does anyone here have any experience/knowledge about how multiple LSATs are really seen today by the top 6 law schools (and also MVP). I've read online that schools in this range (unlike the rest of the T14) still effectively average but have also been told that Harvard and a few others really put heavy weight on the highest score (but still glance at the others).

Would a (say) 165/7 retaken to a 173/4 give someone with otherwise target statistics a shot at any of these places, as opposed to just a 173/4, or is it a moot point after the lower score?

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Nelson
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Re: LSAT retake and HYS CCN

Postby Nelson » Thu Feb 23, 2012 3:05 pm

TennesseeBob wrote:Does anyone here have any experience/knowledge about how multiple LSATs are really seen today by the top 6 law schools (and also MVP). I've read online that schools in this range (unlike the rest of the T14) still effectively average but have also been told that Harvard and a few others really put heavy weight on the highest score (but still glance at the others).

Would a (say) 165/7 retaken to a 173/4 give someone with otherwise target statistics a shot at any of these places, as opposed to just a 173/4, or is it a moot point after the lower score?

There is no retake stigma, even in the T6. Retaker here and it has had 0 effect on my T14 chances. I've gotten in everywhere this cycle that my GPA would predict. This is corroborated by almost every other retaker I've seen on TLS this cycle, even for triple retakers and even at HYS.
Last edited by Nelson on Mon Feb 27, 2012 3:58 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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AntipodeanPhil
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Re: LSAT retake and HYS CCN

Postby AntipodeanPhil » Thu Feb 23, 2012 3:29 pm

Nelson wrote:
TennesseeBob wrote:Does anyone here have any experience/knowledge about how multiple LSATs are really seen today by the top 6 law schools (and also MVP). I've read online that schools in this range (unlike the rest of the T14) still effectively average but have also been told that Harvard and a few others really put heavy weight on the highest score (but still glance at the others).

Would a (say) 165/7 retaken to a 173/4 give someone with otherwise target statistics a shot at any of these places, as opposed to just a 173/4, or is it a moot point after the lower score?

There is no retake stigma, even in the T6. 166 to 172 retake here and it has had 0 effect on my T14 chances. I've gotten in everywhere this cycle that my GPA would predict. This is corroborated by almost every other retaker I've seen on TLS this cycle, even for triple retakers and even at HYS.

+ 1

Retake. For multiple scores, the top schools' words don't fit with their actions.

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Tadatsune
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Re: LSAT retake and HYS CCN

Postby Tadatsune » Thu Feb 23, 2012 6:05 pm

Candidate Cancel -> 164 -> 173
Slightly under median GPA
In at CCN.

No one seemed to care about the retakes.

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Onthebrink
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Re: LSAT retake and HYS CCN

Postby Onthebrink » Thu Feb 23, 2012 6:15 pm

AntipodeanPhil wrote:
Nelson wrote:
TennesseeBob wrote:Does anyone here have any experience/knowledge about how multiple LSATs are really seen today by the top 6 law schools (and also MVP). I've read online that schools in this range (unlike the rest of the T14) still effectively average but have also been told that Harvard and a few others really put heavy weight on the highest score (but still glance at the others).

Would a (say) 165/7 retaken to a 173/4 give someone with otherwise target statistics a shot at any of these places, as opposed to just a 173/4, or is it a moot point after the lower score?

There is no retake stigma, even in the T6. 166 to 172 retake here and it has had 0 effect on my T14 chances. I've gotten in everywhere this cycle that my GPA would predict. This is corroborated by almost every other retaker I've seen on TLS this cycle, even for triple retakers and even at HYS.

+ 1

Retake. For multiple scores, the top schools' words don't fit with their actions.


This. 165/7 absent 171/3 in at CCN

afLSAT
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Re: LSAT retake and HYS CCN

Postby afLSAT » Thu Feb 23, 2012 6:21 pm

Huh. So sounds like it would be good for me to retake with my Cancel --> 167 --> 170.

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birdlaw117
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Re: LSAT retake and HYS CCN

Postby birdlaw117 » Thu Feb 23, 2012 6:24 pm

Nelson wrote:
TennesseeBob wrote:Does anyone here have any experience/knowledge about how multiple LSATs are really seen today by the top 6 law schools (and also MVP). I've read online that schools in this range (unlike the rest of the T14) still effectively average but have also been told that Harvard and a few others really put heavy weight on the highest score (but still glance at the others).

Would a (say) 165/7 retaken to a 173/4 give someone with otherwise target statistics a shot at any of these places, as opposed to just a 173/4, or is it a moot point after the lower score?

There is no retake stigma, even in the T6. 166 to 172 retake here and it has had 0 effect on my T14 chances. I've gotten in everywhere this cycle that my GPA would predict. This is corroborated by almost every other retaker I've seen on TLS this cycle, even for triple retakers and even at HYS.

Not convinced. I've definitely seen retakers underperform. Particularly tripletakers. Though, I'm not sure if those just stick out to me more and they are a part of the normal amount of individuals who underperform, or if there really is a difference.

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Re: LSAT retake and HYS CCN

Postby bp shinners » Thu Feb 23, 2012 6:33 pm

afLSAT wrote:Huh. So sounds like it would be good for me to retake with my Cancel --> 167 --> 170.


If that's your background, you probably can't retake. There's a limit of 3 times in 2 years, and that cancel counts as one time. If those are spread out over more than 2 years, though, you're fine.

As far as retakes go, they're a 'negative' soft. It won't matter that much to the schools unless it comes down to you and someone with an almost-identical background but only one score. That being said, 3 scores with the last one being higher is better than 1 lower score.

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Nelson
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Re: LSAT retake and HYS CCN

Postby Nelson » Thu Feb 23, 2012 7:10 pm

birdlaw117 wrote:
Nelson wrote:
TennesseeBob wrote:Does anyone here have any experience/knowledge about how multiple LSATs are really seen today by the top 6 law schools (and also MVP). I've read online that schools in this range (unlike the rest of the T14) still effectively average but have also been told that Harvard and a few others really put heavy weight on the highest score (but still glance at the others).

Would a (say) 165/7 retaken to a 173/4 give someone with otherwise target statistics a shot at any of these places, as opposed to just a 173/4, or is it a moot point after the lower score?

There is no retake stigma, even in the T6. 166 to 172 retake here and it has had 0 effect on my T14 chances. I've gotten in everywhere this cycle that my GPA would predict. This is corroborated by almost every other retaker I've seen on TLS this cycle, even for triple retakers and even at HYS.

Not convinced. I've definitely seen retakers underperform. Particularly tripletakers. Though, I'm not sure if those just stick out to me more and they are a part of the normal amount of individuals who underperform, or if there really is a difference.

I have not seen much to convince me otherwise this cycle. I suppose it's possibly a small hit but I doubt it's anything you could separate from the normal background noise of people under/over performing their stats based on softs in general. I haven't seen anyone underperform to the point that you would think that schools were averaging.

CCN definitely are taking highest score. H seems to take highest score as well, but there are fewer multiple takers with Harvard GPAs. Anecdotally, a 167/173 3.7x got in this cycle. Stanford and Yale are such small sample sizes it's really hard to separate retakes from everything else.

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Nelson
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Re: LSAT retake and HYS CCN

Postby Nelson » Thu Feb 23, 2012 7:11 pm

bp shinners wrote:
afLSAT wrote:Huh. So sounds like it would be good for me to retake with my Cancel --> 167 --> 170.


If that's your background, you probably can't retake. There's a limit of 3 times in 2 years, and that cancel counts as one time. If those are spread out over more than 2 years, though, you're fine.

As far as retakes go, they're a 'negative' soft. It won't matter that much to the schools unless it comes down to you and someone with an almost-identical background but only one score. That being said, 3 scores with the last one being higher is better than 1 lower score.

I doubt this as well. Is there any evidence that this is the case? Schools are only reporting the top score, why would they care whether it's your first or your third?

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birdlaw117
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Re: LSAT retake and HYS CCN

Postby birdlaw117 » Thu Feb 23, 2012 7:26 pm

Nelson wrote:
birdlaw117 wrote:
Nelson wrote:
TennesseeBob wrote:Does anyone here have any experience/knowledge about how multiple LSATs are really seen today by the top 6 law schools (and also MVP). I've read online that schools in this range (unlike the rest of the T14) still effectively average but have also been told that Harvard and a few others really put heavy weight on the highest score (but still glance at the others).

Would a (say) 165/7 retaken to a 173/4 give someone with otherwise target statistics a shot at any of these places, as opposed to just a 173/4, or is it a moot point after the lower score?

There is no retake stigma, even in the T6. 166 to 172 retake here and it has had 0 effect on my T14 chances. I've gotten in everywhere this cycle that my GPA would predict. This is corroborated by almost every other retaker I've seen on TLS this cycle, even for triple retakers and even at HYS.

Not convinced. I've definitely seen retakers underperform. Particularly tripletakers. Though, I'm not sure if those just stick out to me more and they are a part of the normal amount of individuals who underperform, or if there really is a difference.

I have not seen much to convince me otherwise this cycle. I suppose it's possibly a small hit but I doubt it's anything you could separate from the normal background noise of people under/over performing their stats based on softs in general. I haven't seen anyone underperform to the point that you would think that schools were averaging.

CCN definitely are taking highest score. H seems to take highest score as well, but there are fewer multiple takers with Harvard GPAs. Anecdotally, a 167/173 3.7x got in this cycle. Stanford and Yale are such small sample sizes it's really hard to separate retakes from everything else.

So... you have one person that got in with those numbers, while I am aware of a handful who have struggled both this cycle and last. Yep, your anecdotal evidence is certainly better than mine.

Also, I'm definitely aware of applicants at CCN who I'm quite confident have been hurt by their previous scores.

Oh, and as for "why would they care whether it's your first or third?" Well, if this was the only criteria admissions committees could be replaced by computers.

I'm certainly not saying retaking is a bad idea for most people. Quite the contrary. Retaking and improving one's score will almost always increase their prospects, I just don't think that they are exactly the same as somebody who got that score the first time. Nor do I think they should be, for that matter.

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Nelson
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Re: LSAT retake and HYS CCN

Postby Nelson » Thu Feb 23, 2012 7:46 pm

I didn't say my anecdotes are better than yours or that that one is the only one. I'm saying there are many examples of retakers not being hurt and no evidence that schools literally average scores.

birdlaw117 wrote:Also, I'm definitely aware of applicants at CCN who I'm quite confident have been hurt by their previous scores.

I'd be curious how you determined it was retaking that hurt them.

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Tadatsune
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Re: LSAT retake and HYS CCN

Postby Tadatsune » Thu Feb 23, 2012 11:09 pm

I wonder if retakes are looked at differently if your score goes down significantly...?

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birdlaw117
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Re: LSAT retake and HYS CCN

Postby birdlaw117 » Fri Feb 24, 2012 12:44 am

Nelson wrote:I didn't say my anecdotes are better than yours or that that one is the only one. I'm saying there are many examples of retakers not being hurt and no evidence that schools literally average scores.

birdlaw117 wrote:Also, I'm definitely aware of applicants at CCN who I'm quite confident have been hurt by their previous scores.

I'd be curious how you determined it was retaking that hurt them.

Nobody said literally average, and I didn't say retaking hurt them. I said their cycles did not go according the their highest LSAT. These things are not the same.

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TennesseeBob
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Re: LSAT retake and HYS CCN

Postby TennesseeBob » Fri Feb 24, 2012 12:57 pm

Are the lsat #s reported on lsn and tls' stats profiles averaged scores that people are voluntarily inputting or just the highest? I'm trying to find some more example from these websites but it seems extremely hard to tell who is a retaker and who is not.

Also, a lot of people elsewhere on LSN have claimed that HYS definitely still average while CCN now take the highest. Is there any evidence/explanation for why HYS wouldn't take the highest like the rest of the T14?

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Nelson
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Re: LSAT retake and HYS CCN

Postby Nelson » Fri Feb 24, 2012 1:05 pm

TennesseeBob wrote:Are the lsat #s reported on lsn and tls' stats profiles averaged scores that people are voluntarily inputting or just the highest? I'm trying to find some more example from these websites but it seems extremely hard to tell who is a retaker and who is not.

Also, a lot of people elsewhere on LSN have claimed that HYS definitely still average while CCN now take the highest. Is there any evidence/explanation for why HYS wouldn't take the highest like the rest of the T14?

Any evidence is going to come down to anecdote vs. anecdote like birdlaw and I just went through. The sample sizes here and on LSN are too small (especially at the HYS level) and law school adcomms won't give you an honest answer.

Kind of a moot point from a practical standpoint though. If you have a first/second score that won't get you into the schools you want to attend, it's still worth it to retake. You don't have anything to lose right? Either schools take the highest score and you're fine, or they hold the retake against you, but you wouldn't have gotten in with the old score to begin with.
Last edited by Nelson on Fri Feb 24, 2012 1:54 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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TennesseeBob
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Re: LSAT retake and HYS CCN

Postby TennesseeBob » Fri Feb 24, 2012 1:10 pm

Nelson, that's exactly what I was thinking before but it's a little more complicated than I would like.

I applied to a few T10 schools and I've gotten into one of MVP, had 1 rejection (H), and 1 waitlist. I applied very early in the cycle (about a 4.0 gpa from a top 20 private and believe I have very strong softs) and have yet to hear from several more of the t10 (not being hopeful at this point tho). I know its the LSAT score that's been pulling me down a lot, but I am concerned about risking losing the top 10 admission to MVP.

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Re: LSAT retake and HYS CCN

Postby bp shinners » Fri Feb 24, 2012 1:42 pm

Nelson wrote:
bp shinners wrote:
afLSAT wrote:Huh. So sounds like it would be good for me to retake with my Cancel --> 167 --> 170.


If that's your background, you probably can't retake. There's a limit of 3 times in 2 years, and that cancel counts as one time. If those are spread out over more than 2 years, though, you're fine.

As far as retakes go, they're a 'negative' soft. It won't matter that much to the schools unless it comes down to you and someone with an almost-identical background but only one score. That being said, 3 scores with the last one being higher is better than 1 lower score.

I doubt this as well. Is there any evidence that this is the case? Schools are only reporting the top score, why would they care whether it's your first or your third?


Only personal, anecdotal evidence.

As far as why they'd care, it's because, despite TLS common knowledge, school's (especially at the top) don't make all of their decisions just because of the rankings. In fact, the rankings are set up so that those top schools stay there because of what they're already doing. HYS have more qualified candidates than they know what to do with. Any distinguishing feature is something they can use to separate the top-top candidates from the top candidates.

So while having multiple LSAT scores isn't something that's going to tank your application, I repeat - if it's between two nearly-identical candidates, and one has only one LSAT score, that candidate will get in over the multiple LSAT-taker. If there's wide variation between the scores, it hurts more, but again, that top number still holds much more weight than the lower ones.

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Nelson
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Re: LSAT retake and HYS CCN

Postby Nelson » Fri Feb 24, 2012 2:07 pm

TennesseeBob wrote:Nelson, that's exactly what I was thinking before but it's a little more complicated than I would like.

I applied to a few T10 schools and I've gotten into one of MVP, had 1 rejection (H), and 1 waitlist. I applied very early in the cycle (about a 4.0 gpa from a top 20 private and believe I have very strong softs) and have yet to hear from several more of the t10 (not being hopeful at this point tho). I know its the LSAT score that's been pulling me down a lot, but I am concerned about risking losing the top 10 admission to MVP.

It's hard to say without knowing what your LSAT is, how much prep you did, and what your PT average was. If your LSAT is <170, a retake is almost always worth it for a 4.0 in my opinion. Unless you're going to be unemployed next year, you should be aiming higher than MVP anyway.

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TennesseeBob
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Re: LSAT retake and HYS CCN

Postby TennesseeBob » Sat Feb 25, 2012 5:08 pm

Well for my situation I do have a strong job lined up for next year and my practice score average for about 50 tests was mid to highish 170s and my actual test (I made a stupid error) was a full 10 points lower. While that was super disappointing, some friends have been telling me that getting into UVA law is awesome and that I shouldn't gamble away a top 10.

I know my personal decision is really subjective but that's why I'm curious if other schools seem to be averaging. Any thoughts?

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Tadatsune
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Re: LSAT retake and HYS CCN

Postby Tadatsune » Sat Feb 25, 2012 9:45 pm

TennesseeBob wrote:Well for my situation I do have a strong job lined up for next year and my practice score average for about 50 tests was mid to highish 170s and my actual test (I made a stupid error) was a full 10 points lower. While that was super disappointing, some friends have been telling me that getting into UVA law is awesome and that I shouldn't gamble away a top 10.

I know my personal decision is really subjective but that's why I'm curious if other schools seem to be averaging. Any thoughts?


Do you want to go to UVA? If so, then go.

If not, assuming you have a high GPA and you have the potential to score ~10 pts higher on the LSAT, then I don't see this as much of a gamble. Take the job, retake the test, and then come back in a year or two with a strong shot at whatever school you want. Hell, you might even get into UVA again with $$$.




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