I've done the math - it's hard to make good $$$ as a lawyer Forum

[Kabuo]

Not to mention that becoming a lawyer is a frigging joke these days.

my high school buddy with 2.4 gpa with 149 lsat got into 4 fucking law schools already, and he is telling everyone how he is a future lawyer about to make shit ton of money, etc.

this profession has become an absolute fucking joke, and anyone and his brother can get into some law school and even a retard can become a lawyer. in many other countries, lawyers are perceived to be the most elite jobs and most lawyers get good employment, due to supply vs demand control.

In good ole USA, half of law grads are unemployed with shit ton of debt, and still loads of retards are matriculating at shit law schools. Now, I think the moral solution here is for ABA to step in and forcibly close down half the law schools in the fucking country.

Fuck these clowns, and fuck these shitty law school dickheads that charge 60k a year for their shitty garbage degree. Not only are ABA and shitty law schools fucking over their students' future, but they are also tainting the prestige of this profession.

I'm embarrassed when I have to admit I'm a lawyer in the future when it won't be presitgious anymore

If you're saying that schools should be closed down in order to accomodate your need for prestige, then it's a slippery slope, no? Perhaps Harvard/Yale/Stanford law students will want to demand that the ABA limit the number of law schools to only those three, so that other lower ranked law schools will not "sully" their prestige or decrease their salaries by producing more lawyers. They could demand that state bars offer graduates of other law schools only a "junior lawyer" license, and if you have any kind of really important business, you must go to the HYS grads who will then charge you $100,000 an hour.

Amazingly, this thread is only getting stupider.

[johansantana21]

THANKS LOL I LEARNED A LOT FROM THIS INFORMATIVE AND NOVEL POST

[stargazin]

Not to mention that becoming a lawyer is a frigging joke these days.

my high school buddy with 2.4 gpa with 149 lsat got into 4 fucking law schools already, and he is telling everyone how he is a future lawyer about to make shit ton of money, etc.

this profession has become an absolute fucking joke, and anyone and his brother can get into some law school and even a retard can become a lawyer. in many other countries, lawyers are perceived to be the most elite jobs and most lawyers get good employment, due to supply vs demand control.

In good ole USA, half of law grads are unemployed with shit ton of debt, and still loads of retards are matriculating at shit law schools. Now, I think the moral solution here is for ABA to step in and forcibly close down half the law schools in the fucking country.

Fuck these clowns, and fuck these shitty law school dickheads that charge 60k a year for their shitty garbage degree. Not only are ABA and shitty law schools fucking over their students' future, but they are also tainting the prestige of this profession.

I'm embarrassed when I have to admit I'm a lawyer in the future when it won't be presitgious anymore

If you're saying that schools should be closed down in order to accomodate your need for prestige, then it's a slippery slope, no? Perhaps Harvard/Yale/Stanford law students will want to demand that the ABA limit the number of law schools to only those three, so that other lower ranked law schools will not "sully" their prestige or decrease their salaries by producing more lawyers. They could demand that state bars offer graduates of other law schools only a "junior lawyer" license, and if you have any kind of really important business, you must go to the HYS grads who will then charge you $100,000 an hour.

Amazingly, this thread is only getting stupider.

LMAO. Oops Did I offend you? I guess what I should have said in this hypothetical is that only Kabuo is brilliant enough to charge $100,000 an hour. Please think of us when you become president of the world.

[romothesavior]

LMAO. Oops Did I offend you? I guess what I should have said in this hypothetical is that only Kabuo is brilliant enough to charge $100,000 an hour. Please think of us when you become president of the world.

I don't think anyone was offended. I think people just thought it was nonsense.

[TatteredDignity]

Maybe I just haven't been paying attention, but it seems like the stupid people on TLS have been louder and prouder recently.

[stargazin]

It's especially sad when the stupid people randomly interject into other people's conversations in a desperate attempt to be accepted. More boring than sad actually. Well, kind of a toss-up.

I don't think anyone was offended. I think people just thought it was nonsense.

Rational response, how so?

[STLMizzou]

Rational response, how so?

[Kabuo]

LMAO. Oops Did I offend you? I guess what I should have said in this hypothetical is that only Kabuo is brilliant enough to charge $100,000 an hour. Please think of us when you become president of the world.

I just think it's a slippery slope.

[stargazin]

Rational response, how so?

[vpintz]

Maybe I just haven't been paying attention, but it seems like the stupid people on TLS have been louder and prouder recently.

[JDizzle2015]

Maybe I just haven't been paying attention, but it seems like the stupid people on TLS have been louder and prouder recently.

They've always been pretty loud and obnoxious. The "Add foe" button on certain users' profiles is fairly helpful.

Also,

I'm some one who is a couple years out and doing OK (federal clerkship)

-____-

[romothesavior]

It's especially sad when the stupid people randomly interject into other people's conversations in a desperate attempt to be accepted.

You may be onto something here.

[James Bond]

The 1% starts around 240k so actually 150k is only richer than about 98%. First world problems are rough.

The fabled "1%" in America is actually just below or just above $500k, depending on your source.

I heard from a very good source that it was around 300k just before Christmas. I was given a specific number and not something like "around 300k" so I'm inclined to believe it. Of course there are all sorts of ways to calculate income (individual, family, including alternative compensation, inflation-adjusted, etc.) so I'm sure there's a range of incomes that could or could not be considered the top 1%.

Both The Economist and the NY Times have it right below or right above $500K...

[Lil Kev]

Rational response, how so?

Mmmmm. Beer can chicken.

[Lil Kev]

Both The Economist and the NY Times have it right below or right above $500K...

It is definitely about 500K. 250K is something like the top 2.7% or something.

[thelogicalconstruct]

Not sure how most lawyers ever make more than 150k or so, even in later years; simply put: it is a service-driven profession and is not a career where one can really "create" wealth

Bigfed tops at 150k, no matter how long you're in, state govt is even less; and getting bigfed = unicorn

Most reputable law firms dont pay associates more than 100k starting out, and will burn you out after a few years if youre not partner, maybe youre making 140-150k? Contrary to popular belief, most people dont get BIGLAW.

Plaintiff's side stuff/shitlaw is mostly garbage. They may pay entry-level people anywhere from 30-70k. Making it big as a plaintiff's lawyer is, in my experience, tantamount to winning the lottery. You have to be a certain "kind" of personality to do well at that.

So where does that leave the average lawyer? I honestly would not be surprised if half of law graduates actually end of filtering out of the profession within 5 years of graduation. I'm some one who is a couple years out and doing OK (federal clerkship) but even i am wondering how much i really want to be a lawyer or whether this is going to afford me a financially stable life etc.

Making reference to a prior post this is old news. Every profession is facing similar realities (maybe for the exception of Tech where software engineers make anywhere between 80-150k thanks to Google and Facebook). I think lawyers are facing a new wall as the world is changing. It's time to think creatively. Aside from the small percentage of top graduates who immediately feed into high paying big law the rest are left to fend for themselves. Remember law school doesn't teach you how to create a career for yourself. That's up to you. Remember law can be a variety of things. For example, you can go into business development (heavy negotiation skills/contract). You can consult. You can create a start up of your own. Law is in everything as I am finding. It's a big reason why I want to go to law school. I can't seem to get away from it.

[Kikero]

The 1% starts around 240k so actually 150k is only richer than about 98%. First world problems are rough.

The fabled "1%" in America is actually just below or just above $500k, depending on your source.

I heard from a very good source that it was around 300k just before Christmas. I was given a specific number and not something like "around 300k" so I'm inclined to believe it. Of course there are all sorts of ways to calculate income (individual, family, including alternative compensation, inflation-adjusted, etc.) so I'm sure there's a range of incomes that could or could not be considered the top 1%.

Both The Economist and the NY Times have it right below or right above $500K...

Where did you find that? The IRS reports that the number was $380k in 2008 and $343k in 2009 (it's most recent report). The most recent article I found on The Economist's website is still using the $380k number from 2008 (http://www.economist.com/node/21543178) as does the NY Times' interactive map (http://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2012 ... t-map.html), but no where was I able to find a number around $500k.

[20130312]

Perhaps the top 1% of income is 380k and the top 1% of wealth is closer to 500k? Small distinction that makes a big difference.

[jared6180]

Perhaps the top 1% of income is 380k and the top 1% of wealth is closer to 500k? Small distinction that makes a big difference.

True, I have family whose wealth(net worth) is over $1mil, but it was accomplished over many years of making an income of about $80k and investing every spare penny.

[AreJay711]

Perhaps the top 1% of income is 380k and the top 1% of wealth is closer to 500k? Small distinction that makes a big difference.

No way top 1% of wealth is 500K.

True, I have family whose wealth(net worth) is over $1mil, but it was accomplished over many years of making an income of about $80k and investing every spare penny.

This is why making 100K a year does not mean you can never get ahead and build inter-generational wealth.

[Kikero]

Perhaps the top 1% of income is 380k and the top 1% of wealth is closer to 500k? Small distinction that makes a big difference.

I'm sure the top 1% of wealth is higher than that (although I'm not sure exactly what it is). However, the IRS numbers are Adjusted Gross Income, which could mean that 500k is the actual Gross Income (without the various deductions).

[Ohiobumpkin]

The top 1% of income earners earn roughly $500k a year. No distinction is made between wages and returns on investments. It is all regarded as income.

[tempur_three]

While I might agree that a medical student is guaranteed a job after medical school, I'd say T-3 law grads have pretty good prospects of getting jobs and making great money, especially if they get a nice federal clerkship.

I grew up in a family full of doctors, and they discourage people from entering medicine if there are better alternatives (like enrolling in a t-3 law school). If it's the average student we are talking about, then again, I agree, it's a safer bet financially to choose a horrible us medical school over cooley. But average might not mean 3.5-3.7ish GPA with a 30 MCAT (average med school matriculant stats). The solution to that is Caribbean/Foreign medical schools: the risk there is that you are not guaranteed a job, and you better have some financial support from parents/spouse because it'll take you some years--to make connections--to land that first residency.

I'm just going to throw some things out there for the hell of it as to why some of these doctors encourage attending a good law school over attending a medical school: 3 years of law = 200k debt (generous); 4 years of medicine > 200k debt. Good associate from good law school makes 150k/yr. Doctor out of med school aka resident makes 50k/yr. Generally for the lowest of specialities, a doctor needs about 3 yrs of residency. Unlike t-3 law school, where 160k law salaries are kind of standard, t-3 medical school cannot give all the "ROAD to happiness" residencies (ROAD=radiology, ophthalmology, anesthesiology, dermatology). So standard 3yr would give you options like ED, internist, family practice, etc. Those are 100-200k salaries. If you go private, it can get pretty ugly with malpractice insurance, so you might cut your salary by a nice chunk. Those 3 years it took to get to that salary do not translate very well to a greenhorn law graduate starting at 150k. And if you think law is hard on its associates, residents work 100+ hour weeks and can get pretty tired too. Exit options for medicine are slimmer than for law: I don't think we can analogize hospitals to law firms. I can list more if you'd like.

As for the premed students going into law, I took the MCAT, wasn't that bad; the LSAT imho was more challenging. For the MCAT, you need the basic science coursework to prepare you for it. Much easier to achieve the 30 MCAT score than the 170+ LSAT score. Since I'm on the mcat vs lsat bit, I might as well dwell on the basic science vs humanities discussion too: writing solid arguments, good papers, takes a certain brainpower that monkeys, who memorize scientific facts, simply can't do. I'll never forget what one Yale professor said during a physics lecture: "Pigeons can do integration; humans can understand it," basically it's one thing to memorize a formula and apply it like a calculator, and another to understand what the hell all the formulas truly mean. I think humanities revolves around understanding concepts before applying them unlike a lot of science which consists of plugging and chugging. Of course there are exceptions to this.

And to top off what I wrote into a rant: I prefer the typical lawyer over the typical doctor. There is something about how physicians employ condescension towards others that is in a completely different ballpark than how lawyers do it. The physician condescension hinges on something of a God-complex. (I really have a strong distaste for things related to the medical profession as you can tell.)

[romothesavior]

While I might agree that a medical student is guaranteed a job after medical school, I'd say T-3 law grads have pretty good prospects of getting jobs and making great money, especially if they get a nice federal clerkship.

When you say T-3, you mean Harvard, Yale, and Stanford, correct? T3 around here generally means "Third Tier," whereas the top 3 law schools are called HYS. Some of the acronyms and phrases TLS uses can be kind of confusing, so I thought I'd clear that up.

[tempur_three]

While I might agree that a medical student is guaranteed a job after medical school, I'd say T-3 law grads have pretty good prospects of getting jobs and making great money, especially if they get a nice federal clerkship.

When you say T-3, you mean Harvard, Yale, and Stanford, correct? T3 around here generally means "Third Tier," whereas the top 3 law schools are called HYS. Some of the acronyms and phrases TLS uses can be kind of confusing, so I thought I'd clear that up.

Yep, sorry. I'm still science shifting to law, haha.

Edited: one word "science".