I've done the math - it's hard to make good $$$ as a lawyer

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moneybagsphd
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Re: I've done the math - it's hard to make good $$$ as a lawyer

Postby moneybagsphd » Tue Feb 07, 2012 2:18 am

romothesavior wrote:
tempur_three wrote:While I might agree that a medical student is guaranteed a job after medical school, I'd say T-3 law grads have pretty good prospects of getting jobs and making great money, especially if they get a nice federal clerkship.

When you say T-3, you mean Harvard, Yale, and Stanford, correct? T3 around here generally means "Third Tier," whereas the top 3 law schools are called HYS. Some of the acronyms and phrases TLS uses can be kind of confusing, so I thought I'd clear that up.

No, I think he means TTT.

Curious1
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Re: I've done the math - it's hard to make good $$$ as a lawyer

Postby Curious1 » Tue Feb 07, 2012 2:21 am

stargazin wrote:
Not to mention that becoming a lawyer is a frigging joke these days.

my high school buddy with 2.4 gpa with 149 lsat got into 4 fucking law schools already, and he is telling everyone how he is a future lawyer about to make shit ton of money, etc.

this profession has become an absolute fucking joke, and anyone and his brother can get into some law school and even a retard can become a lawyer. in many other countries, lawyers are perceived to be the most elite jobs and most lawyers get good employment, due to supply vs demand control.

In good ole USA, half of law grads are unemployed with shit ton of debt, and still loads of retards are matriculating at shit law schools. Now, I think the moral solution here is for ABA to step in and forcibly close down half the law schools in the fucking country.

Fuck these clowns, and fuck these shitty law school dickheads that charge 60k a year for their shitty garbage degree. Not only are ABA and shitty law schools fucking over their students' future, but they are also tainting the prestige of this profession.

I'm embarrassed when I have to admit I'm a lawyer in the future when it won't be presitgious anymore


If you're saying that schools should be closed down in order to accomodate your need for prestige, then it's a slippery slope, no? Perhaps Harvard/Yale/Stanford law students will want to demand that the ABA limit the number of law schools to only those three, so that other lower ranked law schools will not "sully" their prestige or decrease their salaries by producing more lawyers. They could demand that state bars offer graduates of other law schools only a "junior lawyer" license, and if you have any kind of really important business, you must go to the HYS grads who will then charge you $100,000 an hour.


There are many additional reasons law schools should be closed down, the exact nuances of which have been discussed at length elsewhere.

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JoeFish
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Re: I've done the math - it's hard to make good $$$ as a lawyer

Postby JoeFish » Tue Feb 07, 2012 4:19 am

tempur_three wrote:As for the premed students going into law, I took the MCAT, wasn't that bad; the LSAT imho was more challenging. For the MCAT, you need the basic science coursework to prepare you for it. Much easier to achieve the 30 MCAT score than the 170+ LSAT score. Since I'm on the mcat vs lsat bit, I might as well dwell on the basic science vs humanities discussion too: writing solid arguments, good papers, takes a certain brainpower that monkeys, who memorize scientific facts, simply can't do. I'll never forget what one Yale professor said during a physics lecture: "Pigeons can do integration; humans can understand it," basically it's one thing to memorize a formula and apply it like a calculator, and another to understand what the hell all the formulas truly mean. I think humanities revolves around understanding concepts before applying them unlike a lot of science which consists of plugging and chugging. Of course there are exceptions to this.


This is kind of ridiculous. The thing is, to get a 30 on the MCAT, you need to have taken classes. You need to have studied and memorized. I grant that your argument that this might not be so valuable is not necessarily a bad one. But I think, as has been said over and over, comparing these and saying one is harder than the other is futile. I mean... for some people, the 170+ on the LSAT took literally zero time, whereas a good score on the MCATs would take tons and tons of studying. Similarly, there are people who could prep for the MCATs pretty quickly but find that they'd have trouble getting over 170 with literally unlimited prep.

Also, while the LSAT does involve written arguments and the like, it's not as though people show up to take the exam with their paintbrushes and easels. I mean... taking an argument, removing the actual terms to break it down to A--->(B&C), C--->D, ~D /: ~A doesn't seem too much different from having memorized a bunch of rules about how molecules interact.

Also, I don't think pigeons can do integration. Also notsubtle "I went to Yale" bragging?

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PDaddy
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Re: I've done the math - it's hard to make good $$$ as a lawyer

Postby PDaddy » Tue Feb 07, 2012 6:11 am

Liquox wrote:
surfer wrote:
The difference is that starting radiologist, anesthesiologist, or ER doc salaries can be $250 - 300k depending on the region. It would be difficult for any attorney to catch up with that. Even psychiatrists and pediatricians start at six figures.




funny story. have you tried being a pre-med? the mcat makes the lsat look like the sat.

i'm not surprised most of them eventually get paid more than most of us do. a failed pre-med can go to a T10 law school. a failed pre-law flips burgers at mcdonalds.


Well, THAT'S BS. The LSAT is the toughest test, but you're really comparing apples and oranges to a some degree. The MCAT is mostly a "knowledge-based" exam, whereas the GMAT is a hybrid of both skills (verbal/RC) and knowledge (QR such as permutations, geometry and trigonometry formulas and the like). Getting a good score on the MCAT means memorizing certain substantive information from the sciences. The LSAT is purely a skills-based exam, which means it tests a multitude of skills and talents that, for the most part, must be "acquired" by most applicants. Give me the MCAT any day, as long as I have ample time to study for it and have taken the requisite undergrad math and science courses.

You always know what's being thrown at you on the MCAT. This is true to a slightly lesser degree with the GMAT, which requires that you utilize many of the same skills learned for the LSAT. True, the LSAT recycles many of the same topics for RC and LR, but they are still thrown at you in a multitude of unpredictable ways. Logic games can be an absolute bitch when the LSAC chooses to make them so. You know what you're getting in the QR section of the GMAT.

I also reject out-of-hand the notion that Medical school candidates are innately more intelligent than are law students. Maybe they are generally harder workers and have more discipline - a notion to which I can lend some credence - but I don't buy the intelligence argument for a second.

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JDizzle2015
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Re: I've done the math - it's hard to make good $$$ as a lawyer

Postby JDizzle2015 » Tue Feb 07, 2012 12:22 pm

PDaddy wrote:(QR such as permutations, geometry and trigonometry formulas and the like).

:shock: Crap, so that's the secret.

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tempur_three
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Re: I've done the math - it's hard to make good $$$ as a lawyer

Postby tempur_three » Tue Feb 07, 2012 12:54 pm

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TheWeeIceMon
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Re: I've done the math - it's hard to make good $$$ as a lawyer

Postby TheWeeIceMon » Tue Feb 07, 2012 11:03 pm

tempur_three wrote:While I might agree that a medical student is guaranteed a job after medical school, I'd say T-3 law grads have pretty good prospects of getting jobs and making great money, especially if they get a nice federal clerkship.

I grew up in a family full of doctors, and they discourage people from entering medicine if there are better alternatives (like enrolling in a t-3 law school). If it's the average student we are talking about, then again, I agree, it's a safer bet financially to choose a horrible us medical school over cooley. But average might not mean 3.5-3.7ish GPA with a 30 MCAT (average med school matriculant stats). The solution to that is Caribbean/Foreign medical schools: the risk there is that you are not guaranteed a job, and you better have some financial support from parents/spouse because it'll take you some years--to make connections--to land that first residency.

I'm just going to throw some things out there for the hell of it as to why some of these doctors encourage attending a good law school over attending a medical school: 3 years of law = 200k debt (generous); 4 years of medicine > 200k debt. Good associate from good law school makes 150k/yr. Doctor out of med school aka resident makes 50k/yr. Generally for the lowest of specialities, a doctor needs about 3 yrs of residency. Unlike t-3 law school, where 160k law salaries are kind of standard, t-3 medical school cannot give all the "ROAD to happiness" residencies (ROAD=radiology, ophthalmology, anesthesiology, dermatology). So standard 3yr would give you options like ED, internist, family practice, etc. Those are 100-200k salaries. If you go private, it can get pretty ugly with malpractice insurance, so you might cut your salary by a nice chunk. Those 3 years it took to get to that salary do not translate very well to a greenhorn law graduate starting at 150k. And if you think law is hard on its associates, residents work 100+ hour weeks and can get pretty tired too. Exit options for medicine are slimmer than for law: I don't think we can analogize hospitals to law firms. I can list more if you'd like.

As for the premed students going into law, I took the MCAT, wasn't that bad; the LSAT imho was more challenging. For the MCAT, you need the basic science coursework to prepare you for it. Much easier to achieve the 30 MCAT score than the 170+ LSAT score. Since I'm on the mcat vs lsat bit, I might as well dwell on the basic science vs humanities discussion too: writing solid arguments, good papers, takes a certain brainpower that monkeys, who memorize scientific facts, simply can't do. I'll never forget what one Yale professor said during a physics lecture: "Pigeons can do integration; humans can understand it," basically it's one thing to memorize a formula and apply it like a calculator, and another to understand what the hell all the formulas truly mean. I think humanities revolves around understanding concepts before applying them unlike a lot of science which consists of plugging and chugging. Of course there are exceptions to this.

And to top off what I wrote into a rant: I prefer the typical lawyer over the typical doctor. There is something about how physicians employ condescension towards others that is in a completely different ballpark than how lawyers do it. The physician condescension hinges on something of a God-complex. (I really have a strong distaste for things related to the medical profession as you can tell.)


You do realize you're comparing an approximately 75th percentile MCAT score with a >90th percentile LSAT score right? Of course it will be easier to get the 30. Also, lol at the "monkeys memorizing facts" comment. The MCAT is far more than a memorize and regurgitate exam, especially considering 1/3 of the test has nothing to do with science (more if you count the writing sample, but no one does). You should know this since you took the MCAT. Either way, this discussion is pointless.

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tempur_three
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Re: I've done the math - it's hard to make good $$$ as a lawyer

Postby tempur_three » Wed Feb 08, 2012 12:29 am

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TheWeeIceMon
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Re: I've done the math - it's hard to make good $$$ as a lawyer

Postby TheWeeIceMon » Wed Feb 08, 2012 1:03 am

tempur_three wrote:
TheWeeIceMon wrote:
You do realize you're comparing an approximately 75th percentile MCAT score with a >90th percentile LSAT score right? Of course it will be easier to get the 30. Also, lol at the "monkeys memorizing facts" comment. The MCAT is far more than a memorize and regurgitate exam, especially considering 1/3 of the test has nothing to do with science (more if you count the writing sample, but no one does). You should know this since you took the MCAT. Either way, this discussion is pointless.


The 30 MCAT is between 75-80%, and that score will get you into many top medical schools and most medical schools. I don't think we can compare the numbers exactly here, meaning I don't think you can say that the 99.99% of the MCAT is equivalent to the 99.99% LSAT. I was saying that getting the MCAT score to get you into most medical schools is easier to achieve than a 170. If you got a 90% on the MCAT, you are very well primed for Harvard/Johns Hopkins/UPenn.

As far as the memorization goes, I stick by it. Let's say you got a perfect on physical sciences and biology sections (15+15=30) because of the nice formulae you memorized, then you could skip the reading comp section, which in itself is much easier than lsat reading comp, or say do poorly like a 2, then you still are at numbers that put you at a great advantage. Now, say you got a 12 12 and 6, you are at a 30. The 12s aren't too hard to get, and the 6 is pretty fucking easy even if you are a science geek who loathes reading. My own MCAT was pretty funny and similar, where my reading comp was the lowest, and I didn't study for the damn test. If I had studied for the MCAT like I had for the LSAT, I would have done phenomenal.

As for the writing sample, unlike law school admissions, it counts if you do poorly.


I see what you are saying, but I have to disagree with a couple points. To start, a 30 probably won't get you into a "top medical school" It can absolutely get you into a mid-tier or low-tier MD program, but the fact is a 30 is below the matriculant average for all schools (31.1). As far as the score scenarios you described go, I think you are missing a critical piece of information. Many medical schools have a hard cut line at about 8 for any section, meaning those verbal scores will get you auto-screened out.

I tend to think that some of these comparisons are thrown off by the general TLS belief that a 170+ LSAT score is necessary to get into schools worth going to in this economy, while the score threshold is much lower for medical schools. Anyway, I think we are getting a bit off topic here.

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tempur_three
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Re: I've done the math - it's hard to make good $$$ as a lawyer

Postby tempur_three » Wed Feb 08, 2012 1:19 am

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SilverE2
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Re: I've done the math - it's hard to make good $$$ as a lawyer

Postby SilverE2 » Wed Feb 08, 2012 2:17 am

tempur_three wrote:
TheWeeIceMon wrote:
I see what you are saying, but I have to disagree with a couple points. To start, a 30 probably won't get you into a "top medical school" It can absolutely get you into a mid-tier or low-tier MD program, but the fact is a 30 is below the matriculant average for all schools (31.1). As far as the score scenarios you described go, I think you are missing a critical piece of information. Many medical schools have a hard cut line at about 8 for any section, meaning those verbal scores will get you auto-screened out.

I tend to think that some of these comparisons are thrown off by the general TLS belief that a 170+ LSAT score is necessary to get into schools worth going to in this economy, while the score threshold is much lower for medical schools. Anyway, I think we are getting a bit off topic here.


OK, so each year it might go up, but when I took the MCAT a 30 would have gotten you into a T-14 equivalent (though ranking, for the most part, doesn't really matter in medical school).

I don't think I missed the critical piece of information, as I was saying that you can get a good score without the verbal. I didn't say you don't need a verbal, but simply trying to say that you can attain a good score without that section. (I agree and know that med schools don't like if your verbal is subpar like a 6 or even a 7.) I was mainly attacking the 1/3 part: getting an 8-9V is not hard, in fact it's the mean. So sticking to my 12s scenario, if you got an 8-9V, you'd be at a 32-33 which is pretty awesome. Even if you got 11s and an 8-9V you're good at the 30-31 line.

By TLS logic it does seem that one needs a 170+ to get into a law school worthy of one's enrollment. That's why I initially pointed out that getting that 30 is easier, that premeds are over-glorified, and the whole MCAT/Med School gig is easier that the TLS T-14 showdown.


Uh...how long ago did you take the MCAT? My girlfriend is applying to med school and you need a 35+ to get into a T20.

Curious1
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Re: I've done the math - it's hard to make good $$$ as a lawyer

Postby Curious1 » Wed Feb 08, 2012 2:21 am

Let's put it this way.

A 180 on the LSAT is less impressive than a 45 on the MCAT. How would you interpret that? My friend got a 43 and he told me (after much prodding) that maybe 8 people get that score a year, where as something like a 178 on the LSAT is relatively much less noteworthy.

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tempur_three
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Re: I've done the math - it's hard to make good $$$ as a lawyer

Postby tempur_three » Wed Feb 08, 2012 2:22 am

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tempur_three
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Re: I've done the math - it's hard to make good $$$ as a lawyer

Postby tempur_three » Wed Feb 08, 2012 2:48 am

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romothesavior
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Re: I've done the math - it's hard to make good $$$ as a lawyer

Postby romothesavior » Wed Feb 08, 2012 2:56 am

Let's put it this way: with a month of 3-hours-a-day studying, my pre-med friends could all easily 160+, some even 170+ on the LSAT. With one month of 8-hours-a-day studying, I probably wouldn't score above the 25th percentile on the MCAT.

The LSAT is a faster learn, more masterable, and the material is just far easier than the MCAT.

Also, if you think pre-med students and medical professionals are bad, wait til you meet law students and lawyers. For serious. Worst group of people on the planet.

thelogicalconstruct
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Re: I've done the math - it's hard to make good $$$ as a lawyer

Postby thelogicalconstruct » Tue Apr 17, 2012 6:45 pm

In some states doctors have a state mandated minimum wage http://www.mattbartus.com/changes-to-20 ... age-rates/

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lsatprepguy
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Re: I've done the math - it's hard to make good $$$ as a lawyer

Postby lsatprepguy » Wed Apr 18, 2012 10:11 am

I am four pages behind in this thread: Regardless, it bugged me that on the first page a $150,000 salary was cast in a negative light. Even with 200k in law school debt, you can live damn nice on 150k. With that said, carry on.

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Aberzombie1892
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Re: I've done the math - it's hard to make good $$$ as a lawyer

Postby Aberzombie1892 » Wed Apr 18, 2012 10:25 am

*Disclaimer - I have not read anything in this thread.

OP - Do you not realize that none of the wealthiest people in the US or world (500) made their money from practicing law? That fact alone should put you, and everyone else for that matter, on notice that the practice of law most likely not make you very wealthy (regardless of what school you attend). Don't get me wrong, you can do well with a law degree and make millions of dollars - but even at the highest paying firm, Wachtell, the average partner makes $4 million. While that is very successful by all standards, it pales i comparison as to what is made by entrepreneurs, consulting firms, banks (not just investment banks), and so on.

Law is a career choice, not a career accelerator (MBA) or a get rich quick scheme (lottery - mega millions anyone?).

SunshineMagic
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Re: I've done the math - it's hard to make good $$$ as a lawyer

Postby SunshineMagic » Wed Apr 18, 2012 7:57 pm

Aberzombie1892 wrote:*Disclaimer - I have not read anything in this thread.

OP - Do you not realize that none of the wealthiest people in the US or world (500) made their money from practicing law? That fact alone should put you, and everyone else for that matter, on notice that the practice of law most likely not make you very wealthy (regardless of what school you attend). Don't get me wrong, you can do well with a law degree and make millions of dollars - but even at the highest paying firm, Wachtell, the average partner makes $4 million. While that is very successful by all standards, it pales i comparison as to what is made by entrepreneurs, consulting firms, banks (not just investment banks), and so on.

Law is a career choice, not a career accelerator (MBA) or a get rich quick scheme (lottery - mega millions anyone?).


Not to discredit your point or say that it would ever happen to people on this board but Joe Jamail makes that list and the other people who got a law degree and didn't use it for law....Also just my observation but I would think the multimillion dollar verdict guys and mass tort bosses pale watchtell partners earnings....




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