T14 top 50% vs. T50 top 25% vs. TT top 10% vs. TTT top 5%

(Applications Advice, Letters of Recommendation . . . )

Which is easiest to obtain?

Top 50% at T14
61
66%
Top 25% at T50
17
18%
Top 10% at T2
5
5%
Top 5% at TTT or TTTT
9
10%
 
Total votes: 92

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20130312
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Re: T14 top 50% vs. T50 top 25% vs. TT top 10% vs. TTT top 5%

Postby 20130312 » Thu Feb 09, 2012 12:26 pm

Who voted top 5%? Trollolol.

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bk1
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Re: T14 top 50% vs. T50 top 25% vs. TT top 10% vs. TTT top 5%

Postby bk1 » Thu Feb 09, 2012 12:27 pm

lawsearcher wrote:Ok, I generally agree with the concept of the law school exam test taker being unknowable. But aren't there likely to be more people who are successful at taking law school exams at the better schools. Things like learning how to take an adapt to a test or your professor seem like something intuitive and relatable to LSAT/GPA.

Otherwise, you're saying you could port the entire class from NYLS and replace them with Fordham students and the professors and employers would be none the wiser 3 years later.


You probably could (maybe profs would notice that the exam quality was higher, but then those students would be put onto the forced curve and employers would be none the wiser).

Yes the ability of the average test taker is likely higher at a T14, one of the things to note is that people who transfer from T2's to the T14 (who are generally in the top 10%) end up doing about as well in their new school as they did at their old. It's also important that you just don't know your ability at it. Maybe you would be below median whether you went to NYLS or Fordham since you suck at law school exams. Maybe not. You can't really know.

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cinephile
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Re: T14 top 50% vs. T50 top 25% vs. TT top 10% vs. TTT top 5%

Postby cinephile » Thu Feb 09, 2012 12:39 pm

If you feel more comfortable minimizing your costs and taking $ at a lower school, that's totally valid. But hopefully that lower school still places well in its region (like the state flagship school or whatever). Basically, be prepared to finish at median at the lower school, and if you'd be happy there, then go there.

lawsearcher
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Re: T14 top 50% vs. T50 top 25% vs. TT top 10% vs. TTT top 5%

Postby lawsearcher » Thu Feb 09, 2012 12:42 pm

bk1 wrote:
Yes the ability of the average test taker is likely higher at a T14, one of the things to note is that people who transfer from T2's to the T14 (who are generally in the top 10%) end up doing about as well in their new school as they did at their old. It's also important that you just don't know your ability at it. Maybe you would be below median whether you went to NYLS or Fordham since you suck at law school exams. Maybe not. You can't really know.


I don’t know if the transfer example is a good one. In fact, I think it falls in line that top 5-10% at a T1/T2 would succeed at a T14.

Yes, you don’t know. And since you don’t know, this question is relevant. You are going to put in roughly the same effort and have the same intelligence no matter what school it is. And since all of law school is one big curve you should attend the school whose curve best favors you. If there are significantly lower quality candidates at a lower school, it could be beneficial to you to take advantage of that opportunity.

My post is asking which type of school has the most favorable curves. My guess would be the school with the fewest people dropping down for scholarship money.

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Grizz
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Re: T14 top 50% vs. T50 top 25% vs. TT top 10% vs. TTT top 5%

Postby Grizz » Thu Feb 09, 2012 12:44 pm

lawsearcher wrote:I don’t know if the transfer example is a good one. In fact, I think it falls in line that top 5-10% at a T1/T2 would succeed at a T14.

Yes, you don’t know. And since you don’t know, this question is relevant. You are going to put in roughly the same effort and have the same intelligence no matter what school it is. And since all of law school is one big curve you should attend the school whose curve best favors you. If there are significantly lower quality candidates at a lower school, it could be beneficial to you to take advantage of that opportunity.

My post is asking which type of school has the most favorable curves. My guess would be the school with the fewest people dropping down for scholarship money.

The problem is that trying to quantify whatever effect all this has, if any, has so many variables that this is a worthless undertaking.

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bk1
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Re: T14 top 50% vs. T50 top 25% vs. TT top 10% vs. TTT top 5%

Postby bk1 » Thu Feb 09, 2012 12:46 pm

lawsearcher wrote:If there are significantly lower quality candidates at a lower school, it could be beneficial to you to take advantage of that opportunity.


Again, they are "significantly" lower quality candidates on only 2 metrics (LSAT/GPA) that account for roughly 20% of your grades. There are a bunch of factors where you have no idea whether the people are lower/higher/equal quality that comprise the other 80% of grades.

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Indifferent
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Re: T14 top 50% vs. T50 top 25% vs. TT top 10% vs. TTT top 5%

Postby Indifferent » Thu Feb 09, 2012 12:47 pm

Grizz wrote:
lawsearcher wrote:I don’t know if the transfer example is a good one. In fact, I think it falls in line that top 5-10% at a T1/T2 would succeed at a T14.

Yes, you don’t know. And since you don’t know, this question is relevant. You are going to put in roughly the same effort and have the same intelligence no matter what school it is. And since all of law school is one big curve you should attend the school whose curve best favors you. If there are significantly lower quality candidates at a lower school, it could be beneficial to you to take advantage of that opportunity.

My post is asking which type of school has the most favorable curves. My guess would be the school with the fewest people dropping down for scholarship money.

The problem is that trying to quantify whatever effect all this has, if any, has so many variables that this is a worthless undertaking.

Not to mention it's completely incalculable regardless, since you're essentially trying to predict that there aren't 15-30 people matriculating into any particular school in a given admissions period that aren't as capable at taking law school exams as you.

lawsearcher
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Re: T14 top 50% vs. T50 top 25% vs. TT top 10% vs. TTT top 5%

Postby lawsearcher » Thu Feb 09, 2012 1:06 pm

Indifferent wrote:Not to mention it's completely incalculable regardless, since you're essentially trying to predict that there aren't 15-30 people matriculating into any particular school in a given admissions period that aren't as capable at taking law school exams as you.


I think you're right here. The margin for error is just too small at the TTs and below to reliably anticipate each class' ability. Some classes of students might be extremely easy where others could compare closely to T1s.

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Indifferent
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Re: T14 top 50% vs. T50 top 25% vs. TT top 10% vs. TTT top 5%

Postby Indifferent » Thu Feb 09, 2012 1:14 pm

lawsearcher wrote:
Indifferent wrote:Not to mention it's completely incalculable regardless, since you're essentially trying to predict that there aren't 15-30 people matriculating into any particular school in a given admissions period that aren't as capable at taking law school exams as you.


I think you're right here. The margin for error is just too small at the TTs and below to reliably anticipate each class' ability. Some classes of students might be extremely easy where others could compare closely to T1s.

I'm not just talking about TTs.

Your examples were University of Washington and UGA; Wake was also mentioned. Those schools put, respectively, 33, 34, and 30 students into NLJ 250 firms last year. Source. Remember, though, that some of these students were students that either: had connections, had impressive work experience, or were stellar interviewers. So I wouldn't even venture to say those numbers are accurate from pure class rank standpoint.

lawsearcher
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Re: T14 top 50% vs. T50 top 25% vs. TT top 10% vs. TTT top 5%

Postby lawsearcher » Thu Feb 09, 2012 1:33 pm

Right, but that also includes people uninterested in biglaw or participating in clerships. Those are all small law schools. Low big law count is still relative to small class size.

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20130312
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Re: T14 top 50% vs. T50 top 25% vs. TT top 10% vs. TTT top 5%

Postby 20130312 » Thu Feb 09, 2012 1:35 pm

lawsearcher wrote:Right, but that also includes people uninterested in biglaw or participating in clerships. Those are all small law schools. Low big law count is still relative to small class size.


Then look at it as a percentage of the class. It's still smaller proportionally.

r6_philly
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Re: T14 top 50% vs. T50 top 25% vs. TT top 10% vs. TTT top 5%

Postby r6_philly » Thu Feb 09, 2012 11:57 pm

bk1 wrote:Yes the ability of the average test taker is likely higher at a T14, one of the things to note is that people who transfer from T2's to the T14 (who are generally in the top 10%) end up doing about as well in their new school as they did at their old.


It is then also one of things to note that upper level classes are not strictly curved, and people have a choice in selecting classes (with the aid of past grade distributions). So don't even compare new school grades with 1L grades. That's misleading.

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bk1
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Re: T14 top 50% vs. T50 top 25% vs. TT top 10% vs. TTT top 5%

Postby bk1 » Fri Feb 10, 2012 11:20 am

r6_philly wrote:
bk1 wrote:Yes the ability of the average test taker is likely higher at a T14, one of the things to note is that people who transfer from T2's to the T14 (who are generally in the top 10%) end up doing about as well in their new school as they did at their old.


It is then also one of things to note that upper level classes are not strictly curved, and people have a choice in selecting classes (with the aid of past grade distributions). So don't even compare new school grades with 1L grades. That's misleading.


I see your point, but I'm not sure I entirely agree (now that you've brought it up I'm wavering). Everyone has equal access to that information and I'm talking more about rank than about actual grades (meaning that they are still competing against classmates even if it isn't necessarily based on a curve). Though some classes may have similar formatted tests, you are right that upper level courses could definitely have a different test style. Also that 2L/3L's might take different approaches (one kid might be doing no extra-currics and taking easy classes to pad their GPA whereas another might be crammed with extra-currics, on LR, and taking Fed Courts).




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