Do schools reject higher scores to admit lower scores?

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turkey
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Do schools reject higher scores to admit lower scores?

Postby turkey » Wed Feb 15, 2012 9:42 pm

Forgive me if this sounds stupid.

I guess what I mean is...if you see a lot of people getting accepted with scores that are over and above the 75% of LSAT/GPA....is there a point where they stop admitting these types and start taking those that fit their 25% LSAT/GPA. I ask because some of my Tier 2 schools seem to have accepted a lot of students with high numbers and my numbers fit with the upper levels. I assume I might get rejected and someone who has lower numbers than me gets in. Not a complaint, just wondering how it works.

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AntipodeanPhil
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Re: Do schools reject higher scores to admit lower scores?

Postby AntipodeanPhil » Wed Feb 15, 2012 9:52 pm

It is generally accepted that some schools reject applicants with numbers well above their medians to protect their yields (the % of accepted students that matriculate, which figures into the rankings).

Is that your question?

There isn't some point in the cycle at which schools suddenly start yield protecting, though.

Yield protecting is much more uncommon than people here would have you believe. Because all we can see here are the numbers, people tend to assume that anyone rejected with numbers well above both medians has been yield protected, when in truth schools do reject some candidates for non-number-based reasons. I forget the details, but statistical evidence has been presented here in the past to show that the t14 don't yield protect, or don't yield protect much.

There are a few schools outside the t14 that quite clearly yield protect, though. A clear example:

http://american.lawschoolnumbers.com/stats/0910/

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hoos89
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Re: Do schools reject higher scores to admit lower scores?

Postby hoos89 » Wed Feb 15, 2012 10:40 pm

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northerniowan
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Re: Do schools reject higher scores to admit lower scores?

Postby northerniowan » Sat Feb 18, 2012 4:08 am

Check out the University of Minnesota thread from this year and it looks like they have done quite a job yield protecting.

SpoonForkSpork
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Re: Do schools reject higher scores to admit lower scores?

Postby SpoonForkSpork » Sat Feb 18, 2012 5:36 am

I believe OP is asking if schools seek a diversity of scores from applicants. I doubt it: I think they all want to max their stats. But what do I know?

pret
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Re: Do schools reject higher scores to admit lower scores?

Postby pret » Sat Feb 18, 2012 11:18 am

Schools may reject an applicant with high scores and admit an applicant with low scores, but I only see this happening if the adcom finds the former to be a dud and the latter to be really unique. LSP told me I had a >5% of getting into Cardozo and Maryland, I got waitlisted at both. However, this is definitely not the norm.

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No13baby
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Re: Do schools reject higher scores to admit lower scores?

Postby No13baby » Sat Feb 18, 2012 12:13 pm

hoos89 wrote:I'm not clear about your question, but I doubt that a lot of people will be admitted to a school with both LSAT and GPA in the 25% range (unless they are URM).

Yes, this. I was accepted to several schools with a GPA around the 25% but an LSAT around the median or higher. Schools won't just take a bunch of applicants at both 75ths and then a bunch at both 25ths - if someone has one low number they'll need to make up for it elsewhere.

Also, it's my understanding that YP usually takes the form of wait listing a strong applicant, not rejecting them outright.

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hoos89
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Re: Do schools reject higher scores to admit lower scores?

Postby hoos89 » Sat Feb 18, 2012 12:50 pm

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vanwinkle
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Re: Do schools reject higher scores to admit lower scores?

Postby vanwinkle » Sat Feb 18, 2012 12:56 pm

hoos89 wrote:
No13baby wrote:
hoos89 wrote:I'm not clear about your question, but I doubt that a lot of people will be admitted to a school with both LSAT and GPA in the 25% range (unless they are URM).

Yes, this. I was accepted to several schools with a GPA around the 25% but an LSAT around the median or higher. Schools won't just take a bunch of applicants at both 75ths and then a bunch at both 25ths - if someone has one low number they'll need to make up for it elsewhere.
Also, it's my understanding that YP usually takes the form of wait listing a strong applicant, not rejecting them outright.

URMs can get in with numbers around both 25ths, though. And not all schools YP. American I know is notorious for this, and they YP'ed me. I don't think T14s really YP though.

At least some T14s do obvious "soft YP" where they WL the applicant and wait for them to say they really want to attend before accepting.

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ThreeRivers
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Re: Do schools reject higher scores to admit lower scores?

Postby ThreeRivers » Sat Feb 18, 2012 3:48 pm

AntipodeanPhil wrote:It is generally accepted that some schools reject applicants with numbers well above their medians to protect their yields (the % of accepted students that matriculate, which figures into the rankings).

Is that your question?

There isn't some point in the cycle at which schools suddenly start yield protecting, though.

Yield protecting is much more uncommon than people here would have you believe. Because all we can see here are the numbers, people tend to assume that anyone rejected with numbers well above both medians has been yield protected, when in truth schools do reject some candidates for non-number-based reasons. I forget the details, but statistical evidence has been presented here in the past to show that the t14 don't yield protect, or don't yield protect much.

There are a few schools outside the t14 that quite clearly yield protect, though. A clear example:

http://american.lawschoolnumbers.com/stats/0910/

Idk, yping is pretty rampant imo.. there are a ton of schools that definitely yield protect. The only part of people over-stating YP on TLS is that some ppl with numbers that aren't even an auto-admit have a semi-surprise of a WL and claim they've been yield protected lol

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masochist
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Re: Do schools reject higher scores to admit lower scores?

Postby masochist » Sat Feb 18, 2012 4:00 pm

If I am not misunderstanding the question, the OP is worried that his or her scores are too high to continue to be considered given the number of people with similarly high scores that have already been accepted.

So, no. This will never, ever, ever, ever happen. No school is trying to protect its medians against an increase.

It is fun to imagine how that program might work, however ...

"Bob, we have to get these medians down pronto. Where are those 145/2.9 applications? We better get schollys to those kids soon before Havard gets all the good ones."

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wallflower1987
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Re: Do schools reject higher scores to admit lower scores?

Postby wallflower1987 » Sat Feb 18, 2012 9:53 pm

masochist wrote:If I am not misunderstanding the question, the OP is worried that his or her scores are too high to continue to be considered given the number of people with similarly high scores that have already been accepted.

So, no. This will never, ever, ever, ever happen. No school is trying to protect its medians against an increase.

It is fun to imagine how that program might work, however ...

"Bob, we have to get these medians down pronto. Where are those 145/2.9 applications? We better get schollys to those kids soon before Havard gets all the good ones."


That is not how YP works. I got YPed at Texas Tech and withdrew because I was accepted at American and Brooklyn. I am a splitter, so it is a tough call (2.81 167), but Texas Tech rejected like one person out of like 25 last year who had between a 165 and 170, including 2/2 between 2.75 and 3.0. Granted, it is possible this was something else, but highly unlikely. They placed me on a waitlist as quickly as American and Brooklyn auto-admitted me.

YP only really happens though when you are way above the median though, and they do not think you are serious about their school. For instance, Texas Tech's 75th percentile LSAT is a 158, so they assume I would not come there. I could have submitted a LOCI and gotten in, I am convinced, but it wasn't high enough on my list and I already had two acceptances I would rather take. But YP is real, and does happen. Splitters are wildcards, I think; they can just use the splitters on the waitlist to fill in for what they need for the stats, high lsat, high gpa, etc... and they have a good chance of getting splitters, who won't be auto-admits at as many places.

But yeah, to make a long story short (too late), law schools generally waitlist to YP I think. I do not think they would likely reject unless you have a 3.95 and a 176 and apply to a T4. They might just reject that, I don't know. Then again, nobody on this entire website really does for sure. So that's my experience and research speaking, for what it's worth!

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moneybagsphd
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Re: Do schools reject higher scores to admit lower scores?

Postby moneybagsphd » Sat Feb 18, 2012 10:04 pm

vanwinkle wrote:At least some T14s do obvious "soft YP" where they WL the applicant and wait for them to say they really want to attend before accepting.

Credited.
If you're above both medians and decline to submit any supplemental materials (essay, interview), you're probably in for the WL.

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AntipodeanPhil
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Re: Do schools reject higher scores to admit lower scores?

Postby AntipodeanPhil » Sat Feb 18, 2012 11:37 pm

ThreeRivers wrote:
AntipodeanPhil wrote:Yield protecting is much more uncommon than people here would have you believe. Because all we can see here are the numbers, people tend to assume that anyone rejected with numbers well above both medians has been yield protected, when in truth schools do reject some candidates for non-number-based reasons. I forget the details, but statistical evidence has been presented here in the past to show that the t14 don't yield protect, or don't yield protect much.

There are a few schools outside the t14 that quite clearly yield protect, though. A clear example:

http://american.lawschoolnumbers.com/stats/0910/

Idk, yping is pretty rampant imo.. there are a ton of schools that definitely yield protect. The only part of people over-stating YP on TLS is that some ppl with numbers that aren't even an auto-admit have a semi-surprise of a WL and claim they've been yield protected lol

Yes, t14 schools reject some people with "auto-admit" numbers (~75% percentile or above), but schools also reject some people with ideal numbers (i.e., numbers at or just above both medians). What the statistics show is that, in the t14, the percentage of applicants in former group is actually fairly similar to the percentage of applicants in the latter group.

The basic point: schools reject some applicants for non-number based reasons. Whenever we see an applicant that a lower-ranked school rejected and a higher-ranked school accepted, we assume YP, but the truth is that in at least some of the cases, the schools are just looking for different (non-numerical) things. It's hard for us to see that because we only see the numbers.

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hoos89
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Re: Do schools reject higher scores to admit lower scores?

Postby hoos89 » Sat Feb 18, 2012 11:46 pm

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dextermorgan
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Re: Do schools reject higher scores to admit lower scores?

Postby dextermorgan » Sun Feb 19, 2012 12:00 am

Sometimes schools will not admit applicants they don't believe will enroll, but schools do not admit 25% applicants to keep their medians the same. That's just stupid.

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PDaddy
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Re: Do schools reject higher scores to admit lower scores?

Postby PDaddy » Sun Feb 19, 2012 12:33 am

:roll: This looks like one of those u-know-what threads in disguise, and the question is silly. If a school is accepting lower numbers in favor of higher numbers, it's for reasons that have nothing to do with it's established medians, 25%/75%, etc.

Third, your claim that you suspect but don't lament that a student with lower numbers may be admitted over you don't is disengenuous, at best. Why wouldn't you complain? Most students have a problem with that when it happens because it means they lacked something in their soft factors that another student possessed. That's like a murder with no motive. It's scary because it's tougher to solve...looking for the magic stuff that makes an admissions committee say "Yes", right?

Other than that, yeah...this is a covert u-know-what thread...worded so that the subject is raised without OP having to raise it. :roll:
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PDaddy
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Re: Do schools reject higher scores to admit lower scores?

Postby PDaddy » Sun Feb 19, 2012 12:40 am

AntipodeanPhil wrote:
ThreeRivers wrote:
Idk, yping is pretty rampant imo.. there are a ton of schools that definitely yield protect. The only part of people over-stating YP on TLS is that some ppl with numbers that aren't even an auto-admit have a semi-surprise of a WL and claim they've been yield protected lol

Yes, t14 schools reject some people with "auto-admit" numbers (~75% percentile or above), but schools also reject some people with ideal numbers (i.e., numbers at or just above both medians). What the statistics show is that, in the t14, the percentage of applicants in former group is actually fairly similar to the percentage of applicants in the latter group.

The basic point: schools reject some applicants for non-number based reasons. Whenever we see an applicant that a lower-ranked school rejected and a higher-ranked school accepted, we assume YP, but the truth is that in at least some of the cases, the schools are just looking for different (non-numerical) things. It's hard for us to see that because we only see the numbers.


This is also a good response. Students who hate to accept that it's not purely a numbers game have little to offer beyond numbers. As a result, they look for someone to blame or want other perceivably like-minded individuals to join them in a rant about a corrupted admissions system that relies upon anything besides numbers.

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masochist
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Re: Do schools reject higher scores to admit lower scores?

Postby masochist » Sun Feb 19, 2012 1:40 am

ITT people who have their panties in a wad over YP misinterpret the OP's question

turkey wrote:Forgive me if this sounds stupid.

I guess what I mean is...if you see a lot of people getting accepted with scores that are over and above the 75% of LSAT/GPA....is there a point where they stop admitting these types and start taking those that fit their 25% LSAT/GPA.


This isn't a YP issue. There is no point at which a school has filled its quota of high scoring students and begins to take people around the 25th percentile to ... make the curve easier? Protect suboptimal medians? I don't even know why a school would do this. If a school is consistently accepting people with both criteria above the 75th percentile then it is a very good indication that they are not YPing. Variance from this trend is not attributable to having too many students above the 75th percentile already.

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hoos89
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Re: Do schools reject higher scores to admit lower scores?

Postby hoos89 » Sun Feb 19, 2012 1:49 am

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wallflower1987
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Re: Do schools reject higher scores to admit lower scores?

Postby wallflower1987 » Sun Feb 19, 2012 2:55 am

turkey wrote:Forgive me if this sounds stupid.

I guess what I mean is...if you see a lot of people getting accepted with scores that are over and above the 75% of LSAT/GPA....is there a point where they stop admitting these types and start taking those that fit their 25% LSAT/GPA. I ask because some of my Tier 2 schools seem to have accepted a lot of students with high numbers and my numbers fit with the upper levels. I assume I might get rejected and someone who has lower numbers than me gets in. Not a complaint, just wondering how it works.


Ok, I think I misread your question. No, what you are seeing is YP, but schools do not have a quota of highly qualified applicants. They simply do not accept everybody with great numbers if they know those people are unlikely to attend, which hurts their yield, which hurts their selectivity, which hurts their rankings. It is rampant, and it is a game. But no, they do not simply reach a quota; I think they just waitlist and wait to see if those applicants withdraw or provide LOCIs. They must count waitlisted applicants as rejections or else exclude them, idk which. Anyway, high numbers will not hurt you, but they may get you waitlisted because adcomms know when they're your safety school, and they don't want to unnecessarily hurt their numbers. But if you really want in, they will likely let you in with money if you are above their medians, even from the WL. From what I've seen, that is.

FinallyGoing
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Re: Do schools reject higher scores to admit lower scores?

Postby FinallyGoing » Sun Feb 19, 2012 2:59 am

PDaddy wrote::roll: This looks like one of those u-know-what threads in disguise, and the question is silly. If a school is accepting lower numbers in favor of higher numbers, it's for reasons that have nothing to do with it's established medians, 25%/75%, etc.

Other than that, yeah...this is a covert u-know-what thread...worded so that the subject is raised without OP having to raise it. :roll:


+1

ilovestandardtests
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Re: Do schools reject higher scores to admit lower scores?

Postby ilovestandardtests » Sun Feb 19, 2012 6:08 am

Going into a cycle schools have a pretty good idea of the type of students they will admit. If Georgetown gets a 176 3.8 applicant, they dont have much incentive to straight off admit that person unless they have written an essay about how much they absolutely love the school. It just doesn't make sense to admit that student when near certainly they will accept another offer from a more selective school. Do law schools base many of their decisions on what will increase their USNR rankings, yes. Is that ideal,surprising? No, especially given all the bullshit law schools spew out, but it is harmful in any real sense. No, not particularly.

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Smumps
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Re: Do schools reject higher scores to admit lower scores?

Postby Smumps » Sun Feb 19, 2012 10:59 pm

While I think it's ridiculous to say that schools accept people with their 25% in mind, I'd be curious to if they accepted "inferior" applicants for other reasons. Primarily, paying sticker. It's no secret that the scholarships some people get are paid for by the students going for full (or near-full price).

Taking GULC, just as an example. 168-172, 3.45-3.75 are their 25-75, respectively.

A random student above both medians might be 3.8/173 -- those are numbers that would have that individual in far higher ranked schools. My guess is a big reason to attend GULC is $$. And that might come from the 168/3.5 student that is paying full price.

Obviously hypothetical, and I have no idea how it actually breaks down. But someone is paying for the Hamilton/Mordecai/etc.

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Tiago Splitter
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Re: Do schools reject higher scores to admit lower scores?

Postby Tiago Splitter » Mon Feb 20, 2012 2:10 am

Smumps wrote:
Taking GULC, just as an example. 168-172, 3.45-3.75 are their 25-75, respectively.

A random student above both medians might be 3.8/173 -- those are numbers that would have that individual in far higher ranked schools. My guess is a big reason to attend GULC is $$. And that might come from the 168/3.5 student that is paying full price.


More like they'll take a 3.8/167 and a 3.0/171 and make them both pay sticker. The 168/3.5 has no chance.




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