How many people are still applying to TTT and TTTT?

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MTal
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Re: How many people are still applying to TTT and TTTT?

Postby MTal » Mon Jan 23, 2012 5:19 pm

acrossthelake wrote:
MTal wrote:
acrossthelake wrote:Also, Mtal, your problem is your inability to see that a lot of the people you're preaching to are at YHS/T14 with money/lower schools with full rides, and so your yelling at us to not go when we fit into the chunk of people who you think can go is nonsensical.


NYLS is a T14? Because that was the thread I was posting in until I was issued a board warning and told to get out.


Don't pretend like that's the only thing you've done here.


No. But when I post in NYLS thread I'm told to shut up because I shouldn't be harrassing the naive delusional 0L's and when I post in any other threads I'm told I shouldn't be harrassing those who are T14 bound with massive scholarships. Do you see where I am coming from here?

snehpets
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Re: How many people are still applying to TTT and TTTT?

Postby snehpets » Mon Jan 23, 2012 5:20 pm

MTal wrote:
No. But when I post in NYLS thread I'm told to shut up because I shouldn't be harrassing the naive delusional 0L's and when I post in any other threads I'm told I shouldn't be harrassing those who are T14 bound with massive scholarships. Do you see where I am coming from here?


Nope.

But really, the problem is that you say the same thing over and over again to the same people in threads that are already admitting that attending a TTT or TTTT at sticker is a bad idea. If this was a thread full of people talking about "Reasons why attending TTT at sticker is a good idea," then your counter argument would make sense. Mindlessly trolling threads full of people who already agree with you is just annoying.

And you're not going to convince anyone that trolling Class of threads is appropriate that doesn't already feel that way, so don't bother.
Last edited by snehpets on Mon Jan 23, 2012 5:23 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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kwais
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Re: How many people are still applying to TTT and TTTT?

Postby kwais » Mon Jan 23, 2012 5:21 pm

MTal is still crying about his board warning. He equates it with being a political dissident in Burma or something. Thought he had thicker skin than this.

snehpets
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Re: How many people are still applying to TTT and TTTT?

Postby snehpets » Mon Jan 23, 2012 5:24 pm

Nelson wrote:
snehpets wrote:
Paul Campos wrote:
It doesn't work that way, at all. The career prospects at the number 30 school look way more like those at the number 195 school than they look like those at the T-6 schools (which aren't so great either when you consider debt, risk, and psychic costs).

I understand that you're more skilled in making arguments, that you're a law professor and I'm an uninformed 0L, etc., but if I'm the jury you're just not convincing me. I'm not trying to be disrespectful (even on the internet, lol), but if I'm supposed to take everything you say as if it were handed down on stone tablets the way most on this forum do, I would like to understand what exactly you're advocating and why. I I saw that someone asked you earlier what circumstances you do think that students should consider attending law school, but I didn't see your answer. Perhaps I missed it?

Don't hold your breath. He's baiting everyone for attention with information that's far from revelatory. I'm not sure why we're supposed to treat this guy like a saint.


Yeah, this really hurts his credibility for me.

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splitbrain
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Re: How many people are still applying to TTT and TTTT?

Postby splitbrain » Mon Jan 23, 2012 5:45 pm

MTal wrote:
acrossthelake wrote:
MTal wrote:
acrossthelake wrote:Also, Mtal, your problem is your inability to see that a lot of the people you're preaching to are at YHS/T14 with money/lower schools with full rides, and so your yelling at us to not go when we fit into the chunk of people who you think can go is nonsensical.


NYLS is a T14? Because that was the thread I was posting in until I was issued a board warning and told to get out.


Don't pretend like that's the only thing you've done here.


No. But when I post in NYLS thread I'm told to shut up because I shouldn't be harrassing the naive delusional 0L's and when I post in any other threads I'm told I shouldn't be harrassing those who are T14 bound with massive scholarships. Do you see where I am coming from here?


I mean this respectfully but I believe you see yourself as this:
Image

but you're coming off as this:
--ImageRemoved--

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Grizz
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Re: How many people are still applying to TTT and TTTT?

Postby Grizz » Mon Jan 23, 2012 5:46 pm

Paul Campos wrote:(2) I've got debts no honest man can pay.

TIL Paul Campos is a Springsteen fan.

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MTal
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Re: How many people are still applying to TTT and TTTT?

Postby MTal » Mon Jan 23, 2012 5:51 pm

splitbrain wrote:
I mean this respectfully but I believe you see yourself as this:

but you're coming off as this:


I detest all comic books and comic book characters.

snehpets
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Re: How many people are still applying to TTT and TTTT?

Postby snehpets » Mon Jan 23, 2012 5:52 pm

MTal wrote:
splitbrain wrote:
I mean this respectfully but I believe you see yourself as this:

but you're coming off as this:


I detest all comic books and comic book characters.


Lol, good that this is what you took away from multiple people trying to explain what the problem with your approach is in response to your incessant questions about it.

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turkishswat
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Re: How many people are still applying to TTT and TTTT?

Postby turkishswat » Mon Jan 23, 2012 6:04 pm

snehpets wrote:
MTal wrote:
splitbrain wrote:
I mean this respectfully but I believe you see yourself as this:

but you're coming off as this:


I detest all comic books and comic book characters.


Lol, good that this is what you took away from multiple people trying to explain what the problem with your approach is in response to your incessant questions about it.


You post too much.

snehpets
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Re: How many people are still applying to TTT and TTTT?

Postby snehpets » Mon Jan 23, 2012 6:05 pm

turkishswat wrote:
snehpets wrote:
MTal wrote:
splitbrain wrote:
I mean this respectfully but I believe you see yourself as this:

but you're coming off as this:


I detest all comic books and comic book characters.


Lol, good that this is what you took away from multiple people trying to explain what the problem with your approach is in response to your incessant questions about it.


You post too much.


Fair.

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BiglawOrBust
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Re: How many people are still applying to TTT and TTTT?

Postby BiglawOrBust » Mon Jan 23, 2012 7:21 pm

flem wrote:Also, Professor Campos, I have a question for you.

You obviously have a unique perspective being on the inside of acadamia, and I feel that you provide a valuable service to many who are otherwise uninformed or unitiated. But, how do you reconcile the fact that you profit from the very system that you rally against? The current system is broken and it's great that you are bringing attention to that, but aren't you as complicit as the rest in your contributions?

Certainly this doesn't make your argument and points any less valid, but it seems that if you feel as strongly as you do about law school being a scam, that would be hard to reconcile.


Haven't you read his posts? He can't do anything else with his law degree!

Paul Campos
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Re: How many people are still applying to TTT and TTTT?

Postby Paul Campos » Mon Jan 23, 2012 7:28 pm

BiglawOrBust wrote:
flem wrote:Also, Professor Campos, I have a question for you.

You obviously have a unique perspective being on the inside of acadamia, and I feel that you provide a valuable service to many who are otherwise uninformed or unitiated. But, how do you reconcile the fact that you profit from the very system that you rally against? The current system is broken and it's great that you are bringing attention to that, but aren't you as complicit as the rest in your contributions?

Certainly this doesn't make your argument and points any less valid, but it seems that if you feel as strongly as you do about law school being a scam, that would be hard to reconcile.


Haven't you read his posts? He can't do anything else with his law degree!



If only this were a joke.

Glad somebody caught the Atlantic City reference.

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Re: How many people are still applying to TTT and TTTT?

Postby T1hopeful » Mon Jan 23, 2012 8:00 pm

flem wrote:
splitbrain wrote:
Paul Campos wrote:It doesn't work that way, at all. The career prospects at the number 30 school look way more like those at the number 195 school than they look like those at the T-6 schools (which aren't so great either when you consider debt, risk, and psychic costs).


I get that it's not linear but that's an incredibly misleading statement right there.


Right, so my chance at success is roughly the same if I attend Colorado-Boulder or Cooley?


I was thinking the same thing. I get that T30 schools have no where near the job opportunities of T6, but there's no way that W&L, W&M, BC, ND, UNC, et al are closer to Appalachian and Cooley in career prospects than they are to CCN. I mean give me a break.

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Re: How many people are still applying to TTT and TTTT?

Postby acrossthelake » Mon Jan 23, 2012 8:11 pm

MTal wrote:
No. But when I post in NYLS thread I'm told to shut up because I shouldn't be harrassing the naive delusional 0L's and when I post in any other threads I'm told I shouldn't be harrassing those who are T14 bound with massive scholarships. Do you see where I am coming from here?


We have a general policy that you cannot go into school-specific waiting or accepted threads to disparage the school, regardless of school ranking.
You can start separate threads about it, but not those particular ones.

In other threads, you're often rather abrasive. That might be the first time I've seen you take what I perceive to be a moderate stance, and I've read a decent # of your threads.

And I don't feel the need to discuss your lounge antics.

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romothesavior
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Re: How many people are still applying to TTT and TTTT?

Postby romothesavior » Mon Jan 23, 2012 9:34 pm

T1hopeful wrote:
flem wrote:
splitbrain wrote:
Paul Campos wrote:It doesn't work that way, at all. The career prospects at the number 30 school look way more like those at the number 195 school than they look like those at the T-6 schools (which aren't so great either when you consider debt, risk, and psychic costs).


I get that it's not linear but that's an incredibly misleading statement right there.


Right, so my chance at success is roughly the same if I attend Colorado-Boulder or Cooley?


I was thinking the same thing. I get that T30 schools have no where near the job opportunities of T6, but there's no way that W&L, W&M, BC, ND, UNC, et al are closer to Appalachian and Cooley in career prospects than they are to CCN. I mean give me a break.

Actually, I think its probably about right. First of all, Cooley is an aberration. It is the absolute worst of the worst, so its a bad example. But I really don't think its a stretch to say that some TTT/TTTT is closer in placement to a T30 than a T30 is to a T6. (Of course, it also depends on the T30 you choose.)

Just to throw out some (somewhat) educated guesses as to employment data, I'll bet easily 80%+ of T6 students are working as full time, JD-required, permanent lawyers 9 months out of law school. That number is probably 40-50% at a lot of the T1 schools you just mentioned. At some TTTTs of the world, it may be 10%. Sure, a T30 school may have a lot higher percentage of employed students, but most of the students below median at a school like Emory, America, George Mason, W&L, WUSTL, etc. are going to be facing the same prospects as the average students at Dayton, Valpraiso, Northern Illinois, Texas Wesleyan, etc. (hint: it rhymes with "funemployed.")

For biglaw placement (and theseare not educated guesses, but based on real data), the difference between a WUSTL/IUB/UNC/etc. and a T6 is probably 40-50% or more. If the Cooleys of the world are placing probably 1-2% or so into NLJ 250 biglaw, then the biglaw prospects of a school like IUB are much closer to Cooley than Chicago.

I don't think what Campos said was really off.

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Re: How many people are still applying to TTT and TTTT?

Postby Paul Campos » Mon Jan 23, 2012 9:44 pm

I get that it's not linear but that's an incredibly misleading statement right there.[/quote]

Right, so my chance at success is roughly the same if I attend Colorado-Boulder or Cooley?[/quote]

I was thinking the same thing. I get that T30 schools have no where near the job opportunities of T6, but there's no way that W&L, W&M, BC, ND, UNC, et al are closer to Appalachian and Cooley in career prospects than they are to CCN. I mean give me a break.[/quote]
Actually, I think its probably about right. First of all, Cooley is an aberration. It is the absolute worst of the worst, so its a bad example. But I really don't think its a stretch to say that some TTT/TTTT is closer in placement to a T30 than a T30 is to a T6. (Of course, it also depends on the T30 you choose.)

Just to throw out some (somewhat) educated guesses as to employment data, I'll bet easily 80%+ of T6 students are working as full time, JD-required, permanent lawyers 9 months out of law school. That number is probably 40-50% at a lot of the T1 schools you just mentioned. At some TTTTs of the world, it may be 10%. Sure, a T30 school may have a lot higher percentage of employed students, but most of the students below median at a school like Emory, America, George Mason, W&L, WUSTL, etc. are going to be facing the same prospects as the average students at Dayton, Valpraiso, Northern Illinois, Texas Wesleyan, etc. (hint: it rhymes with "funemployed.")

For biglaw placement (and theseare not educated guesses, but based on real data), the difference between a WUSTL/IUB/UNC/etc. and a T6 is probably 40-50% or more. If the Cooleys of the world are placing probably 1-2% or so into NLJ 250 biglaw, then the biglaw prospects of a school like IUB are much closer to Cooley than Chicago.

I don't think what Campos said was really off.[/quote]

You are disturbing a beautiful dream with unpleasant facts.

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Re: How many people are still applying to TTT and TTTT?

Postby timbs4339 » Mon Jan 23, 2012 10:03 pm

At least at T6 the number of full-time JD-required permanent lawyers 9 mo. out is probably higher than 95%. But the big difference is in the type of jobs. Of that 95%, most of the T6 students will be in jobs that only the top 20% or fewer of the students at a T50 will be eligible for, such as biglaw, Article 3 clerkships, prestigious PI and federal government.

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Re: How many people are still applying to TTT and TTTT?

Postby T1hopeful » Mon Jan 23, 2012 11:00 pm

Actually, I think its probably about right. First of all, Cooley is an aberration. It is the absolute worst of the worst, so its a bad example. But I really don't think its a stretch to say that some TTT/TTTT is closer in placement to a T30 than a T30 is to a T6. (Of course, it also depends on the T30 you choose.)

Just to throw out some (somewhat) educated guesses as to employment data, I'll bet easily 80%+ of T6 students are working as full time, JD-required, permanent lawyers 9 months out of law school. That number is probably 40-50% at a lot of the T1 schools you just mentioned. At some TTTTs of the world, it may be 10%. Sure, a T30 school may have a lot higher percentage of employed students, but most of the students below median at a school like Emory, America, George Mason, W&L, WUSTL, etc. are going to be facing the same prospects as the average students at Dayton, Valpraiso, Northern Illinois, Texas Wesleyan, etc. (hint: it rhymes with "funemployed.")

For biglaw placement (and theseare not educated guesses, but based on real data), the difference between a WUSTL/IUB/UNC/etc. and a T6 is probably 40-50% or more. If the Cooleys of the world are placing probably 1-2% or so into NLJ 250 biglaw, then the biglaw prospects of a school like IUB are much closer to Cooley than Chicago.

I don't think what Campos said was really off.


I agree that some of it has to do with the specific school, but still seems like a bit of a stretch to me. According to LST, W&M's 25-50-75% for private sector employment salaries are $92,000-$135,000-$160,000 with 79% reporting (compared to $160,000-$160,000-$160,000 for Columbia). Barry's is $40,000-$50,000-$63,000 with 82% reporting (pretty good compared to a lot of other TTTT). At nine months out W&M has 2% unemployed and seeking work, Barry has 22%. It is true though that Columbia kills both of them as far as % in law firms and 98% have JD required jobs, but W&M has 88% compared to 62% for Barry. FT is 99% and 87% respectively. I'm not saying that W&M is anywhere near as good as Columbia, obviously it isn't. I could be wrong, but just struck me as hyperbolic.

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romothesavior
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Re: How many people are still applying to TTT and TTTT?

Postby romothesavior » Mon Jan 23, 2012 11:29 pm

LST does the best they can with the data provided, but I scratch my head at the data sometimes (probably more the school's fault than LST's). W&L has about 10% NLJ 250 placement ITE. The vast majority of firms that pay 92k+ starting are going to be NLJ 250 firms. While it is true that some firms pay that much but are not NLJ, there are also some NLJ 250 firms that don't even pay 6 figures. So assuming that the number of students placed into 90k+ jobs is roughly equal to their NLJ 250 placement data (let's say 10-15% of all students), how in the holy hell can anyone massage that into 75% of the private sector students of the 79% reporting making 92k+?

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splitbrain
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Re: How many people are still applying to TTT and TTTT?

Postby splitbrain » Tue Jan 24, 2012 12:18 am

Paul Campos wrote:You are disturbing a beautiful dream with unpleasant facts.


Did you just describe a statement containing the terms "educated guess", "probably", and "maybe" as factual?

:|

How about we have a look at Stanford (#3), UC Berkeley (#9), UC Hastings (#42, sorry it's not #30), and Golden Gate University (our Tier 4).

I'm choosing these schools because of their proximity to each other, all in San Francisco or surrounding areas.

Disclaimer: I'm not a statistician, just a number geek. This is just for anybody who may be interested.

Data is for Class of 2010

Unemployed, seeking work:
Stanford: <0.05%
Berkeley: 3.72%
Hastings: 5.6%
NALP average: 6.2%
Golden Gate: 13.7%

Percentage in a position that requires bar-passage (FT/PT), of those that reported being employed:
Stanford: Not reported
Berkeley: 96%
Hastings: 86.86%
NALP average: 68.4%
Golden Gate: 45.1%

Bar passage required, full time (out of all graduates reported):
Stanford: Not reported
Berkeley: 93.5%
Hastings: 52.3%
Golden Gate: 35.3%

Percentage of graduates working for law firms that are employed in a law firm with 251+ attorneys:
Stanford: 87.4%
Berkeley: 84.1%
Hastings: 29.32%
NALP average: 26.5%
Golden Gate: 6%

Percentage of graduates as a whole that are in a law firm with 251+ attorneys:
Stanford: 48.5%
Berkeley: 47.6%
Hastings: 16%
Golden Gate: 2%

Clerkships (out of all graduates reported):
Stanford: 31%
Berkeley: 9.39%
Hastings: 4.5%
Golden Gate: 0.7%

Just to reiterate, no one in this thread implied or stated that there was a linear relationship between rankings and employment success/failure.

I think it's fair to say that no one on TLS would expect #42 to closely mirror #3, but to say it's "way more" like the Tier 4 is downright misleading and irresponsible.

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MTal
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Re: How many people are still applying to TTT and TTTT?

Postby MTal » Tue Jan 24, 2012 12:23 am

# 42 is much closer to T4 even when using the numbers that you yourself provided.

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Tiago Splitter
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Re: How many people are still applying to TTT and TTTT?

Postby Tiago Splitter » Tue Jan 24, 2012 12:29 am

splitbrain wrote:
Bar passage required, full time (out of all graduates reported):
Stanford: Not reported
Berkeley: 93.5%
Hastings: 52.3%
Golden Gate: 35.3%

Percentage of graduates working for law firms that are employed in a law firm with 251+ attorneys:
Stanford: 87.4%
Berkeley: 84.1%
Hastings: 29.32%
NALP average: 26.5%
Golden Gate: 6%

Percentage of graduates as a whole that are in a law firm with 251+ attorneys:
Stanford: 48.5%
Berkeley: 47.6%
Hastings: 16%
Golden Gate: 2%

Clerkships (out of all graduates reported):
Stanford: 31%
Berkeley: 9.39%
Hastings: 4.5%
Golden Gate: 0.7%

Just to reiterate, no one in this thread implied or stated that there was a linear relationship between rankings and employment success/failure.

I think it's fair to say that no one on TLS would expect #42 to closely mirror #3, but to say it's "way more" like the Tier 4 is downright misleading and irresponsible.


I mean, I see the point you're trying to make, but this data backs up the Campos/Romo claim pretty well.

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MTal
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Re: How many people are still applying to TTT and TTTT?

Postby MTal » Tue Jan 24, 2012 12:31 am

Splitbrain just pretty much shot himself in the face with that post.

acrossthelake
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Re: How many people are still applying to TTT and TTTT?

Postby acrossthelake » Tue Jan 24, 2012 12:35 am

Tiago Splitter wrote:
I mean, I see the point you're trying to make, but this data backs up the Campos/Romo claim pretty well.


Yeah Hastings's prospects seem closer to Golden Gate's than Berkeley's with what you posted.

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splitbrain
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Re: How many people are still applying to TTT and TTTT?

Postby splitbrain » Tue Jan 24, 2012 12:35 am

MTal wrote:# 42 is much closer to T4 even when using the numbers that you yourself provided.


Very insightful, Aqualad.

I had a problem with the conjecture, so now there's actual facts to discuss.

Personally, I see deeper meaning in the numbers than your simple analysis of "THAT NUMBER IS CLOSER TO THE SMALLER NUMBER THAN THE BIGGER NUMBER," but to each his/her own.

I'm not sure why Aqualad thinks I was arguing that the statement, in itself, was false...

Maybe Aqualad can explain? Hmm, MTal?




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