Which is better? Being last in your class at T14 or #1 TTT?

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jcm043
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Which is better? Being last in your class at T14 or #1 TTT?

Postby jcm043 » Sat Jan 28, 2012 12:06 am

Which is better?

Being dead last at a T14 or being #1 at a TTT or TTTT???

In personal preference or for getting a job?

071816
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Re: Which is better? Being last in your class at T14 or #1 TTT?

Postby 071816 » Sat Jan 28, 2012 12:08 am

Depends on which T14 and which TTT

iamrobk
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Re: Which is better? Being last in your class at T14 or #1 TTT?

Postby iamrobk » Sat Jan 28, 2012 12:10 am

I'm gonna go with #1 TTT being better, but I'm just a 0L.

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Ludo!
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Re: Which is better? Being last in your class at T14 or #1 TTT?

Postby Ludo! » Sat Jan 28, 2012 12:17 am

If the T14 isn't HYS then I'd probably go with #1 at the TTT. I'd try to transfer though.

Real Madrid
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Re: Which is better? Being last in your class at T14 or #1 TTT?

Postby Real Madrid » Sat Jan 28, 2012 4:37 pm

In my humble 0L opinion, I think:

#1 at TTT > dead last at non-YHS T14,

but dead last at non-YHS T14 > #1 at TTTT.

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Re: Which is better? Being last in your class at T14 or #1 TTT?

Postby bk1 » Sat Jan 28, 2012 4:51 pm

Real Madrid wrote:In my humble 0L opinion, I think:

#1 at TTT > dead last at non-YHS T14,

but dead last at non-YHS T14 > #1 at TTTT.


This is arbitrary. There's no real difference between schools ranked 101-150 and 151-200, they are all shit.

Real Madrid
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Re: Which is better? Being last in your class at T14 or #1 TTT?

Postby Real Madrid » Sat Jan 28, 2012 4:55 pm

bk1 wrote:
Real Madrid wrote:In my humble 0L opinion, I think:

#1 at TTT > dead last at non-YHS T14,

but dead last at non-YHS T14 > #1 at TTTT.


This is arbitrary. There's no real difference between schools ranked 101-150 and 151-200, they are all shit.


Much of the common "wisdom" on TLS is arbitrary (T6, etc.). I just thought I'd add to it.

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Re: Which is better? Being last in your class at T14 or #1 TTT?

Postby cloudhidden » Sat Jan 28, 2012 7:51 pm

Real Madrid wrote:
bk1 wrote:
Real Madrid wrote:In my humble 0L opinion, I think:

#1 at TTT > dead last at non-YHS T14,

but dead last at non-YHS T14 > #1 at TTTT.


This is arbitrary. There's no real difference between schools ranked 101-150 and 151-200, they are all shit.


Much of the common "wisdom" on TLS is arbitrary (T6, etc.). I just thought I'd add to it.

You can add to that the assumption that everyone will graduate at the median in their class. That assumption negates the fact that people who go on are a self-selecting sample of students who probably have carefully considered reasons to attend law school, have an above average understanding of the obstacles they face, and thusly above average resourcefullness/ commitment leading to an above average shot at graduating above median.

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Re: Which is better? Being last in your class at T14 or #1 TTT?

Postby sunynp » Sat Jan 28, 2012 7:55 pm

cloudhidden wrote:
Real Madrid wrote:
bk1 wrote:
Real Madrid wrote:In my humble 0L opinion, I think:

#1 at TTT > dead last at non-YHS T14,

but dead last at non-YHS T14 > #1 at TTTT.


This is arbitrary. There's no real difference between schools ranked 101-150 and 151-200, they are all shit.


Much of the common "wisdom" on TLS is arbitrary (T6, etc.). I just thought I'd add to it.

You can add to that the assumption that everyone will graduate at the median in their class. That assumption negates the fact that people who go on are a self-selecting sample of students who probably have carefully considered reasons to attend law school, have an above average understanding of the obstacles they face, and thusly above average resourcefullness/ commitment leading to an above average shot at graduating above median.

Sadly resourcefulness/commitment and understanding the obstacles aren't graded. The only thing that matters is whether you can write an "above average" exam.

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IAFG
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Re: Which is better? Being last in your class at T14 or #1 TTT?

Postby IAFG » Sat Jan 28, 2012 7:56 pm

I would say it depends on the strength of the legal market that is local to the TTT.

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Errzii
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Re: Which is better? Being last in your class at T14 or #1 TTT?

Postby Errzii » Sat Jan 28, 2012 7:58 pm

cloudhidden wrote:
Real Madrid wrote:
bk1 wrote:
Real Madrid wrote:In my humble 0L opinion, I think:

#1 at TTT > dead last at non-YHS T14,

but dead last at non-YHS T14 > #1 at TTTT.


This is arbitrary. There's no real difference between schools ranked 101-150 and 151-200, they are all shit.


Much of the common "wisdom" on TLS is arbitrary (T6, etc.). I just thought I'd add to it.

You can add to that the assumption that everyone will graduate at the median in their class. That assumption negates the fact that people who go on are a self-selecting sample of students who probably have carefully considered reasons to attend law school, have an above average understanding of the obstacles they face, and thusly above average resourcefullness/ commitment leading to an above average shot at graduating above median.


aka "Fuck you TLS I'm a special snowflake"

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Re: Which is better? Being last in your class at T14 or #1 TTT?

Postby acrossthelake » Sat Jan 28, 2012 8:13 pm

IAFG wrote:I would say it depends on the strength of the legal market that is local to the TTT.


This and the surrounding competition in the area. (For example, a TTT in NYC is more boned than most).

Also last in the class at Yale probably still goes on to a fair bit of success.

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IAFG
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Re: Which is better? Being last in your class at T14 or #1 TTT?

Postby IAFG » Sat Jan 28, 2012 8:23 pm

acrossthelake wrote:
IAFG wrote:I would say it depends on the strength of the legal market that is local to the TTT.


This and the surrounding competition in the area. (For example, a TTT in NYC is more boned than most).

Also last in the class at Yale probably still goes on to a fair bit of success.

Last in the class at a lower T14 is still going to be able to make a plausible play for any market he can talk into interviewing him: all the T14s have some national reach. The first in his class at St. Louis has St. Louis, and not much else.

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cloudhidden
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Re: Which is better? Being last in your class at T14 or #1 TTT?

Postby cloudhidden » Sat Jan 28, 2012 9:19 pm

Much of the common "wisdom" on TLS is arbitrary (T6, etc.). I just thought I'd add to it.[/quote]
You can add to that the assumption that everyone will graduate at the median in their class. That assumption negates the fact that people who go on are a self-selecting sample of students who probably have carefully considered reasons to attend law school, have an above average understanding of the obstacles they face, and thusly above average resourcefullness/ commitment leading to an above average shot at graduating above median.[/quote]

aka "Fuck you TLS I'm a special snowflake"[/quote]

Assuming that you will graduate top 10% warrants the "special snowflake" designation. But I will take my understanding of statistics over your misapplication of a popular culture reference any day of the week. Now, I have learned much from this forum over the past few months, but have noticed a few dyed in the wool prejudices that hardly ever get challenged. Do you not think that someone who takes their decision very seriously, researches the factors that may contribute toward success in their impending endeavor, and consults many sources of information, at least fractionally stands a better chance of placing above median than someone who doesn't? Add to that the statistical correlation (I believe .49 if I remember correctly) between gpa/lsat scores and grades in law school, that for example places someone with numbers above both 75th percentiles at a school with around a 50% chance of graduating top 25%, not a 50% chance of graduating at the median. Those two factors present a powerful argument against the "you will graduate at median because you were raised to think you would be a movie star and we know that's not happening" argument. Like I said I love TLS and I think the consensus is spot on that a lot of people need to re-evaluate their expectations, but come on, 50%??? You mind as well consider a professional a special snowflake occupation because well over 50% of the population won't have an opportunity to do that either.

09042014
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Re: Which is better? Being last in your class at T14 or #1 TTT?

Postby 09042014 » Sat Jan 28, 2012 9:24 pm

acrossthelake wrote:
IAFG wrote:I would say it depends on the strength of the legal market that is local to the TTT.


This and the surrounding competition in the area. (For example, a TTT in NYC is more boned than most).

Also last in the class at Yale probably still goes on to a fair bit of success.


I'd bet a lot of money that #1 NYLS does better in NYC than last at Yale (though I think it's impossible to be last at Yale, it seems worst you can do is bottom third, tied with the rest of bottom third).

NYC TTT's are boned in general, but if you have knockout grades, there are literally hundreds of offices that you qualify for. If I could pick a TTT to be number 1 at I'd pick a NYC TTT.

But TTT in say Mississippi, well they've got a few firms. Better nail those 3-4 interviews you get, or you are fucked.

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Re: Which is better? Being last in your class at T14 or #1 TTT?

Postby 5ky » Sat Jan 28, 2012 9:26 pm

Desert Fox wrote:
acrossthelake wrote:
IAFG wrote:I would say it depends on the strength of the legal market that is local to the TTT.


This and the surrounding competition in the area. (For example, a TTT in NYC is more boned than most).

Also last in the class at Yale probably still goes on to a fair bit of success.


I'd bet a lot of money that #1 NYLS does better in NYC than last at Yale (though I think it's impossible to be last at Yale, it seems worst you can do is bottom third, tied with the rest of bottom third).

NYC TTT's are boned in general, but if you have knockout grades, there are literally hundreds of offices that you qualify for. If I could pick a TTT to be number 1 at I'd pick a NYC TTT.

But TTT in say Mississippi, well they've got a few firms. Better nail those 3-4 interviews you get, or you are fucked.


Agreed with the bolded.

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Re: Which is better? Being last in your class at T14 or #1 TTT?

Postby sunynp » Sat Jan 28, 2012 9:36 pm

The point about median is that a person shouldn't go to any school they wouldn't be happy graduating from at median. A lot of people think they will be top 10% and transfer to a better school or that they will be top 10% and get a biglaw job from a lower ranked school. This is a risky calculation when you add in the cost of law school. Assuming median aids in making a financially viable choice.
I'm honestly not sure what you're trying to say.

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Re: Which is better? Being last in your class at T14 or #1 TTT?

Postby cloudhidden » Sat Jan 28, 2012 9:55 pm

I'm trying to say that the expectation that you will graduate at median is an oversimplification from a statistical standpoint. Expecting to graduate top 10% may be an even more egregious assumption, but how about placing some confidence in oneself and expecting to land somewhere in between? There are aforementioned factors that make a TLS user unrepresentative of the average law school student plus the quasi-predictive correlation between numbers and law school performance. This digression may not apply so much to a TTT where you may very well need to land in the top 10%, but for T100 schools you at least have a decent shot at getting a job with above median grades (and factoring in massive scholarships that might not be a bad idea unless one only wanted biglaw.)

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Re: Which is better? Being last in your class at T14 or #1 TTT?

Postby 09042014 » Sat Jan 28, 2012 10:04 pm

sunynp wrote:The point about median is that a person shouldn't go to any school they wouldn't be happy graduating from at median. A lot of people think they will be top 10% and transfer to a better school or that they will be top 10% and get a biglaw job from a lower ranked school. This is a risky calculation when you add in the cost of law school. Assuming median aids in making a financially viable choice.
I'm honestly not sure what you're trying to say.


Plenty of people gun, work smart and still end up below median. I wouldn't go to a school you don't have good exit options from at bottom third.

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Re: Which is better? Being last in your class at T14 or #1 TTT?

Postby cloudhidden » Sat Jan 28, 2012 10:23 pm

Desert Fox wrote:
sunynp wrote:The point about median is that a person shouldn't go to any school they wouldn't be happy graduating from at median. A lot of people think they will be top 10% and transfer to a better school or that they will be top 10% and get a biglaw job from a lower ranked school. This is a risky calculation when you add in the cost of law school. Assuming median aids in making a financially viable choice.
I'm honestly not sure what you're trying to say.


Plenty of people gun, work smart and still end up below median. I wouldn't go to a school you don't have good exit options from at bottom third.


But what does "plenty" mean? A hand-full, a few dozen, 50% of them? My point is that the two factors I had described make someone more likely to finish above median. I know that even median isn't good enough at a lot of schools, I just feel like someone ought to make an argument that the bar needs to be raised on the 50% assumption. Why not tell someone contemplating a massive scholarship offer from a lower T1 or T2 that the new expectation becomes top 25% from a statistical standpoint (undergraduate/ lsat performance, granted their numbers are above both 75th percentiles)? That makes the choice between one of those schools on massive scholarship and paying sticker or near sticker at higher T1 (where one can expect to graduate closer to the median and therefore not receive enough of the employment boost that would justify the extra $100k), a very compelling one. Give me T-14 at median and you probably have that employment boost.

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Re: Which is better? Being last in your class at T14 or #1 TTT?

Postby cloudhidden » Sat Jan 28, 2012 11:00 pm

But someone on full scholly at T1/T2 also has exit options, unencumbered by burdensome debt. Granted, the chances that that option includes a career in the law significantly diminishes the further down the rankings. However, looked at in that totally risk-averse, bottom third predicament, the options are closely matched considering relative freedom from debt. There's a slew of factors that influence the likelihood that someone graduates on either side of the median, not least amongst them the established correlation between gpa/ lsat and law school performance, and one's placement in that regard relative to their incoming classmates. Assuming median in class is a broad-based generalization like the platitude "T-14 or scholly," that doesn't take account of the subtleties and nuances involved. As lawyers, why not appreciate those nuances and challenge some of that prevailing logic, as some of that logic overly simplifies the choice between scholly or higher ranked school.

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Re: Which is better? Being last in your class at T14 or #1 TTT?

Postby sunynp » Sat Jan 28, 2012 11:52 pm

cloudhidden wrote:But someone on full scholly at T1/T2 also has exit options, unencumbered by burdensome debt. Granted, the chances that that option includes a career in the law significantly diminishes the further down the rankings. However, looked at in that totally risk-averse, bottom third predicament, the options are closely matched considering relative freedom from debt. There's a slew of factors that influence the likelihood that someone graduates on either side of the median, not least amongst them the established correlation between gpa/ lsat and law school performance, and one's placement in that regard relative to their incoming classmates. Assuming median in class is a broad-based generalization like the platitude "T-14 or scholly," that doesn't take account of the subtleties and nuances involved. As lawyers, why not appreciate those nuances and challenge some of that prevailing logic, as some of that logic overly simplifies the choice between scholly or higher ranked school.

I started to write a couple of different posts responding to this, but, whatever, dude, enjoy your opinion. I still don't know what you want to accomplish, but I am simply going to disagree and move on. Other people can respond more eloquently than I, and, honestly, I am not interested in arguing about this.

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Re: Which is better? Being last in your class at T14 or #1 TTT?

Postby 09042014 » Sun Jan 29, 2012 12:19 am

cloudhidden wrote:
Desert Fox wrote:
sunynp wrote:The point about median is that a person shouldn't go to any school they wouldn't be happy graduating from at median. A lot of people think they will be top 10% and transfer to a better school or that they will be top 10% and get a biglaw job from a lower ranked school. This is a risky calculation when you add in the cost of law school. Assuming median aids in making a financially viable choice.
I'm honestly not sure what you're trying to say.


Plenty of people gun, work smart and still end up below median. I wouldn't go to a school you don't have good exit options from at bottom third.


But what does "plenty" mean? A hand-full, a few dozen, 50% of them? My point is that the two factors I had described make someone more likely to finish above median. I know that even median isn't good enough at a lot of schools, I just feel like someone ought to make an argument that the bar needs to be raised on the 50% assumption. Why not tell someone contemplating a massive scholarship offer from a lower T1 or T2 that the new expectation becomes top 25% from a statistical standpoint (undergraduate/ lsat performance, granted their numbers are above both 75th percentiles)? That makes the choice between one of those schools on massive scholarship and paying sticker or near sticker at higher T1 (where one can expect to graduate closer to the median and therefore not receive enough of the employment boost that would justify the extra $100k), a very compelling one. Give me T-14 at median and you probably have that employment boost.


For one, the difference between sticker and full ride at most schools is pretty damn small. Well within the margin of error of the LSAT. You aren't doing the probability calculations correctly.

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Re: Which is better? Being last in your class at T14 or #1 TTT?

Postby r6_philly » Tue Jan 31, 2012 12:22 am

Right out of school: depends on what you want to do.

10/20 years out: T14 is T14, GPA/class rank gets forgotten.

I'd transfer. So then, if I can transfer from the TTT to a T14, then TTT. If I can't, then T14.

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Re: Which is better? Being last in your class at T14 or #1 TTT?

Postby PDaddy » Tue Jan 31, 2012 3:45 am

jcm043 wrote:Which is better?

Being dead last at a T14 or being #1 at a TTT or TTTT???

In personal preference or for getting a job?


Being listed #1 at any school is always going to be better than being listed last at a T14, let alone last at any other school. The 1L curricula across schools is 80% the same, so there is a good amount of uniformity between schools insofar as first year courses are concerned. That's why the top schools feel comfortable basing transfer admission on rank and not so much the school transferred from. That alone is telling.

Stanford, Yale and Berkeley, and Chicago don't really grade, per se, so I don't know how they can rank students, either. The diploma mills are some of the most competitive schools because of the hunger, experience and greed of the students. In a way, I am equally or more impressed with a #1 at a school like Cooley than I am with a #1 at a T14. Even though they curve, the requirements to stay respectable on the curve are probably less stringent at a T14 because of something called "cognitive dissonance", which occurs because profs expect their students to be smart and thus treat them accordingly. Also, the people are cutthroat at TTT's. They still rip pages out of books.

As far as post-2L and 3L, you should also keep in mind that the employers have their preferences; some are by alma mater, some by region, some by rank, and some by specialty programs, and some by pre-law work experience. If a managing or hiring partner is from Chapman, Chapman grads get a better shake, all else being held equal. If you're working in San francisco, many of the firms are going to prefer grads with science and technology backgrounds, as well as pre-law work experience. If a firm has recruited from a school before (with a good amount of success), the firm will keep returning to that well.

The idea that someone can be at the bottom of a T14 and compete with the #1 TTT student is ludicrous. There's no way a responsible partner would want to hire what amounts to a potentially lazy summer intern or graduate - regardless of what school he comes from. Bottom ranks, for better or worse, rightly or wrongly, suggest that something is lacking. In reality that may not be true, but it may be relatively true. As a hiring partner I'd be even more leery because I would expect T14 students to be spoiled and self-entitled. I could live with those traits in a T14 overachiever or TTT diamond-in-the-rough who continues to be productive, but they would turn me off in a T14 bottom-feeder.

I guess this is a long-winded way of saying that it's generally better to be #1 no matter what, but there are other factors.
Last edited by PDaddy on Wed Feb 01, 2012 5:45 am, edited 5 times in total.




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