Rutgers-Camden to be absorbed by Rowan University?

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mrtoren
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Re: RU-Camden Law student battles Governor - see link

Postby mrtoren » Fri Mar 09, 2012 3:57 am

Fletcher Reed wrote:Thankfully people like this are fighting for what's right. The merge is coming and the outcome will be absolutely detrimental to RU-Camden Law School (regardless of whether or not "current students and incoming 1L's get to have Rutgers Law on their diplomas"). The negative impact from the merge will far exceed the issue of wording on a diploma.

Check out this article: Google: "former navy seal rutgers student"

In regards to the things BostonNJ mentioned:

"...HUGE day for Rutgers Camden....2012/2013 class will get 'Rutgers Law' degree..." "the law school will not be affected for incoming students..."

In reality, this is a ploy by the school to provide a false sense of security to the potential incoming class and it's a way to temporarily pacify the current law students. Anyone who truly believes this will not affect them is foolish. As I mentioned above, the issues this will cause are WAY BEYOND that of WORDING ON A PIECE OF PAPER.

For those of you not in the tri-state area, this merger is like Thomas M. Cooley Law absorbing Yale Law. If you think the idea of Cooley taking Yale over is crazy, you can understand how those (including your potential future employers) will view the merge. If Rowan takes over in five months, for example, where will you say you attend? "I go to Rowan but don't worry my diploma will state Rutgers"? What do you even say?

"...Christie is already starting to back down from it!" "...this merger seems very very very unlikely to go through..."

Certainly NOT TRUE. He made it loud and clear today that it WILL happen.

It would be like Cooley taking over Yale? Terrible analogy, but I understand the larger point of a lesser known school taken over a better known school. You also overestimate Christie's ability to pass this merger. He is already backing away from his executive order proclamation after finding out it would probably be illegal. The legislature is a gamble because lawmakers could pick and choose which components to implement. Do you really think a hot-button issue like this merger would be at the top of their agenda? They'll avoid it like the plague. The Rutgers board also has a say in matter because the Camden campus was folded into Rutgers before it went public. At any rate, any action will likely be met with a formidable legal challenge that will surely last several years.

But please, continue your doomsday prophecies.

Those seriously interested in RU-C, contact me.

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Postby Fletcher Reed » Fri Mar 09, 2012 11:22 am

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Re: Rutgers-Camden to be absorbed by Rowan University?

Postby mrtoren » Fri Mar 09, 2012 11:44 am

Fletcher Reed wrote:I did seriously contact you for advice but when I got my Feb. score back I knew my options had opened up and rather than completely fool myself, I opened my mind up to the reality of the name change.

Before even looking at your profile I could tell you are not from the tri-state area. Those truly in touch with the Rutgers name brand understand the gravity of the problem here and you don't. You seem to be detached from it, but you shouldn't be. There are so many people going absolutely wild over this FOR A REASON. Those from Illinois, for example, would not understand.
YES, it is very much like Cooley taking over Yale. People are obsessed in this area with Rutgers and the alumni base is huge and dedicated. They love the name. They respect it. It's an obsession I've never understood. There are license plates, stickers on cars, tattoos, and Rutgers clothing donned by alumni who've graduated decades ago who are still proud and who still donate, many of which are preeminent members throughout the local law community.

Imagine the uproar that would take place of Cooley tried to absorb Yale, just based on the name change alone and not considering any other issue it would cause. Now conduct some research and see how people are reacting to this and ask yourself why? Why are people freaking out? Find the answers to those questions. Just because you chose to attend this school, don't be blind to what's going on.

I know all about the Rutgers brand the and the weight it carries out East. However, you're panicking right now. You need to take a deep breath and calm down. Alumni may turn their back on the school, but they won't turn their back on the current Rutgers students. The students are pawns in all of this and firms and alumni recognize that. In the highly disputed event that Rowan actually takes over, employers wouldn't cut ties immediately.

Just because you believe the merger will go through, doesn't make it a reality. Just because the embattled governor of New Jersey says it will go through, doesn't mean it will. This is far from over. Stop the fear mongering and go enjoy which ever school offered you the cuddliest security blanket.

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Postby Fletcher Reed » Fri Mar 09, 2012 12:08 pm

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Re: Rutgers-Camden to be absorbed by Rowan University?

Postby 20130312 » Fri Mar 09, 2012 12:37 pm

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Re: Rutgers-Camden to be absorbed by Rowan University?

Postby mrtoren » Fri Mar 09, 2012 4:39 pm

Fletcher Reed wrote:The governor in NJ is aggressive and highly influential. He served as the chief federal law enforcement officer in NJ. His office tried and convicted 130 public officials. His is not intimidated. He’s flipped his state upside down and has done things no other governor would dare do. He gets what he wants. He's taken action, battled, and won against the largest union in NJ which happens to be a teacher’s union. There were practically riots incited all along the way, but none of it mattered nor did it influence him or change the inevitable outcome. If you research, you will see some of the other things he's accomplished in NJ, things that people said would never, ever happen.

By the way, you did not instill tranquility within me when you acknowledged that "Alumni may turn their back on the school..." and that "...employers wouldn't cut ties IMMEDIATELY." These are precisely two of the reasons that people should panic.

I'm not afraid to admit I got caught up in the pandemonium as well. Just like you, I thought fire would rain from the skies if this merger went through. But now I'm not so sure it will even happen. Christie can and has changed a lot of traditionally respected positions since taking office and it was legal to do so; however, he can't change something that's outside of his discretion. There a lot of powerful alumni putting up a strong resistance to this and the flurry of legal concerns batters his position everyday. He's fighting to keep his word, but I don't know if he has the standing to make it happen. Outside of a small number of Democratic leaders in Norcross' pocket, the legislature doesn't really want to deal with this. They'll shelve it or compromise on it. The Rutgers board still has recourse as well. This merger is on a road full of roadblocks. To assume it will clear each and everyone of them is questionable.

Sit tight and let's see what happens.
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Postby Fletcher Reed » Fri Mar 09, 2012 4:39 pm

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Re: Rutgers-Camden to be absorbed by Rowan University?

Postby mrtoren » Fri Mar 09, 2012 4:41 pm

Fletcher Reed wrote:For those of you who were accepted to both campuses, it would be very foolish to attend Camden over Rutgers for many reasons. If you'd like further insight, PM me and I can connect you with a few people on here who've PMed me in regards to choosing Newark over Camden after much consideration.

Ignore this troll. Don't fall for the ignorance and fear mongering that is being perpetrated.

Sit tight and wait it out. Go where you want to practice.

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Re: Rutgers-Camden to be absorbed by Rowan University?

Postby DCMB » Sun Mar 11, 2012 5:41 pm

mrtoren wrote:
Fletcher Reed wrote:For those of you who were accepted to both campuses, it would be very foolish to attend Camden over Rutgers for many reasons. If you'd like further insight, PM me and I can connect you with a few people on here who've PMed me in regards to choosing Newark over Camden after much consideration.

Ignore this troll. Don't fall for the ignorance and fear mongering that is being perpetrated.

Sit tight and wait it out. Go where you want to practice.


Regardless of if this merger goes through or not, it can’t be good for the law school in Camden. There are many ifs surrounding it currently that may serve to scare away potential students and/or faculty. There has been a lot of talk here about the Rutgers name versus Rowan. Some have said there really isn’t much of a difference as no one outside of New Jersey cares. I can’t really agree with that. I am originally from Boston and knew of Rutgers while I was there. Not only did I know the name, but I knew it to be associated with a good reputation. I have lived in Philadelphia for the past six years and didn’t really know Rowan existed until this controversy. So far, I haven’t really come across anyone who has had anything really good to say about the school. Maybe I’m just not coming across the right people…

The merger may not go through and even if it does it will probably take a long time to finalize. This probably has very little impact on current students or the incoming class, but if the school does lose the Rutgers name potential students or potential employers of those with a Rowan degree may not view it in the same light. Brand recognition is an important concept. There is a good reason companies spend a lot of money on it.

So, yes, for those deciding where to become members of the next class it probably will be fine. Your only concern is that your school may not exist in the next few years. If that doesn’t worry you, don’t let this mess stop you from attending Camden. As for the Newark versus Camden thing and going where you want to practice, Newark and Camden are different markets. If this whole thing does cause some concern, there are some other options right across the river…

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Re: Rutgers-Camden to be absorbed by Rowan University?

Postby mrtoren » Sun Mar 11, 2012 6:51 pm

DCMB wrote:Regardless of if this merger goes through or not, it can’t be good for the law school in Camden. There are many ifs surrounding it currently that may serve to scare away potential students and/or faculty. There has been a lot of talk here about the Rutgers name versus Rowan. Some have said there really isn’t much of a difference as no one outside of New Jersey cares. I can’t really agree with that. I am originally from Boston and knew of Rutgers while I was there. Not only did I know the name, but I knew it to be associated with a good reputation. I have lived in Philadelphia for the past six years and didn’t really know Rowan existed until this controversy. So far, I haven’t really come across anyone who has had anything really good to say about the school. Maybe I’m just not coming across the right people…

The merger may not go through and even if it does it will probably take a long time to finalize. This probably has very little impact on current students or the incoming class, but if the school does lose the Rutgers name potential students or potential employers of those with a Rowan degree may not view it in the same light. Brand recognition is an important concept. There is a good reason companies spend a lot of money on it.

So, yes, for those deciding where to become members of the next class it probably will be fine. Your only concern is that your school may not exist in the next few years. If that doesn’t worry you, don’t let this mess stop you from attending Camden. As for the Newark versus Camden thing and going where you want to practice, Newark and Camden are different markets. If this whole thing does cause some concern, there are some other options right across the river…

Excellent post. I agree.

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Re: Rutgers-Camden to be absorbed by Rowan University?

Postby oleosmirf » Wed Mar 14, 2012 1:39 pm

i definitely agree with you here although my issue is now the rankings. Had Rutgers dropped to lets say 88, that would be perfectly reasonable but Camden had the single largest drop out of any school, expect for maybe Villanova and that was because they lied to the ABA.

What happens if Rutgers drops outside of the top 100 next year? Is that not cause for concern even if the merger never happens? There is the distinct possibility that those who thought they were attending the 84th ranked school are now ranked 110...

They've already lowered admission standards for this cycle so who is to say that won't continue?

DCMB wrote:
mrtoren wrote:
Fletcher Reed wrote:For those of you who were accepted to both campuses, it would be very foolish to attend Camden over Rutgers for many reasons. If you'd like further insight, PM me and I can connect you with a few people on here who've PMed me in regards to choosing Newark over Camden after much consideration.

Ignore this troll. Don't fall for the ignorance and fear mongering that is being perpetrated.

Sit tight and wait it out. Go where you want to practice.


Regardless of if this merger goes through or not, it can’t be good for the law school in Camden. There are many ifs surrounding it currently that may serve to scare away potential students and/or faculty. There has been a lot of talk here about the Rutgers name versus Rowan. Some have said there really isn’t much of a difference as no one outside of New Jersey cares. I can’t really agree with that. I am originally from Boston and knew of Rutgers while I was there. Not only did I know the name, but I knew it to be associated with a good reputation. I have lived in Philadelphia for the past six years and didn’t really know Rowan existed until this controversy. So far, I haven’t really come across anyone who has had anything really good to say about the school. Maybe I’m just not coming across the right people…

The merger may not go through and even if it does it will probably take a long time to finalize. This probably has very little impact on current students or the incoming class, but if the school does lose the Rutgers name potential students or potential employers of those with a Rowan degree may not view it in the same light. Brand recognition is an important concept. There is a good reason companies spend a lot of money on it.

So, yes, for those deciding where to become members of the next class it probably will be fine. Your only concern is that your school may not exist in the next few years. If that doesn’t worry you, don’t let this mess stop you from attending Camden. As for the Newark versus Camden thing and going where you want to practice, Newark and Camden are different markets. If this whole thing does cause some concern, there are some other options right across the river…

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Re: Rutgers-Camden to be absorbed by Rowan University?

Postby r6_philly » Wed Mar 14, 2012 8:50 pm

oleosmirf wrote:What happens if Rutgers drops outside of the top 100 next year? Is that not cause for concern even if the merger never happens? There is the distinct possibility that those who thought they were attending the 84th ranked school are now ranked 110...

They've already lowered admission standards for this cycle so who is to say that won't continue?

...

As for the Newark versus Camden thing and going where you want to practice, Newark and Camden are different markets. If this whole thing does cause some concern, there are some other options right across the river…
[/quote]

It doesn't really matter whether RC is 84 or 110 in a sense. It would still have to compete with Penn/Temple/Nova. Actually it's probably a better time to attend RC because Nova took a nose dive, so you actually moved up a spot in the local market.

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Postby Fletcher Reed » Thu Mar 15, 2012 3:36 pm

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Re: Rutgers-Camden to be absorbed by Rowan University?

Postby kaiser » Thu Mar 15, 2012 3:45 pm

I feel really bad for those who are attending RU Camden right now. Rowan is a barely-known school, and in a field where name-familiarity is everything, taking away the well-known Rutgers name is killer. So now students are caught in the middle of this battle while the school continues to tumble in the rankings, and could very well be a 3rd tier school with an unknown name before they graduate. Thats not what they signed up for, and its a shame they are being put through all this.

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Re: Rutgers-Rowan Merger Proposal Has Faulty SATs

Postby mrtoren » Thu Mar 15, 2012 3:46 pm

Fletcher Reed wrote:http://www.businessweek.com/news/2012-03-15/rowan-excluded-some-sat-scores-in-fact-sheet-on-rutgers-merger

--LinkRemoved--

For those who don't want to read - Rowan added 100 points to their average SAT scores by omitting disadvantaged students who enrolled under a special program. They then printed that figure on a handout given to political and business leaders in support of the merger. When the disparity is corrected, Rutgers-Camden actually came out 18 SAT points over Rowan.

More and more news sites are picking this story up by the hour. If the consequences weren't so serious, the number of gaffes and blatant lies that Christie and Rowan are making would be comical.

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Re: Rutgers-Camden to be absorbed by Rowan University?

Postby kaiser » Thu Mar 15, 2012 3:48 pm

So Rowan is not just borderline unknown, but blatantly manipulating data so that they can reap the prize of getting RU Camden connected to them. God, I feel so bad for the students there, I really do.

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Postby Fletcher Reed » Thu Mar 15, 2012 3:54 pm

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Re: Rutgers-Camden to be absorbed by Rowan University?

Postby kaiser » Thu Mar 15, 2012 4:02 pm

Fletcher Reed wrote:
kaiser wrote:I feel really bad for those who are attending RU Camden right now. Rowan is a barely-known school, and in a field where name-familiarity is everything, taking away the well-known Rutgers name is killer. So now students are caught in the middle of this battle while the school continues to tumble in the rankings, and could very well be a 3rd tier school with an unknown name before they graduate. Thats not what they signed up for, and its a shame they are being put through all this.


I agree 100%. Are you from the area? It seems like people in the general area (PA, NJ, NY) seem to understand how much the Rutgers brand is respected and how little Rowan is. I gave the example once of how crazy it would be for Yale to be taken over by Pace (or something along those lines) in order to show people outside the area what's really taking place in the eyes of the local community.
The information in the article highlights the poor quality of Rowan, it supports why the merger would be a bad idea, and it also gives hope to those of us against the merger because maybe this new information will help in stopping this atrocity.


Yes, I grew up with Rutgers right in my backyard. When you finished high school in my town, it was expected that you go down the road to Rutgers, and leaving NJ was obviously the exception. We all went to Rutgers football games during high school, and got Grease Trucks sandwiches. Most NJ people I know have heard the name "Rowan", but there isn't any real familiarity. I actually visited a few years ago when considering colleges, but couldn't tell you a single distinguishing thing about it. Everyone around here views Rutgers as a consistently solid place that is synonymous with NJ. Taking that would away would be awful for the current RU Camden students.

Camden isn't exactly a safe and wonderful place. But the fact that Rutgers puts their name on the school indicates to students that it is still worth going to an otherwise unsavory place for school. It is a seal of quality in NJ, and they would be so stupid to take that away, in an industry where school recognition is so key.

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Re: Rutgers-Camden to be absorbed by Rowan University?

Postby mrtoren » Thu Mar 15, 2012 4:14 pm

kaiser wrote:So Rowan is not just borderline unknown, but blatantly manipulating data so that they can reap the prize of getting RU Camden connected to them. God, I feel so bad for the students there, I really do.

Its a terrible situation from any angle. Rowan's new medical school, opening this fall, is the only one in the nation that isn't connected to a research institution. By absorbing Rutgers-Camden, Rowan would acquire that coveted research status and add needed science professors to their payroll. Unfortunately, it doesn't end there. In funding the construction of the medical school over the past couple of years, Rowan has taken on a staggering amount of debt. In fact, their credit status was downgraded by one of the leading credit rating agencies a year or two ago and I believe they're set to be downgraded again in the coming months. Rutgers-Camden is a cash cow that would reduce Rowan's debt burden and help them pay down the capital they expended in creating the medical school. Comparing the two universities, Rutgers-Camden carries something like $22,000 in debt per student while Rowan is over $51,000 in debt per student.

Staying connected to Rutgers is the obvious choice, but they abuse Camden too. I can't the find the original article anymore, but New Brunswick takes something like 45% of the revenue Camden students pay to attend the school. New Brunswick is also planning to spend more money on one of their new buildings in Piscataway than they give the entire Camden campus. Even the New Brunswick sports programs get more money than the Camden campus. Rutgers-Camden is nothing more than a revenue source to these two institutions. In a perfect world, Camden would gets its own Governing Board and the right to spend the money it raises. Unfortunately, in reality, that's never going to happen so I'll take Rutgers' abuse simply for the name recognition and prestige it provides in return.

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Postby Fletcher Reed » Thu Mar 15, 2012 6:02 pm

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Re: Rutgers-Camden to be absorbed by Rowan University?

Postby mrtoren » Thu Mar 15, 2012 6:38 pm

Fletcher Reed wrote:Does anyone know if the Class of 2015 has been guaranteed a Rutgers diploma in the event the merger takes place? By guaranteed, I mean has anyone received this in writing? I’m not interested in what someone “heard”, or what someone “hopes”; I’m asking for verifiable, fact-based information only please.

About a month ago, the Rutgers Board unanimously passed a resolution that all current and incoming students would receive the Rutgers name on their degree. Chris Christie reiterated that during his fiasco of a town meeting a week or so ago.

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Postby Fletcher Reed » Thu Mar 15, 2012 8:12 pm

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Re: Rutgers-Camden to be absorbed by Rowan University?

Postby mrtoren » Thu Mar 15, 2012 9:04 pm

Fletcher Reed wrote:Thank you, but I’m trying to find it in writing. I heard the same rumor from a “current student” who anonymously posted information about the alleged decision.

Anyone know where this resolution or the Governor's promise can actually be found?

http://medicaleducation.rutgers.edu/faq ... -jersey#As a current student

"At its February 15, 2012, meeting, the Rutgers Board of Governors passed a resolution affirming its intention that all students currently enrolled at Rutgers–Camden, as well as those enrolled by the start of the academic year 2012–13, will be able to complete and receive their degrees from Rutgers–Camden."

http://www.philly.com/philly/news/new_j ... match.html

"Hundreds of people were watching as Christie said current Rutgers-Camden students would be able to graduate with Rutgers degrees."

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Postby Fletcher Reed » Thu Mar 15, 2012 9:34 pm

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Re: Rutgers-Camden to be absorbed by Rowan University?

Postby mrtoren » Thu Mar 15, 2012 10:11 pm

Fletcher Reed wrote:Thanks for researching that.

The devil is in the details though.

The governor stated, “Current Rutgers-Camden students would be able to graduate with Rutgers degrees.” The Class of 2015 does not consist of current students. There’s significant gray area and uncertainty in his unofficial statement.

Regarding the resolution: It just states that President McCormick wanted the Board of Governors to publicly state its "intention" to provide “to the extent possible” that students enrolled by the start of the 2012-2013 year have the opportunity to graduate with a Rutgers degree. In other words, they think it would be a great idea. They are not in any shape or form guaranteeing it.

There's way too much leeway in terms like “strong intention” and “to the extent possible”. The Rutgers degree is absolutely not 100% guarenteed.

I'd like to get some input from others who are considering attending.

I don't think people are as evil, vicious, and conniving as you apparently do. This is a time-honored tradition; the incoming class was admitted to Rutgers University-Camden. Next year's class, should a complete merger go through in the coming weeks and months, would not receive the same benefit because they would be applying to Rowan. Rowan and the Governor would have nothing to lose by printing the Rutgers name on the next couple of classes' diplomas. However, the negative publicity that would result from going against their word would significantly hurt them. Again, should the merger go through, Rowan will have a lot of healing to do to mend the current rifts. Pettiness over the name on students' diplomas will not be on their shortlist.

KEEP IN MIND - This merger is far from decided. In fact, based on the Governor's and Rowan's recent gaffes, its heading toward Rutgers' favor.




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