T14 now vs. reapplication/consulting

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TennesseeBob
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T14 now vs. reapplication/consulting

Postby TennesseeBob » Tue Jan 24, 2012 12:41 pm

Hi all,

I've been accepted to one of MVP at sticker for next year and also have an offer to work in the consulting field (don't want to get too specific). This cycle (except for the MVP acceptance) didn't work out as I had planned due to an LSAT score that (while still decent by non-TLS standards) was much much lower than I was anticipating based of of 50 practice tests (and some other practice ones) where I was scoring in the mid 170s decently consistently. I have close to a 4.0 from a top UG school and with a higher LSAT score, I figure there is a chance I could have gotten a little bit of scholarship money or perhaps acceptance into a "higher" ranked T14.

Considering how much some of these schools cost at sticker (I'm still a student) and the job market right now, does anyone have advice for someone still in UG like myself?

MrAnon
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Re: T14 now vs. reapplication/consulting

Postby MrAnon » Tue Jan 24, 2012 12:44 pm

law school will always be around. jobs will not. take the job if you have one available. can always go to law school later.

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bk1
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Re: T14 now vs. reapplication/consulting

Postby bk1 » Tue Jan 24, 2012 12:46 pm

Take the job and retake. You'll save yourself from ending up in so much debt (since you can get scholarships and can use money from your job) and you'll have better employment prospects (either by going to be a better school, possibly HYS, or by having decent work experience that will set you apart from your K-JD peers).

minnesotamike
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Re: T14 now vs. reapplication/consulting

Postby minnesotamike » Tue Jan 24, 2012 12:46 pm

Do consulting, network like a boss, and spend the rest of your life hiring lawyers instead of being one.

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TennesseeBob
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Re: T14 now vs. reapplication/consulting

Postby TennesseeBob » Tue Jan 24, 2012 9:07 pm

could a reapplication hurt my chances at the MVP I got into or are these type of schools generally OK with that?

Also, is there a major difference in hiring right now between MVP and the top 3-6?

09042014
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Re: T14 now vs. reapplication/consulting

Postby 09042014 » Tue Jan 24, 2012 9:08 pm

minnesotamike wrote:Do consulting, network like a boss, and spend the rest of your life hiring lawyers instead of being one.


Or more likely: Do consulting get laid off like a boss, go to B school, do it again, get laid off then do F500 bro

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Gail
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Re: T14 now vs. reapplication/consulting

Postby Gail » Tue Jan 24, 2012 11:17 pm

TennesseeBob wrote:could a reapplication hurt my chances at the MVP I got into or are these type of schools generally OK with that?

Also, is there a major difference in hiring right now between MVP and the top 3-6?


Yes to the second.


I wouldn't think it would hurt your chances. You'd have a great reason for taking time off.

iamrobk
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Re: T14 now vs. reapplication/consulting

Postby iamrobk » Tue Jan 24, 2012 11:28 pm

Gail wrote:
TennesseeBob wrote:could a reapplication hurt my chances at the MVP I got into or are these type of schools generally OK with that?

Also, is there a major difference in hiring right now between MVP and the top 3-6?


Yes to the second.


I wouldn't think it would hurt your chances. You'd have a great reason for taking time off.

FWIW here's the percent of NLJ250 jobs plus percent of A3 clerkships averaged over the last 4 years (stolen from this topic viewtopic.php?f=5&t=174020). Not the best way to determine things, but gives a pretty decent picture IMO.
Chicago: 74%
Stanford: 73%
Columbia: 73%
Penn: 71%
Harvard: 71%
Yale: 67%
Northwestern: 67%
NYU: 66%
Virginia: 65%
Duke: 64%
Cornell: 64%
Michigan: 62%
Berkeley: 60%
Georgetown: 50%

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Gail
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Re: T14 now vs. reapplication/consulting

Postby Gail » Wed Jan 25, 2012 12:41 am

iamrobk wrote:
Gail wrote:
TennesseeBob wrote:could a reapplication hurt my chances at the MVP I got into or are these type of schools generally OK with that?

Also, is there a major difference in hiring right now between MVP and the top 3-6?


Yes to the second.


I wouldn't think it would hurt your chances. You'd have a great reason for taking time off.

FWIW here's the percent of NLJ250 jobs plus percent of A3 clerkships averaged over the last 4 years (stolen from this topic http://top-law-schools.com/forums/viewt ... 5&t=174020). Not the best way to determine things, but gives a pretty decent picture IMO.
Chicago: 74%
Stanford: 73%
Columbia: 73%
Penn: 71%
Harvard: 71%
Yale: 67%
Northwestern: 67%
NYU: 66%
Virginia: 65%
Duke: 64%
Cornell: 64%
Michigan: 62%
Berkeley: 60%
Georgetown: 50%


Huh. Contrary to TLS lore. Nevermind then. Do what you like. I'd still do consulting first though.

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Errzii
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Re: T14 now vs. reapplication/consulting

Postby Errzii » Wed Jan 25, 2012 12:44 am

iamrobk wrote:FWIW here's the percent of NLJ250 jobs plus percent of A3 clerkships averaged over the last 4 years (stolen from this topic http://top-law-schools.com/forums/viewt ... 5&t=174020). Not the best way to determine things, but gives a pretty decent picture IMO.
Chicago: 74%
Stanford: 73%
Columbia: 73%
Penn: 71%
Harvard: 71%
Yale: 67%
Northwestern: 67%
NYU: 66%
Virginia: 65%
Duke: 64%
Cornell: 64%
Michigan: 62%
Berkeley: 60%
Georgetown: 50%


Not sure why but it seems like Penn performs significantly better than people give it credit for.

Also, on the OP: retake/work, that's a baller ass GPA and the sky is the limit for you (at least in terms of applying to law schools). More work experience never hurts either.
Last edited by Errzii on Wed Jan 25, 2012 12:49 am, edited 1 time in total.

iamrobk
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Re: T14 now vs. reapplication/consulting

Postby iamrobk » Wed Jan 25, 2012 12:47 am

Gail wrote:
iamrobk wrote:
Gail wrote:
TennesseeBob wrote:could a reapplication hurt my chances at the MVP I got into or are these type of schools generally OK with that?

Also, is there a major difference in hiring right now between MVP and the top 3-6?


Yes to the second.


I wouldn't think it would hurt your chances. You'd have a great reason for taking time off.

FWIW here's the percent of NLJ250 jobs plus percent of A3 clerkships averaged over the last 4 years (stolen from this topic viewtopic.php?f=5&t=174020). Not the best way to determine things, but gives a pretty decent picture IMO.
Chicago: 74%
Stanford: 73%
Columbia: 73%
Penn: 71%
Harvard: 71%
Yale: 67%
Northwestern: 67%
NYU: 66%
Virginia: 65%
Duke: 64%
Cornell: 64%
Michigan: 62%
Berkeley: 60%
Georgetown: 50%


Huh. Contrary to TLS lore. Nevermind then. Do what you like. I'd still do consulting first though.

I mean it's far from a perfect representation (hell look at where Yale is), but it seems to support and deny some traditional TLS wisdom IMO.

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IAFG
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Re: T14 now vs. reapplication/consulting

Postby IAFG » Wed Jan 25, 2012 1:41 am

iamrobk wrote:I mean it's far from a perfect representation (hell look at where Yale is), but it seems to support and deny some traditional TLS wisdom IMO.

That's not due to a flaw in the "representation," you just have to understand what the data seeks to show. Among the 33% who aren't doing an Art. III clerkship or NLJ250 from Yale, some are in PI, some are in gov't, some are doing a non-Art. III clerkship, some are in PhD programs, some are working at non-legal employers (like JDMBAs in consulting and finance) some are at non-NLJ250 firms (which is any firm with fewer than 160 attorneys, and includes plenty of market paying jobs at firms or boutiques that pay more than market) and maybe a couple struck out. That's going to be true everywhere.

It would be a mistake to assume that Berkeley or GULC has weaker placement power based on this data alone: maybe they just send more people to PI than other T14s. And maybe Michigan and Duke students are more likely to take jobs in the Midwest or South at firms with 100-150 lawyers that are the "biglaw" of smaller cities.

I personally suspect this data just shows how similar the top schools place, with almost all the T14 falling within +/-10% of each other.

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Perdevise
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Re: T14 now vs. reapplication/consulting

Postby Perdevise » Wed Jan 25, 2012 11:48 am

A GPA like that and a mid-170s LSAT is pretty good odds for Harvard, and an interesting year in consulting could give you decent chances for Y/S. Earning $ for a year and T-3 secure sounds solid.

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JDizzle2015
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Re: T14 now vs. reapplication/consulting

Postby JDizzle2015 » Wed Jan 25, 2012 1:14 pm

Errzii wrote:
iamrobk wrote:FWIW here's the percent of NLJ250 jobs plus percent of A3 clerkships averaged over the last 4 years (stolen from this topic http://top-law-schools.com/forums/viewt ... 5&t=174020). Not the best way to determine things, but gives a pretty decent picture IMO.
Chicago: 74%
Stanford: 73%
Columbia: 73%
Penn: 71%
Harvard: 71%
Yale: 67%
Northwestern: 67%
NYU: 66%
Virginia: 65%
Duke: 64%
Cornell: 64%
Michigan: 62%
Berkeley: 60%
Georgetown: 50%


Not sure why but it seems like Penn performs significantly better than people give it credit for.

Also, on the OP: retake/work, that's a baller ass GPA and the sky is the limit for you (at least in terms of applying to law schools). More work experience never hurts either.

To OP, since you've gotten into one MVP and I'm not sure which one that is, you should note that Penn students tend to self-select BigLaw while Michigan students lean more towards PI/nonprofit (at least that's my 0L interpretation of it). That might help explain the statistic above. Self-selection definitely explains Yale's position on that list as well, imo.

For example, I probably won't help this particular statistic for the school I end up attending because I know I have some decent paying nonprofit job offers at companies with goals that I believe in. (I'm leaning towards UMich at this point.) I didn't get into V, so I haven't done much research on them.

If I were in your position, I wouldn't want to waste that GPA and would retake to try for a higher score; although I feel that since you took ~50 practice tests already, there might not be much room for improvement unless you can really pinpoint why you underperformed on the actual thing. Consulting, especially if it's for one the big guys like McKenzie/Deloitte/Accenture/etc, and then pursuing a top MBA program might be a good path as well. Good luck, OP!

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whitman
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Re: T14 now vs. reapplication/consulting

Postby whitman » Wed Jan 25, 2012 3:38 pm

I don't know. I think people give Penn a lot of credit and seem to think it's the best of MVPB. What I notice is that Duke, Northwestern, and Cornell seem unfairly maligned. Not that the groupings matter at all, but for prospective students that are deciding between these schools and considering giving up great scholarships to jump into a higher grouping, it's really more like HYS CCN MVPBDNC G, though I think Georgetown is hurt by self-selection into DC, which is a brutal market, and government/PI. Also, I think Duke does have a lot of graduates going to non-NLJ firms that are big and prestigious in, say, Raleigh or Birmingham. So when compared to, say, Cornell, which is largely focused on those NLJ firms, it's 64% might not be representative of true placement power. I see no reason why people differentiate between MVPB and Duke and Northwestern in particular. Maybe the judge scores or something? And is the gap between Harvard/Stanford and Columbia really that huge? I don't know. I guess I just think this and everything else I've read seem to indicate that the differences are way overblown on this site. FWIW I'm choosing N/D over three higher ranked schools, so I guess I'm biased...

Errzii wrote:
iamrobk wrote:FWIW here's the percent of NLJ250 jobs plus percent of A3 clerkships averaged over the last 4 years (stolen from this topic http://top-law-schools.com/forums/viewt ... 5&t=174020). Not the best way to determine things, but gives a pretty decent picture IMO.
Chicago: 74%
Stanford: 73%
Columbia: 73%
Penn: 71%
Harvard: 71%
Yale: 67%
Northwestern: 67%
NYU: 66%
Virginia: 65%
Duke: 64%
Cornell: 64%
Michigan: 62%
Berkeley: 60%
Georgetown: 50%


Not sure why but it seems like Penn performs significantly better than people give it credit for.

Also, on the OP: retake/work, that's a baller ass GPA and the sky is the limit for you (at least in terms of applying to law schools). More work experience never hurts either.

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TennesseeBob
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Re: T14 now vs. reapplication/consulting

Postby TennesseeBob » Thu Jan 26, 2012 2:55 pm

Thanks for the input everyone- at this point I'm leaning towards the job and a retake so that I can better position my job prospects in the future.

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TennesseeBob
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Re: T14 now vs. reapplication/consulting

Postby TennesseeBob » Tue Jan 31, 2012 1:49 pm

quick question:

has anyone here successfully reapplied to schools and gotten in a second time (in the event that I don't see a score increase)

bp shinners
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Re: T14 now vs. reapplication/consulting

Postby bp shinners » Tue Jan 31, 2012 4:19 pm

TennesseeBob wrote:quick question:

has anyone here successfully reapplied to schools and gotten in a second time (in the event that I don't see a score increase)


I didn't personally, but I know people who did.

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thelawyler
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Re: T14 now vs. reapplication/consulting

Postby thelawyler » Thu Feb 02, 2012 2:10 am

TennesseeBob wrote:could a reapplication hurt my chances at the MVP I got into or are these type of schools generally OK with that?

Also, is there a major difference in hiring right now between MVP and the top 3-6?


I reapplied this year and I'm doing fine. And I'd say there is a difference between MVP and top 6.

Gocho
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Re: T14 now vs. reapplication/consulting

Postby Gocho » Sun Feb 05, 2012 2:54 pm

There's a breakdown in consulting that's not too different from what people on this forum discuss with regard to law schools.

Does your offer come from McKinsey, Bain, or BCG? If so, take it and run. Some boutique second tier groups should get the same reaction.

If you're looking at Accenture/Deloitte technology groups, maybe not so much.

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IAFG
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Re: T14 now vs. reapplication/consulting

Postby IAFG » Sun Feb 05, 2012 9:03 pm

Gocho wrote:There's a breakdown in consulting that's not too different from what people on this forum discuss with regard to law schools.

Does your offer come from McKinsey, Bain, or BCG? If so, take it and run. Some boutique second tier groups should get the same reaction.

If you're looking at Accenture/Deloitte technology groups, maybe not so much.

I don't think there's a yawning gap between the types of consulting for the purpose of gaining experience before attending law school.

Renzo
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Re: T14 now vs. reapplication/consulting

Postby Renzo » Sun Feb 05, 2012 10:22 pm

Desert Fox wrote:
minnesotamike wrote:Do consulting, network like a boss, and spend the rest of your life hiring lawyers instead of being one.


Or more likely: Do consulting get laid off like a boss, go to B school, do it again, get laid off then do F500 bro



90% of law students would cut their own genitals out for this. And the other 10% are too stupid to realize what a mistake they've made.

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acrossthelake
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Re: T14 now vs. reapplication/consulting

Postby acrossthelake » Sun Feb 05, 2012 10:55 pm

Some frown if they admit, and then you re-apply. I've seen ppl previously accepted get waitlisted this way. However, if you make sure to let them know that it's because you wanted work experience first and to grow that skillset first, then you'll probably be okay.

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TennesseeBob
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Re: T14 now vs. reapplication/consulting

Postby TennesseeBob » Wed Feb 08, 2012 4:10 pm

Gocho and IAFG, I'm definitely looking to get some work experience but am not necessarily looking for something that will directly tie in to the type of law I want to do. Also, I am pretty set on attending law school regardless of how I like consulting, so I don't know if that makes it a better or worse decision to go for the job.

Acrossthelake, do you think they would still frown upon a reapplication if you applied ED and super early in the cycle?




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