Rutgers-Camden to be absorbed by Rowan University?

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mrtoren
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Re: Rutgers-Camden to be absorbed by Rowan University?

Postby mrtoren » Sun Feb 05, 2012 3:52 pm

Looking for more opinions.

Rowan is supposedly willing to grant current and incoming students the Rutgers name on their degree if they choose to take it. As a big fan of Philadelphia, would it be stupid to attend in light of the inevitable PR and legal battle that is about to be unleashed? Will employment actually suffer?

Is this a case of lost identity, or a case of a law school on the decline?


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Re: Rutgers-Camden to be absorbed by Rowan University?

Postby mrtoren » Mon Feb 06, 2012 8:09 pm

drmguy wrote:http://www.philly.com/philly/news/breaking/20120206_Rutgers_chief_decries_merger_plan.html

"Given our choice at Rutgers, if we could pick and choose among the recommendations . . . we would not want to turn over the Rutgers-Camden campus to Rowan University" - Rutgers President.

However, he carefully chose his words. If they're given the option to pick and choose which recommendations to enact, they'll keep Rutgers-Camden. If they're forced to choose between all or nothing, a new medical school or the Camden branch...which do you think they'll choose?

Easy.

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Re: Rutgers-Camden to be absorbed by Rowan University?

Postby drmguy » Mon Feb 06, 2012 8:13 pm

mrtoren wrote:
drmguy wrote:http://www.philly.com/philly/news/breaking/20120206_Rutgers_chief_decries_merger_plan.html

"Given our choice at Rutgers, if we could pick and choose among the recommendations . . . we would not want to turn over the Rutgers-Camden campus to Rowan University" - Rutgers President.

However, he carefully chose his words. If they're given the option to pick and choose which recommendations to enact, they'll keep Rutgers-Camden. If they're forced to choose between all or nothing, a new medical school or the Camden branch...which do you think they'll choose?

Easy.


Also-
http://savejersey.com/2012/02/save-rutg ... e-stopped/

tmgarvey
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Re: Rutgers-Camden to be absorbed by Rowan University?

Postby tmgarvey » Mon Feb 06, 2012 10:02 pm

1984 alum here, I just got home from a forum at the Campus Center with the Chancellor of Rutgers-Camden, Wendell Pritchett. It was an open forum for students, alumni, faculty, and members of the public to ask questions and to voice their opposition to any merger (I have not heard one person speak in favor of it, other than a few politicians and those at UMDNJ and Rowan with a vested interest).

As a member of the Business faculty pointed out, if there is a "plan" for how this will somehow be a beneficial arrangement (as our dear Governor claims), no one outside the cabal that cooked this up has been privy to any of the details.

I came to Rutgers-Camden Law from Colorado (where I attended C.U. undergrad), and I applied, in large part, because of the Rutgers reputation and because of its many clinical programs (the clinic part is even better now than it was then). It was a bit of culture shock to go into Camden for the first time, but it became like home for the three years I was in school there. When I interviewed for jobs in Colorado my third year, the Rutgers name was a definite asset--some interviewers viewed it as they would an Ivy League school. (I doubt whether anyone would have recognized the name "Rowan" out west.) After three years working for the N.J. Attorney General's Office, I became an assistant prosecutor in Camden, a job from which I just retired after 25 years of public service. Nearly all of my legal career has been in Camden. I even moved back to Colorado in the late 90s, and I came back to Camden, to the Prosecutor's Office, after only a year and a half. During my 22 years with the Prosecutor's Office, I believe that my colleagues and I (several of whom went to Rutgers-Camden Law) did a lot of good for the people of that city and the surrounding suburbs. Other Rutgers-Camden graduates became Public Defenders in Camden, and still others were on the bench, both State and Federal.

One of the most moving moments in tonight's forum was when an older lady who lives in one of the blight-stricken high-rises near the campus spoke on behalf of herself and her neighbors, many of whom are elderly or disabled, to say thank you to the students who give their time to help them with landlord-tenant disputes, provide tax assistance, and other forms of legal and practical help. She said she intends to rally other citizens of Camden to oppose the merger, which she sees as highly detrimental to the school that has given so much to their community.

This is far from over. I have never been very active in alumni affairs, but this has a lot of us riled up and united. I didn't "enjoy" law school, but I got a very good legal education there, one that I appreciate more with time and experience. It is a very fine law school, and I hope it continues to be that way for you folks as you embark on your legal education.

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Re: Rutgers-Camden to be absorbed by Rowan University?

Postby 2LT_CPG » Mon Feb 06, 2012 10:15 pm

tmgarvey wrote:1984 alum here, I just got home from a forum at the Campus Center with the Chancellor of Rutgers-Camden, Wendell Pritchett. It was an open forum for students, alumni, faculty, and members of the public to ask questions and to voice their opposition to any merger (I have not heard one person speak in favor of it, other than a few politicians and those at UMDNJ and Rowan with a vested interest).

As a member of the Business faculty pointed out, if there is a "plan" for how this will somehow be a beneficial arrangement (as our dear Governor claims), no one outside the cabal that cooked this up has been privy to any of the details.

I came to Rutgers-Camden Law from Colorado (where I attended C.U. undergrad), and I applied, in large part, because of the Rutgers reputation and because of its many clinical programs (the clinic part is even better now than it was then). It was a bit of culture shock to go into Camden for the first time, but it became like home for the three years I was in school there. When I interviewed for jobs in Colorado my third year, the Rutgers name was a definite asset--some interviewers viewed it as they would an Ivy League school. (I doubt whether anyone would have recognized the name "Rowan" out west.) After three years working for the N.J. Attorney General's Office, I became an assistant prosecutor in Camden, a job from which I just retired after 25 years of public service. Nearly all of my legal career has been in Camden. I even moved back to Colorado in the late 90s, and I came back to Camden, to the Prosecutor's Office, after only a year and a half. During my 22 years with the Prosecutor's Office, I believe that my colleagues and I (several of whom went to Rutgers-Camden Law) did a lot of good for the people of that city and the surrounding suburbs. Other Rutgers-Camden graduates became Public Defenders in Camden, and still others were on the bench, both State and Federal.

One of the most moving moments in tonight's forum was when an older lady who lives in one of the blight-stricken high-rises near the campus spoke on behalf of herself and her neighbors, many of whom are elderly or disabled, to say thank you to the students who give their time to help them with landlord-tenant disputes, provide tax assistance, and other forms of legal and practical help. She said she intends to rally other citizens of Camden to oppose the merger, which she sees as highly detrimental to the school that has given so much to their community.

This is far from over. I have never been very active in alumni affairs, but this has a lot of us riled up and united. I didn't "enjoy" law school, but I got a very good legal education there, one that I appreciate more with time and experience. It is a very fine law school, and I hope it continues to be that way for you folks as you embark on your legal education.

^^^
That's a very well articulated view that sums up how a bunch of RU-C grads have around here. I'll continue to be interested in this because of my application in at RU-N.

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Re: Rutgers-Camden to be absorbed by Rowan University?

Postby mrtoren » Tue Feb 07, 2012 12:46 am

tmgarvey wrote:1984 alum here, I just got home from a forum at the Campus Center with the Chancellor of Rutgers-Camden, Wendell Pritchett. It was an open forum for students, alumni, faculty, and members of the public to ask questions and to voice their opposition to any merger (I have not heard one person speak in favor of it, other than a few politicians and those at UMDNJ and Rowan with a vested interest).

As a member of the Business faculty pointed out, if there is a "plan" for how this will somehow be a beneficial arrangement (as our dear Governor claims), no one outside the cabal that cooked this up has been privy to any of the details.

I came to Rutgers-Camden Law from Colorado (where I attended C.U. undergrad), and I applied, in large part, because of the Rutgers reputation and because of its many clinical programs (the clinic part is even better now than it was then). It was a bit of culture shock to go into Camden for the first time, but it became like home for the three years I was in school there. When I interviewed for jobs in Colorado my third year, the Rutgers name was a definite asset--some interviewers viewed it as they would an Ivy League school. (I doubt whether anyone would have recognized the name "Rowan" out west.) After three years working for the N.J. Attorney General's Office, I became an assistant prosecutor in Camden, a job from which I just retired after 25 years of public service. Nearly all of my legal career has been in Camden. I even moved back to Colorado in the late 90s, and I came back to Camden, to the Prosecutor's Office, after only a year and a half. During my 22 years with the Prosecutor's Office, I believe that my colleagues and I (several of whom went to Rutgers-Camden Law) did a lot of good for the people of that city and the surrounding suburbs. Other Rutgers-Camden graduates became Public Defenders in Camden, and still others were on the bench, both State and Federal.

One of the most moving moments in tonight's forum was when an older lady who lives in one of the blight-stricken high-rises near the campus spoke on behalf of herself and her neighbors, many of whom are elderly or disabled, to say thank you to the students who give their time to help them with landlord-tenant disputes, provide tax assistance, and other forms of legal and practical help. She said she intends to rally other citizens of Camden to oppose the merger, which she sees as highly detrimental to the school that has given so much to their community.

This is far from over. I have never been very active in alumni affairs, but this has a lot of us riled up and united. I didn't "enjoy" law school, but I got a very good legal education there, one that I appreciate more with time and experience. It is a very fine law school, and I hope it continues to be that way for you folks as you embark on your legal education.

I appreciate the time and energy you're putting into keeping this fine institution intact. If you were looking to attend law school today, what would you do in light of the current situation? I'm going back and forth between Camden and Newark. Camden, as it stands, is my number one choice.

What would you do if the school is confirmed to be merging before the seat deposit deadline?

What would you do if the school is still up for grabs when the deadline arrives?

EDIT - "State Sen. Paul Sarlo, D-36th of Wood-Ridge, asked Houshmand if it would be a deal breaker if Rutgers-Camden’s School of Law was not included in the merger. Houshmand replied that it would not, but Cooper University Hospital President and CEO John P. Sheridan Jr. said New Jersey is odd in having two law schools with the same name separated by 70 miles (Rutgers-Newark also has a law school)."

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Re: Rutgers-Camden to be absorbed by Rowan University?

Postby 2LT_CPG » Tue Feb 07, 2012 1:37 am

mrtoren wrote:New Jersey is odd in having two law schools with the same name separated by 70 miles (Rutgers-Newark also has a law school)."

Aren't there a bunch of UC Schools that are close? Irvine is like 40 miles from UCLA.

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Re: Rutgers-Camden to be absorbed by Rowan University?

Postby mrtoren » Tue Feb 07, 2012 1:50 am

2LT_CPG wrote:
mrtoren wrote:New Jersey is odd in having two law schools with the same name separated by 70 miles (Rutgers-Newark also has a law school)."

Aren't there a bunch of UC Schools that are close? Irvine is like 40 miles from UCLA.

New Jersey also readily admits vibrant differences between North and South. It only make sense to have one for each region.

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Re: Rutgers-Camden to be absorbed by Rowan University?

Postby tmgarvey » Tue Feb 07, 2012 2:10 am

mrtoren wrote:I appreciate the time and energy you're putting into keeping this fine institution intact. If you were looking to attend law school today, what would you do in light of the current situation? I'm going back and forth between Camden and Newark. Camden, as it stands, is my number one choice.

What would you do if the school is confirmed to be merging before the seat deposit deadline?

What would you do if the school is still up for grabs when the deadline arrives?

EDIT - "State Sen. Paul Sarlo, D-36th of Wood-Ridge, asked Houshmand if it would be a deal breaker if Rutgers-Camden’s School of Law was not included in the merger. Houshmand replied that it would not, but Cooper University Hospital President and CEO John P. Sheridan Jr. said New Jersey is odd in having two law schools with the same name separated by 70 miles (Rutgers-Newark also has a law school)."

I think it will be months and months before anything is decided. I also think that everyone who has applied to Rutgers will graduate with a Rutgers degree. The weird part would be to think that someday that school might no longer exist.

Moreover, I don't think Newark is absolutely safe from the Christie machinations, either. This Governor has proved, over and over, that if he thinks something is a good idea, he doesn't care whom it might hurt. I would probably not have retired but for the way he has run roughshod over public employees.

So, if it were I making the decision now, in the present climate, I would go ahead with Rutgers-Camden. I know very little about Newark's law school, but I am fond of South Jersey (go figure!), and I like being close to Philadelphia. I think there is relatively little support for the merger, and I think there is a good chance that this threat will abate, particularly if the pressure is kept on the Board of Trustees and the Board of Governors, as well as the legislators. Rutgers-Camden has produced some terrific lawyers and judges, and I have always been proud to say I went to school there.

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Re: Rutgers-Camden to be absorbed by Rowan University?

Postby mrtoren » Wed Feb 08, 2012 2:34 pm

tmgarvey wrote:The weird part would be to think that someday that school might no longer exist.

That's what I worry about. How valuable will my law degree be if the institution that granted it no longer exists? If you're several years out and have already established a reputation, its not as big of a deal. For a new graduate, however, there may be negative connotations attached to the degree. Its a tough call and the stress and distraction of what is sure to be a prolonged battle may edge me up north. I just wish they would have this figured out in the next couple of weeks so I could decide for sure.

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Re: Rutgers-Camden to be absorbed by Rowan University?

Postby 2LT_CPG » Wed Feb 08, 2012 2:35 pm

Is there precedent for the above happening at a similarly-ranked school?

EDIT:
Some quick Wiki action led to this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Princeton_Law_School
RU-C students are proposing Princeton take them over? That seems far-fetched.

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Re: Rutgers-Camden to be absorbed by Rowan University?

Postby mrtoren » Wed Feb 08, 2012 2:47 pm

2LT_CPG wrote:Is there precedent for the above happening at a similarly-ranked school?

To my knowledge, nothing like this has ever happen to a T100 law school before. You've had a couple of lowly for-profit or private TTTTT law schools merge, but they don't paint an accurate picture for a school of this caliber. The local papers are calling the merger of two public undergraduate universities of this stature unprecedented as well. The only reason I haven't run to Newark is because Philadelphia left such a positive impression on me compared to Newark and New York City.

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Re: Rutgers-Camden to be absorbed by Rowan University?

Postby 2LT_CPG » Wed Feb 08, 2012 2:53 pm

mrtoren wrote:To my knowledge, nothing like this has ever happen to a T100 law school before. You've had a couple of lowly for-profit or private TTTTT law schools merge, but they don't paint an accurate picture for a school of this caliber. The local papers are calling the merger of two public undergraduate universities of this stature unprecedented as well. The only reason I haven't run to Newark is because Philadelphia left such a positive impression on me compared to Newark and New York City.

Have you thought about Temple then? Maybe Villanova or Drexel? This whole thing is a mess though, I agree.

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Re: Rutgers-Camden to be absorbed by Rowan University?

Postby mrtoren » Wed Feb 08, 2012 3:04 pm

2LT_CPG wrote:
mrtoren wrote:To my knowledge, nothing like this has ever happen to a T100 law school before. You've had a couple of lowly for-profit or private TTTTT law schools merge, but they don't paint an accurate picture for a school of this caliber. The local papers are calling the merger of two public undergraduate universities of this stature unprecedented as well. The only reason I haven't run to Newark is because Philadelphia left such a positive impression on me compared to Newark and New York City.

Have you thought about Temple then? Maybe Villanova or Drexel? This whole thing is a mess though, I agree.

Drexel came in a little light with the money, I'm on Temple's wait list, and I foolishly didn't apply to Villanova. I know Camden publishes their OCI list, is Newark's list available anywhere? The Philadelphia District Attorney's Office was one of the selected recent placements on RU-N's employment page. I know New York firms go to Camden, perhaps Philadelphia firms come up to Newark.

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Re: Rutgers-Camden to be absorbed by Rowan University?

Postby tmgarvey » Wed Feb 08, 2012 9:09 pm

The R2RMerge blog has a link to this August 2011 article from the Philadelphia Inquirer: http://articles.philly.com/2011-08-21/news/29912003_1_christie-higher-education-commission, which indicates that the Governor's proposed action is illegal, and violates statutes put into place to prevent precisely this kind of rearrangement of the State's system of higher education by fiat.

The Governor does not appear to care about little things like legal technicalities.

There is to be a forum in New Brunswick tomorrow evening for the largest portion of the Rutgers student body. I cannot fathom how anyone affiliated with Rutgers, at any of the campuses, could believe this merger would be a good thing for the University as a whole.

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Re: Rutgers-Camden to be absorbed by Rowan University?

Postby PigBodine » Wed Feb 08, 2012 11:31 pm

2LT_CPG wrote:Is there precedent for the above happening at a similarly-ranked school?


Not exactly the same thing, but there've been a few cases of the opposite thing happening, where a lesser-known, free-standing law school gets absorbed by a bigger school, rather than them building one from scratch. Penn State's Law school has been going from 1834, but it wasn't bought and branded by Penn State until 2000. So there's precedent for that. What there's not really precedent for is the merger adopting the name of the school with the weaker brand name.

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Re: Rutgers-Camden to be absorbed by Rowan University?

Postby 2LT_CPG » Thu Feb 09, 2012 12:35 am

PigBodine wrote:
2LT_CPG wrote:Is there precedent for the above happening at a similarly-ranked school?


Not exactly the same thing, but there've been a few cases of the opposite thing happening, where a lesser-known, free-standing law school gets absorbed by a bigger school, rather than them building one from scratch. Penn State's Law school has been going from 1834, but it wasn't bought and branded by Penn State until 2000. So there's precedent for that. What there's not really precedent for is the merger adopting the name of the school with the weaker brand name.

My undergrad (Fordham) absorbed Marymount College in Westchester County like a decade ago, with the idea of keeping it as an all-women school within Fordham University. It didn't work. There was this giant uproar over it my freshman year because the trustees decided to close it. Alumnae freaked. Current Marymount students freaked. No one was happy, and everyone could tell the university was embarrassed by the whole thing. And that was a Top 50 USNWR national university as the absorbing institution. I can't imagine what it would be like if the scales were reversed.

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Re: Rutgers-Camden to be absorbed by Rowan University?

Postby BostonNJ » Sat Feb 11, 2012 12:44 am

IF, a big if, this ends up going through.
A) it will take years and years and LOTS of money to fully integrate Rutgers into Rowan!
B) if you matriculate while its Rutgers Law, YOU WILL leave with a Rutgers Law degree.
C) Everyone in my class is going to Support "Rutgers Law" with there alumni money! (Rutgers - Newark will drop its name to Rutgers Law).
D) There will be a transition period for the last Rutgers Law Camden class and so you will leave with the Rutgers Law degree, when they start accepting students for "Rowan" they will then get the Rowan Degree.
E) It is VERY unlikely that Rutgers will allow a choice of degree if you got in as Rutgers, they WANT THERE ALUMNI $'s, so they will prob make anyone who enters in as a Rutgers law student get a Rutgers Law Degree.

Finally, this happening in the next few years is Very unlikely. There are so many Rutgers Law Camden Alum in the State legislature and serving as NJ judges that are not letting this happen. So please dont worry, its an amazing school. I love it and I am so glad I am grandfathered in. YOU WILL BE TOO!

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Re: Rutgers-Camden to be absorbed by Rowan University?

Postby MarcusAurelius » Wed Feb 15, 2012 4:53 pm

I work in the Office of the President @ Rowan University where they refer to the Rutgers-Rowan merger as "Rut-Ro"

:lol:

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Re: Rutgers-Camden to be absorbed by Rowan University?

Postby 2LT_CPG » Wed Feb 15, 2012 5:09 pm

MarcusAurelius wrote:I work in the Office of the President @ Rowan University where they refer to the Rutgers-Rowan merger as "Rut-Ro"

:lol:

:|
For all that's been said about how Rutgers students and faculty hate this, I'm sure Rowan is loving it. What're most Rowan people saying? They're potentially getting a law school out of it, so I imagine they like it.

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Re: Rutgers-Camden to be absorbed by Rowan University?

Postby mrtoren » Thu Feb 16, 2012 12:53 am

2LT_CPG wrote: :|
For all that's been said about how Rutgers students and faculty hate this, I'm sure Rowan is loving it. What're most Rowan people saying? They're potentially getting a law school out of it, so I imagine they like it.

The administration at Rowan is basking in the publicity. When all is said and done, Rowan will probably be a household name. That being said, I think the faculty and students there are enduring a lot of criticism and are on the receiving end of countless charges of 'inferiority.' I'm not sure they like being in that position anymore than the Rutgers students like facing a merger. Fortunately, this incoming class will never have to worry about the Rowan name.

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Re: Rutgers-Camden to be absorbed by Rowan University?

Postby BostonNJ » Thu Feb 16, 2012 2:57 am

mrtoren wrote:
2LT_CPG wrote: HUGE day for Rutgers Camden. The Board of trustees has just unanimously agreed to making sure that all who attend Rutgers now or in the 2012/2013 class will get a "Rutgers Law" degree "if" the proposal goes through in some manner. It seems to me from that meeting that the Board of Governors will not relinquish Rutgers Camden as easy as some people thought. There is a lot of pressure on them to hold on to the campus. The biggest fear is that it will sully the rest of the University if they cede the Southern 1/3 of the State. It really looks like its not going to happen.

What is likely is a consortium with Rowan. A very strong one that will allow our JD's to work with there new MEdical school, and vice versa. Its turning out that the merger plan is becoming VERY unpopular to the voters of NJ, and I think Christie is already starting to back down from it! Either way, the law school will not be affected for incoming students, and again this merger seems very very very unlikely to go through, its gonna cost much more then anyone had expected making it even more unpopular!

I am a student here PM me for any questions!

For all that's been said about how Rutgers students and faculty hate this, I'm sure Rowan is loving it. What're most Rowan people saying? They're potentially getting a law school out of it, so I imagine they like it.

The administration at Rowan is basking in the publicity. When all is said and done, Rowan will probably be a household name. That being said, I think the faculty and students there are enduring a lot of criticism and are on the receiving end of countless charges of 'inferiority.' I'm not sure they like being in that position anymore than the Rutgers students like facing a merger. Fortunately, this incoming class will never have to worry about the Rowan name.

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Re: Rutgers-Camden to be absorbed by Rowan University?

Postby BostonNJ » Thu Feb 16, 2012 2:58 am

HUGE day for Rutgers Camden. The Board of trustees has just unanimously agreed to making sure that all who attend Rutgers now or in the 2012/2013 class will get a "Rutgers Law" degree "if" the proposal goes through in some manner. It seems to me from that meeting that the Board of Governors will not relinquish Rutgers Camden as easy as some people thought. There is a lot of pressure on them to hold on to the campus. The biggest fear is that it will sully the rest of the University if they cede the Southern 1/3 of the State. It really looks like its not going to happen.

What is likely is a consortium with Rowan. A very strong one that will allow our JD's to work with there new MEdical school, and vice versa. Its turning out that the merger plan is becoming VERY unpopular to the voters of NJ, and I think Christie is already starting to back down from it! Either way, the law school will not be affected for incoming students, and again this merger seems very very very unlikely to go through, its gonna cost much more then anyone had expected making it even more unpopular!

I am a student here PM me for any questions!

For all that's been said about how Rutgers students and faculty hate this, I'm sure Rowan is loving it. What're most Rowan people saying? They're potentially getting a law school out of it, so I imagine they like it.

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Postby Fletcher Reed » Fri Mar 09, 2012 2:39 am

d
Last edited by Fletcher Reed on Tue Apr 03, 2012 10:15 pm, edited 2 times in total.




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