Need Advise ASAP please

(Applications Advice, Letters of Recommendation . . . )
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sach1282
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Re: Need Advise ASAP please

Postby sach1282 » Fri Feb 17, 2012 4:26 pm

Was it PhilosopherKing that had the last "F*** the LSAT" thread?

Mal Reynolds
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Re: Need Advise ASAP please

Postby Mal Reynolds » Fri Feb 17, 2012 4:33 pm

Advice*

sailormoon
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Re: Need Advise ASAP please

Postby sailormoon » Fri Feb 17, 2012 9:57 pm

:)
Last edited by sailormoon on Fri May 04, 2012 10:07 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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observationalist
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Re: Need Advise ASAP please

Postby observationalist » Fri Feb 17, 2012 10:20 pm

sailormoon wrote:
ensign85 wrote:
sailormoon wrote:Recent update: just got in at UC Hastings (with a 156 LSAT) through the LEOP Program.


You think you're gonna attend?


Without the T14, yes I will go to Hastings. I am LGBT and the LGBT climate in this campus as well as the city of San Francisco is magnificent. The Transgender Law Center, where I intend to volunteer while in law school, is close to the campus.

In addition, I was very impressed with the person who talked to me on the phone. I asked how my 156 LSAT played and she said, "it is not the single decider of your admission. When everything else stands out in your application, we have sufficient reasons to believe it is not an indicator of your true qualities..." Then she explained the LEOP program and all the perks you get from being in it and I was sold. With that kind of academic support and my inherent discipline and passion for learning, I think I can finish in the top.

The median and 75th percentile salary of 2009 graduates from Hastings were 160K (similar to any T14) according to law school transparency. Only a T14 that is not in the conservative belt will change my mind at this point.



I have no idea if this is flame or not, and I apologize to everyone else on this thread for bumping this, but just to clarify: the 2009 data in the LST Data Clearinghouse does not show what you are saying it does. What is revealed in the data is that just 27% of the class were known to be making 90K or more while the rest were either 1) unemployed 2) making less than 90K or 3) did not report any starting salaries despite having jobs.

A reasonable interpretation of that data was that, during 2009 (which was the very best placement year on record and significantly better than 2010 and 2011:
- about a quarter of the class found jobs paying 90K or more
- about one in every seven graduates were either unemployed or unknown
- nearly a quarter of the class (88 students) were counted as finding a job (legal or not, we have no way of knowing) in the private sector but for some reason were not capable of reporting a salary. Possible explanations for such a low reporting rate vary, but most of those explanations reflect poorly on either the particular outcomes or the school itself.

To help people in your position make informed decisions, Hastings improved its level of disclosure for the Class of 2010, although it still doesn't distinguish between long term and short term jobs. The 2010 disclosures are documented in LST's Transparency Index (direct link here: --LinkRemoved-- )

From this data, we know that over 38% of the class of 2010 was either unemployed (seeking or not seeking), unknown, or only working part time nine months after graduation. (The school separates those categories out on their website so that optimistic applicants won't necessarily add up those figures, but if I'm wrong on this please let me know.) I encourage you to take the time to look over these data carefully before you make a decision.

Also, every law school should be finalizing its collection of the Class of 2011 data within the next couple of weeks. I strongly suggest you contact Hastings (and the other schools that have accepted you) and request to see that data before you make your decision. Relying on old data when trying to decide which school to attend now is dangerous, but misinterpreting that data even when it's presented to you in an easy-to-understand format is vaulting yourself into a whole new level of risk. G'luck.

sailormoon
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Re: Need Advise ASAP please

Postby sailormoon » Fri Feb 17, 2012 11:37 pm

:)
Last edited by sailormoon on Fri May 04, 2012 10:08 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Smumps
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Re: Need Advise ASAP please

Postby Smumps » Sat Feb 18, 2012 1:11 am

sailormoon wrote:mistake: I meant 2009 graduates who reported their salaries (known salaries) not 2009 graduates over-all. The quartiles were as follows: 25th - $90K; 50th - $160K; 75th - $160K. These quartiles were based on known salaries of 36.3% of the graduating class as of February 2010.

Although super $$$ is not a big motivation for me as I have a specific career plan, I only included that component earlier to justify why it is not a dumb decision to attend this school. It was a general consensus in the earlier posts that I should wait for another year, work on my LSAT and shoot for T14. I already re-took the LSAT last week and most of the law schools are waiting for my score. My argument is still if t14 does not take me this cycle, it is not a bad decision to attend Hastings especially with all the perks they are offering and the possibility of excelling in the class (which was asserted by another posting to be near to impossible). When someone asked me "are you going to attend?" I should have simply answered, why not.


You are all over the place. And honestly, if you were not looking for actual advice, why did you bother to post. Everyone in this thread is only trying to help your future endeavors. Going with the predictable "I'm a special snowflake" response is trite.

For most of us, future employment possibilities is the driving force behind the school we choose. If it's not yours, fantastic. Feel free to justify, however you want, the choices you make. If that is yours, however, then you are making the wrong decision. Read those employment statistics - only 36.3% reported. Why do you think 2/3rds didn't report - lazyness? Because they aren't making (close) to 160k.

And I'll repeat - everyone thinks they are going to transfer. Everyone. Do you have a possibility of success, of course. But going to Hastings (or anywhere), relying on that chance, is completely insane. Why not just take out a $200,000 loan and bet it on black. Better odds.

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20130312
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Re: Need Advise ASAP please

Postby 20130312 » Sat Feb 18, 2012 1:12 am

Advice*

HTH.

sailormoon
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Re: Need Advise ASAP please

Postby sailormoon » Sat Feb 18, 2012 3:19 am

Smumps wrote:
sailormoon wrote:mistake: I meant 2009 graduates who reported their salaries (known salaries) not 2009 graduates over-all. The quartiles were as follows: 25th - $90K; 50th - $160K; 75th - $160K. These quartiles were based on known salaries of 36.3% of the graduating class as of February 2010.

Although super $$$ is not a big motivation for me as I have a specific career plan, I only included that component earlier to justify why it is not a dumb decision to attend this school. It was a general consensus in the earlier posts that I should wait for another year, work on my LSAT and shoot for T14. I already re-took the LSAT last week and most of the law schools are waiting for my score. My argument is still if t14 does not take me this cycle, it is not a bad decision to attend Hastings especially with all the perks they are offering and the possibility of excelling in the class (which was asserted by another posting to be near to impossible). When someone asked me "are you going to attend?" I should have simply answered, why not.


You are all over the place. And honestly, if you were not looking for actual advice, why did you bother to post. Everyone in this thread is only trying to help your future endeavors. Going with the predictable "I'm a special snowflake" response is trite.

For most of us, future employment possibilities is the driving force behind the school we choose. If it's not yours, fantastic. Feel free to justify, however you want, the choices you make. If that is yours, however, then you are making the wrong decision. Read those employment statistics - only 36.3% reported. Why do you think 2/3rds didn't report - lazyness? Because they aren't making (close) to 160k.

And I'll repeat - everyone thinks they are going to transfer. Everyone. Do you have a possibility of success, of course. But going to Hastings (or anywhere), relying on that chance, is completely insane. Why not just take out a $200,000 loan and bet it on black. Better odds.


if you read through the thread, you can differentiate good faith advice and hostile/insulting advice. Hence, I defended my points. That's all. Predictable or not, my responses are not meant to impress you but to express what I truly think. I don't even know how the "snowflake" entered this conversation, a straw man that was built I suppose. I did not say I am definitely exceptional, I only say it is possible for everyone to excel if they put the right effort. Moreover, if everything I said were pointless and irrelevant, then why bother so much?

Nevertheless, this has been a good exercise. I will let you guys know what happens next and for the great advice, especially the good faith ones, thanks!

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bk1
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Re: Need Advise ASAP please

Postby bk1 » Sat Feb 18, 2012 3:28 am

sailormoon wrote:Only a T14 that is not in the conservative belt will change my mind at this point.


What is the "conservative belt" and why wouldn't you attend a T14 there?

pret
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Re: Need Advise ASAP please

Postby pret » Sat Feb 18, 2012 3:33 am

Might as well make the most of this thread.

c3pO4 wrote:
sailormoon wrote:i will let u guys know as soon as it is out; I am still sad about this whole LSAT experience though, how can this be possibly the single determinant of my future?


1L exams are even worse. You are in for a monster crash and burn if you continue on this path.

Are 1L exams worse than the LSAT in so far as creating confusing traps for test takers?

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Tom Joad
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Re: Need Advise ASAP please

Postby Tom Joad » Sat Feb 18, 2012 3:34 am

bk1 wrote:
sailormoon wrote:Only a T14 that is not in the conservative belt will change my mind at this point.


What is the "conservative belt" and why wouldn't you attend a T14 there?

I was thinking the same thing. The top 14 law schools in Alabama?

Also I kind of think a person is a wimp if they are not willing to live amongst people who believe in different ideas.

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bk1
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Re: Need Advise ASAP please

Postby bk1 » Sat Feb 18, 2012 3:35 am

pret wrote:Are 1L exams worse than the LSAT in so far as creating confusing traps for test takers?


They are worse in that they are curve you against a bunch of people who are as academically capable as you are and have put as much time in as you have.

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smaug_
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Re: Need Advise ASAP please

Postby smaug_ » Sat Feb 18, 2012 3:42 am

sailormoon wrote:I only say it is possible for everyone to excel if they put the right effort.


This is what is wrong with your argument. Are you claiming that most students at non-t14 schools don't put forth enough effort to succeed? At the vast majority of law schools, a majority of students will not succeed by the standards you put forth in your posts. So, it seems clear that it is not possible for everyone to excel if they put forth the right effort.

People who argue with you here are doing so because you're on the edge of making a bad decision. What you said was pretty irrelevant, but engaging you on this topic hopefully will cause you to think critically about the poor reasoning you're making in this thread.

HTH

nsbane
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Re: Need Advise ASAP please

Postby nsbane » Sat Feb 18, 2012 5:48 am

sailormoon wrote:I did not say I am definitely exceptional, I only say it is possible for everyone to excel if they put the right effort.


This statement shows you do not understand how law schools works. In fact, it is IMPOSSIBLE for everyone to excel in law school, even if they put in the effort. The class will be graded on a curve. That means from the outset, the professor knows he will give 10% of the class an A, 15% A-, 40% Bs, 35% Cs, more or less.

If everyone does their best, there are still 35% of the class who will get Cs.

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Re: Need Advise ASAP please

Postby lawlcat4179 » Sat Feb 18, 2012 6:21 am

nsbane wrote:
sailormoon wrote:I did not say I am definitely exceptional, I only say it is possible for everyone to excel if they put the right effort.


This statement shows you do not understand how law schools works. In fact, it is IMPOSSIBLE for everyone to excel in law school, even if they put in the effort. The class will be graded on a curve. That means from the outset, the professor knows he will give 10% of the class an A, 15% A-, 40% Bs, 35% Cs, more or less.

If everyone does their best, there are still 35% of the class who will get Cs.


LOL, I was going to say nearly the exact same thing. The funny thing about it is that I actually read a book recently by a law professor who feels that generally the people who do the best (gradewise) are the ones who are least confident in their abilities. But I'm sure OP will buck that trend as well. Ignorance must be nice.

sailormoon
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Re: Need Advise ASAP please

Postby sailormoon » Wed Feb 22, 2012 12:22 am

:)
Last edited by sailormoon on Fri May 04, 2012 10:08 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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20130312
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Re: Need Advise ASAP please

Postby 20130312 » Wed Feb 22, 2012 12:25 am

sailormoon wrote:Ooops, another mistake: I should have said "a person can excel" not "everyone," yey! I'm learning the nuances of the english language. I need it.

Nonetheless, the original argument does not exclude the scenario that everyone in the class did very well (effort and all, lol) and at the end of the class, everybody obtained a grade of 100%. Even with the imposition of the curve, everybody will just get an A because the curve will just be a rectangle and each percentile will correspond to the same number (=100%). Therefore, the original claim was logically sound and valid.

On a side note, on the issue of "self-doubt" and "critical thinking" and "poor reasoning," I found these interesting quotes:

"If only one of them is thinking critically, that one will be better at analyzing and evaluating facts and opinions, sources and claims, options and alternatives. The critical thinker will be a better problem-solver and better decision-maker...The goal of thinking critically is simple: to guarantee, as far as possible, that one’s beliefs and actions are justifiable and can withstand the test of rational analysis." --Todd Carroll, Becoming a Critical Thinker

"In each case, Socrates is depicted as confronting someone who claims to be an expert. Each expert is depicted as arrogant and self-righteous, without the slightest self-doubt. Socrates leads his antagonists not to the answer but to confusion. What Plato seemed to admire about Socrates was not only his method of cross-examination, but also his humble and skeptical attitude. That attitude was in stark contrast to the arrogance of the priest Euthyphro or the sophist Thrasymachus. Socrates meaning is clear. The arrogant do not examine their views. They are not worth imitating." --[on the Socratic Method], Todd Carroll, Becoming a Critical Thinker

"The law leaves much room for interpretation but very little room for self-doubt." --Legally Blonde

“Truth gains more . . . by the errors of one who, with due study and preparation, thinks for himself than by the true opinions of those who only hold them because they do not suffer themselves to think.” --John Stuart Mill


You're an idiot.

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vpintz
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Re: Need Advise ASAP please

Postby vpintz » Wed Feb 22, 2012 12:27 am

sailormoon wrote:Ooops, another mistake: I should have said "a person can excel" not "everyone," yey! I'm learning the nuances of the english language. I need it.

Nonetheless, the original argument does not exclude the scenario that everyone in the class did very well (effort and all, lol) and at the end of the class, everybody obtained a grade of 100%. Even with the imposition of the curve, everybody will just get an A because the curve will just be a rectangle and each percentile will correspond to the same number (=100%). Therefore, the original claim was logically sound and valid.

On a side note, on the issue of "self-doubt" and "critical thinking" and "poor reasoning," I found these interesting quotes:

"If only one of them is thinking critically, that one will be better at analyzing and evaluating facts and opinions, sources and claims, options and alternatives. The critical thinker will be a better problem-solver and better decision-maker...The goal of thinking critically is simple: to guarantee, as far as possible, that one’s beliefs and actions are justifiable and can withstand the test of rational analysis." --Todd Carroll, Becoming a Critical Thinker

"In each case, Socrates is depicted as confronting someone who claims to be an expert. Each expert is depicted as arrogant and self-righteous, without the slightest self-doubt. Socrates leads his antagonists not to the answer but to confusion. What Plato seemed to admire about Socrates was not only his method of cross-examination, but also his humble and skeptical attitude. That attitude was in stark contrast to the arrogance of the priest Euthyphro or the sophist Thrasymachus. Socrates meaning is clear. The arrogant do not examine their views. They are not worth imitating." --[on the Socratic Method], Todd Carroll, Becoming a Critical Thinker

"The law leaves much room for interpretation but very little room for self-doubt." --Legally Blonde

“Truth gains more . . . by the errors of one who, with due study and preparation, thinks for himself than by the true opinions of those who only hold them because they do not suffer themselves to think.” --John Stuart Mill

tl;dr

sailormoon
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Re: Need Advise ASAP please

Postby sailormoon » Wed Feb 22, 2012 12:27 am

8)

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20130312
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Re: Need Advise ASAP please

Postby 20130312 » Wed Feb 22, 2012 12:29 am

vpintz wrote:tl;dr


Just read up to where they start quoting things and you'll understand my poast.

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vpintz
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Re: Need Advise ASAP please

Postby vpintz » Wed Feb 22, 2012 12:31 am

InGoodFaith wrote:
vpintz wrote:tl;dr


Just read up to where they start quoting things and you'll understand my poast.

I think I felt the loss of a few IQ points.

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Crowing
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Re: Need Advise ASAP please

Postby Crowing » Wed Feb 22, 2012 12:32 am

sailormoon wrote:Ooops, another mistake: I should have said "a person can excel" not "everyone," yey! I'm learning the nuances of the english language. I need it.

Nonetheless, the original argument does not exclude the scenario that everyone in the class did very well (effort and all, lol) and at the end of the class, everybody obtained a grade of 100%. Even with the imposition of the curve, everybody will just get an A because the curve will just be a rectangle and each percentile will correspond to the same number (=100%). Therefore, the original claim was logically sound and valid.

On a side note, on the issue of "self-doubt" and "critical thinking" and "poor reasoning," I found these interesting quotes:

"If only one of them is thinking critically, that one will be better at analyzing and evaluating facts and opinions, sources and claims, options and alternatives. The critical thinker will be a better problem-solver and better decision-maker...The goal of thinking critically is simple: to guarantee, as far as possible, that one’s beliefs and actions are justifiable and can withstand the test of rational analysis." --Todd Carroll, Becoming a Critical Thinker

"In each case, Socrates is depicted as confronting someone who claims to be an expert. Each expert is depicted as arrogant and self-righteous, without the slightest self-doubt. Socrates leads his antagonists not to the answer but to confusion. What Plato seemed to admire about Socrates was not only his method of cross-examination, but also his humble and skeptical attitude. That attitude was in stark contrast to the arrogance of the priest Euthyphro or the sophist Thrasymachus. Socrates meaning is clear. The arrogant do not examine their views. They are not worth imitating." --[on the Socratic Method], Todd Carroll, Becoming a Critical Thinker

"The law leaves much room for interpretation but very little room for self-doubt." --Legally Blonde

“Truth gains more . . . by the errors of one who, with due study and preparation, thinks for himself than by the true opinions of those who only hold them because they do not suffer themselves to think.” --John Stuart Mill


what is this I don't even

lawlcat4179
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Re: Need Advise ASAP please

Postby lawlcat4179 » Wed Feb 22, 2012 12:35 am

InGoodFaith wrote:
sailormoon wrote:Ooops, another mistake: I should have said "a person can excel" not "everyone," yey! I'm learning the nuances of the english language. I need it.

Nonetheless, the original argument does not exclude the scenario that everyone in the class did very well (effort and all, lol) and at the end of the class, everybody obtained a grade of 100%. Even with the imposition of the curve, everybody will just get an A because the curve will just be a rectangle and each percentile will correspond to the same number (=100%). Therefore, the original claim was logically sound and valid.

On a side note, on the issue of "self-doubt" and "critical thinking" and "poor reasoning," I found these interesting quotes:

"If only one of them is thinking critically, that one will be better at analyzing and evaluating facts and opinions, sources and claims, options and alternatives. The critical thinker will be a better problem-solver and better decision-maker...The goal of thinking critically is simple: to guarantee, as far as possible, that one’s beliefs and actions are justifiable and can withstand the test of rational analysis." --Todd Carroll, Becoming a Critical Thinker

"In each case, Socrates is depicted as confronting someone who claims to be an expert. Each expert is depicted as arrogant and self-righteous, without the slightest self-doubt. Socrates leads his antagonists not to the answer but to confusion. What Plato seemed to admire about Socrates was not only his method of cross-examination, but also his humble and skeptical attitude. That attitude was in stark contrast to the arrogance of the priest Euthyphro or the sophist Thrasymachus. Socrates meaning is clear. The arrogant do not examine their views. They are not worth imitating." --[on the Socratic Method], Todd Carroll, Becoming a Critical Thinker

"The law leaves much room for interpretation but very little room for self-doubt." --Legally Blonde

“Truth gains more . . . by the errors of one who, with due study and preparation, thinks for himself than by the true opinions of those who only hold them because they do not suffer themselves to think.” --John Stuart Mill


You're an idiot.


Maybe we just don't appreciate her genius? Those quotes are pretty deep.

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masochist
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Re: Need Advise ASAP please

Postby masochist » Wed Feb 22, 2012 1:11 am

sailormoon wrote:Ooops, another mistake: I should have said "a person can excel" not "everyone," yey! I'm learning the nuances of the english language. I need it.

Nonetheless, the original argument does not exclude the scenario that everyone in the class did very well (effort and all, lol) and at the end of the class, everybody obtained a grade of 100%. Even with the imposition of the curve, everybody will just get an A because the curve will just be a rectangle and each percentile will correspond to the same number (=100%). Therefore, the original claim was logically sound and valid.


As I sit at the desk I have occupied for the last 8 hours trying to decipher the collection of Zen riddles my legal writing instructor laughingly refers to as formatting instructions, I am glad to hear that my classmates and I can all get a perfect score on our brief and an "A" in the course. All we have to do is write briefs that are so flawless that the professor can't find a single thing wrong with any of them despite the somewhat less-than-objective grading standards (25% content, %25 organization, %25 moon cycle, and %25 random number generator). Awesome. I should go to bed now since I no longer have to worry about the curve. Thanks sailormoon!

sailormoon
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Re: Need Advise ASAP please

Postby sailormoon » Wed Feb 22, 2012 12:08 pm

:)
Last edited by sailormoon on Fri May 04, 2012 10:09 pm, edited 1 time in total.




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