How many people are still applying to TTT and TTTT?

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Grizz
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Re: How many people are still applying to TTT and TTTT?

Postby Grizz » Sun Jan 22, 2012 5:19 am

splitbrain wrote:
Paul Campos wrote:Probably more than half of the people graduating from law school right now are not going to have real legal careers. They'll wash out of the profession altogether within a few years of graduating. This includes significant numbers of people going to the hallowed T-14. If you don't have a job at graduation (something that right now is true for maybe 30% of the class in the bottom half of the T-14) there's a serious risk you'll never get a real legal job. And people who have Big Law jobs at graduation are far from home free. A lot of those people won't have those jobs three to five years down the line, and they're likely to end as unemployed lawyers. Any halfway decent job they apply for will feature dozens and often hundreds of applicants, many of whom will be as or more qualified than they are.


[Citation needed]


It's a pretty well known fact that law schools graduate 45,000, and that there are about 25,000 entry level legal jobs, not all of which are permanent or full time, brah

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splitbrain
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Re: How many people are still applying to TTT and TTTT?

Postby splitbrain » Sun Jan 22, 2012 5:25 am

Grizz wrote:
splitbrain wrote:
Paul Campos wrote:Probably more than half of the people graduating from law school right now are not going to have real legal careers. They'll wash out of the profession altogether within a few years of graduating. This includes significant numbers of people going to the hallowed T-14. If you don't have a job at graduation (something that right now is true for maybe 30% of the class in the bottom half of the T-14) there's a serious risk you'll never get a real legal job. And people who have Big Law jobs at graduation are far from home free. A lot of those people won't have those jobs three to five years down the line, and they're likely to end as unemployed lawyers. Any halfway decent job they apply for will feature dozens and often hundreds of applicants, many of whom will be as or more qualified than they are.


[Citation needed]


It's a pretty well known fact that law schools graduate 45,000, and that there are about 25,000 entry level legal jobs, not all of which are permanent or full time, brah


Link?

flcath
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Re: How many people are still applying to TTT and TTTT?

Postby flcath » Sun Jan 22, 2012 5:26 am

Grizz wrote:
splitbrain wrote:
Paul Campos wrote:Probably more than half of the people graduating from law school right now are not going to have real legal careers. They'll wash out of the profession altogether within a few years of graduating. This includes significant numbers of people going to the hallowed T-14. If you don't have a job at graduation (something that right now is true for maybe 30% of the class in the bottom half of the T-14) there's a serious risk you'll never get a real legal job. And people who have Big Law jobs at graduation are far from home free. A lot of those people won't have those jobs three to five years down the line, and they're likely to end as unemployed lawyers. Any halfway decent job they apply for will feature dozens and often hundreds of applicants, many of whom will be as or more qualified than they are.


[Citation needed]


It's a pretty well known fact that law schools graduate 45,000, and that there are about 25,000 entry level legal jobs, not all of which are permanent or full time, brah

I thought the posh number to quote was 36,000.

jared6180
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Re: How many people are still applying to TTT and TTTT?

Postby jared6180 » Sun Jan 22, 2012 1:02 pm

Grizz wrote:
It's a pretty well known fact that law schools graduate 45,000, and that there are about 25,000 entry level legal jobs, not all of which are permanent or full time, brah


Having TLS as a source sight is a pretty terrible source. Sorry, nobody will just take your word for it because you are so full of well known facts that even you, to this point, can't substantiate.

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MrPapagiorgio
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Re: How many people are still applying to TTT and TTTT?

Postby MrPapagiorgio » Sun Jan 22, 2012 1:09 pm

jared6180 wrote:
Grizz wrote:
It's a pretty well known fact that law schools graduate 45,000, and that there are about 25,000 entry level legal jobs, not all of which are permanent or full time, brah


Having TLS as a source sight is a pretty terrible source. Sorry, nobody will just take your word for it because you are so full of well known facts that even you, to this point, can't substantiate.

Nah man everybody knows that if enough people repeat something, everybody accepts it as fact.

Seriously though, the TLS groupthink mentality forces everybody to spread those "facts" because if they don't beat the drum of everybody else, they are shitted on. In the almost 2 years I've been on this site, I've never seen the 45,000/35,000 (now apparently 25,000) be supported by hard data.

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bk1
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Re: How many people are still applying to TTT and TTTT?

Postby bk1 » Sun Jan 22, 2012 1:18 pm

Fuck off you motherfucking herpderps.

rayiner wrote:The 30,000 figure comes from this article: http://www.law.com/jsp/nlj/PubArticleNL ... 7904889498, specifically this figure:

Image

Note this article is from April 2008, meaning the data is for C/O 2007. Ie: the height of the boom, before biglaw cut its hiring in half, before small firms cut hiring to zero, before cash-strapped state and local governments instituted hiring freezes, etc.

69% of graduates get a job in an NLJ250 firm, a small firm, a clerkship, government, or public interest. The government/public interest categories aren't necessary legal jobs, but are probably on the whole legal jobs (not necessarily paying). The other categories, business and academia are a joke. Business = Starbucks barista.

So yeah, roughly about 30,000 jobs for 45,000 graduates, during the boom.

Now... one of my friends is interested in the Cook County (Chicago) PD's office and was informed that they had an entire pile of Harvard/Yale resumes to look through and recruiting season hasn't even started. PD, DA jobs are insanely competitive right now. They've always been competitive in major cities, because they're considered prestigious PI, but even in bumfuck areas they make you eligible for 10-year PI loan forgiveness. As for small firms, they're hurting in the recession and just not hiring.

So if you think you'll just fall into a small firm or PD job if you don't get biglaw...


http://www.top-law-schools.com/forums/v ... 3&t=138221 (Note: The article is now behind a LexisNexis paywall.)

Grizz might even be fucking generous with that 25k figure.

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Grizz
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Re: How many people are still applying to TTT and TTTT?

Postby Grizz » Sun Jan 22, 2012 1:19 pm

Thanks BK, that was the exact poast I was looking for.

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MrPapagiorgio
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Re: How many people are still applying to TTT and TTTT?

Postby MrPapagiorgio » Sun Jan 22, 2012 1:22 pm

Very well. I retract.

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bk1
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Re: How many people are still applying to TTT and TTTT?

Postby bk1 » Sun Jan 22, 2012 1:26 pm

Grizz wrote:Thanks BK, that was the exact poast I was looking for.


--ImageRemoved--

Paul Campos
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Re: How many people are still applying to TTT and TTTT?

Postby Paul Campos » Sun Jan 22, 2012 2:39 pm

Per NALP, 25,654 out of 44,258 2010 graduates had full-time jobs requiring JD degrees nine months after graduation.

http://www.nalp.org/uploads/NationalSum ... ls2010.pdf


That's 58% of all grads. Keep in mind that "full time jobs requiring a law degree" include:

(1) Temp work. A six-week doc review gig counts, as does a six month "clerkship" in five-person law office.

(2) Unpaid government and non-profit internships, i.e., "jobs" that don't feature actual pay.

(3) "Jobs" created by law schools to pump their employment stats. This represented more than 4% of all such jobs in 2010 and has gone up a lot since.

Don't count this stuff and you're down in the 40% range.

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Gail
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Re: How many people are still applying to TTT and TTTT?

Postby Gail » Sun Jan 22, 2012 3:55 pm

What do you do with 160k in debt and no legal job?

Really, what can you possibly do?

Paul Campos
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Re: How many people are still applying to TTT and TTTT?

Postby Paul Campos » Sun Jan 22, 2012 4:01 pm

Gail wrote:What do you do with 160k in debt and no legal job?

Really, what can you possibly do?


What you can't do is declare bankruptcy, as educational loans are non-dischargeable.

What people do is find any job they can, if they can, and then watch the debt pile up. At least federal loan payments are now subject to IBR, but employing that means people will have a giant unsecured ever-growing pile of debt, which precludes them from getting loans for things like houses and cars.

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Re: How many people are still applying to TTT and TTTT?

Postby snehpets » Sun Jan 22, 2012 4:14 pm

I applied to a TTT. I'm not going, but it doesn't do terribly regionally (well, as terrible as you would think). I applied for personal life reasons and though I'm in at a better school if those personal reasons still existed I would consider going even after reading all the stuff on TLS about TTTs. However, I would probably feel differently if they hadn't given me a full-ride.

I think some of the TTT hatred/disdain comes from people who are going for big law. Obviously it's stupid to go to a TTT for big law. If you've got a good scholarship, it's an ok regional school, you don't want big law, and worst case scenario you end up doing what everyone on TLS would tell you to do anyway (look for a job with your undergrad degree), I don't think it's a terrible idea. Not the best, but not the worst.

I agree that it's surprising how many people they get to attend at sticker. Still though, not all TTTs are equal from a regional point of view. Obviously the California/NY schools are bad choices because of the markets that they're in, but there are honestly a significant number of small firms in Texas who would take a Texas Tech grad over a Georgetown grad because ties/alumni loyalty are both so strong here.

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Extension_Cord
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Re: How many people are still applying to TTT and TTTT?

Postby Extension_Cord » Sun Jan 22, 2012 4:39 pm

I got to a TTT, but with my scholly + income its pretty much free. I was very conscious of the legal education disadvantages. I was accepted into T2 schools, but I figured T3 with between 0-20k debt vs. T2 at 180k was an easy choice. I have a place to stay and a PT legal job near the T3 which makes it bearable. I'm hoping my current employer will offer me a position when I graduate.

I thought long and hard about the missing income even if I do work PT. I'm probably giving up 50k after tax while I'm in law school. This is a BIG DEAL that I don't think most of us realize. If I'm giving that up working PT, thats atleast 100k for most people + Tuition + Room and Board.

Even in my current situation it was a TOUGH decision, and I don't know for sure whether it will pay off in the future.

I know some people at my school that have student loan debt from undergrad, are not working, are spending 35k a year in tuition + whatever they pay for room and board and are in the bottom 1/4 of the class. If I were in their shoes I wouldn't have gone to law school on the gamble of being in the top 1/4.

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MTal
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Re: How many people are still applying to TTT and TTTT?

Postby MTal » Sun Jan 22, 2012 4:45 pm

The correct answer to the OP is: enough to keep their classrooms chock full of the next batch of sucke...err, students, regardless of their legal/academic aptitude.

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Re: How many people are still applying to TTT and TTTT?

Postby snehpets » Sun Jan 22, 2012 4:54 pm

MTal wrote:The correct answer to the OP is: enough to keep their classrooms chock full of the next batch of sucke...err, students, regardless of their legal/academic aptitude.


MTal, under what circumstances would you consider going to law school a good decision? Surely you don't claim that no one should go to law school ever.

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MrPapagiorgio
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Re: How many people are still applying to TTT and TTTT?

Postby MrPapagiorgio » Sun Jan 22, 2012 5:04 pm

snehpets wrote:
MTal wrote:The correct answer to the OP is: enough to keep their classrooms chock full of the next batch of sucke...err, students, regardless of their legal/academic aptitude.


MTal, under what circumstances would you consider going to law school a good decision? Surely you don't claim that no one should go to law school ever.

Just read his post history. We don't need to torpedo another thread with a discussion of MTal.

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Re: How many people are still applying to TTT and TTTT?

Postby snehpets » Sun Jan 22, 2012 5:13 pm

MrPapagiorgio wrote:
snehpets wrote:
MTal wrote:The correct answer to the OP is: enough to keep their classrooms chock full of the next batch of sucke...err, students, regardless of their legal/academic aptitude.


MTal, under what circumstances would you consider going to law school a good decision? Surely you don't claim that no one should go to law school ever.

Just read his post history. We don't need to torpedo another thread with a discussion of MTal.


good point. i'm kind of curious, but not enough to ruin this post. disregard!

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MTal
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Re: How many people are still applying to TTT and TTTT?

Postby MTal » Sun Jan 22, 2012 7:24 pm

snehpets wrote:
MTal wrote:The correct answer to the OP is: enough to keep their classrooms chock full of the next batch of sucke...err, students, regardless of their legal/academic aptitude.


MTal, under what circumstances would you consider going to law school a good decision? Surely you don't claim that no one should go to law school ever.


H/Y/S sticker, T14 with partial scholarship, free ride anywhere else. Otherwise, don't bother.

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romothesavior
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Re: How many people are still applying to TTT and TTTT?

Postby romothesavior » Sun Jan 22, 2012 7:34 pm

jared6180 wrote:
Grizz wrote:
It's a pretty well known fact that law schools graduate 45,000, and that there are about 25,000 entry level legal jobs, not all of which are permanent or full time, brah


Having TLS as a source sight is a pretty terrible source. Sorry, nobody will just take your word for it because you are so full of well known facts that even you, to this point, can't substantiate.

Why don't you shut the fuck up and read what Campos and bk posted.

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romothesavior
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Re: How many people are still applying to TTT and TTTT?

Postby romothesavior » Sun Jan 22, 2012 7:39 pm

snehpets wrote:I applied to a TTT. I'm not going, but it doesn't do terribly regionally (well, as terrible as you would think). I applied for personal life reasons and though I'm in at a better school if those personal reasons still existed I would consider going even after reading all the stuff on TLS about TTTs. However, I would probably feel differently if they hadn't given me a full-ride.

I think some of the TTT hatred/disdain comes from people who are going for big law. Obviously it's stupid to go to a TTT for big law. If you've got a good scholarship, it's an ok regional school, you don't want big law, and worst case scenario you end up doing what everyone on TLS would tell you to do anyway (look for a job with your undergrad degree), I don't think it's a terrible idea. Not the best, but not the worst.

I agree that it's surprising how many people they get to attend at sticker. Still though, not all TTTs are equal from a regional point of view. Obviously the California/NY schools are bad choices because of the markets that they're in, but there are honestly a significant number of small firms in Texas who would take a Texas Tech grad over a Georgetown grad because ties/alumni loyalty are both so strong here.

Sure, not all TTTs are created equal. But you are DRASTICALLY underestimating the shittiness of the market. A freaking law professor just told you how bad the market is. And he gave you hard data to back it up. Some stupid anecdote about a shitty Texas firm preferring a Texas Tech grad over a Georgetown grad means literally nothing whatsoever in any way shape or form, because tons of students at both schools (and probably the vast majority at TTU) are going to be funemployed or underemployed. I am curious where you are going, and I really hope you come to the realization that there are no jobs before you get to law school.

Bottom line is this: 1) T14, 2) T20-30 with MASSIVE scholarship, 3) full ride somewhere, or 4) don't go. Period.

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splitbrain
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Re: How many people are still applying to TTT and TTTT?

Postby splitbrain » Sun Jan 22, 2012 7:49 pm

bk1 wrote:viewtopic.php?f=23&t=138221 (Note: The article is now behind a LexisNexis paywall.)

Grizz might even be fucking generous with that 25k figure.


--ImageRemoved--
Angry Link thanks you for the link.

snehpets
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Re: How many people are still applying to TTT and TTTT?

Postby snehpets » Sun Jan 22, 2012 8:05 pm

romothesavior wrote:
snehpets wrote:I applied to a TTT. I'm not going, but it doesn't do terribly regionally (well, as terrible as you would think). I applied for personal life reasons and though I'm in at a better school if those personal reasons still existed I would consider going even after reading all the stuff on TLS about TTTs. However, I would probably feel differently if they hadn't given me a full-ride.

I think some of the TTT hatred/disdain comes from people who are going for big law. Obviously it's stupid to go to a TTT for big law. If you've got a good scholarship, it's an ok regional school, you don't want big law, and worst case scenario you end up doing what everyone on TLS would tell you to do anyway (look for a job with your undergrad degree), I don't think it's a terrible idea. Not the best, but not the worst.

I agree that it's surprising how many people they get to attend at sticker. Still though, not all TTTs are equal from a regional point of view. Obviously the California/NY schools are bad choices because of the markets that they're in, but there are honestly a significant number of small firms in Texas who would take a Texas Tech grad over a Georgetown grad because ties/alumni loyalty are both so strong here.

Sure, not all TTTs are created equal. But you are DRASTICALLY underestimating the shittiness of the market. A freaking law professor just told you how bad the market is. And he gave you hard data to back it up. Some stupid anecdote about a shitty Texas firm preferring a Texas Tech grad over a Georgetown grad means literally nothing whatsoever in any way shape or form, because tons of students at both schools (and probably the vast majority at TTU) are going to be funemployed or underemployed. I am curious where you are going, and I really hope you come to the realization that there are no jobs before you get to law school.

Bottom line is this: 1) T14, 2) T20-30 with MASSIVE scholarship, 3) full ride somewhere, or 4) don't go. Period.


Lol, not trying to make you angry/appalled. People get so mad on this site. It's not that big of a deal. I wasn't trying to mislead anyone or encourage anyone to pay sticker at a TTT. If you read my post, I implied that I thought it was okay to pick a TTT over a better school WITH a good (presumably full-ride at a TTT) scholarship. I think you'll find that this fits in your bottom line. I'm not even advocating doing that. The question the OP asked was basically WHY people did that, or would consider it. I answered...

Also, I considered pointing out that obviously my "evidence" was anecdotal in my OP, but I wasn't trying to present it as evidence. The reasons people pick or apply to schools ARE anecdotal. I figured that would be obvious. Apparently not.

I'm fully aware of how "bad the market is," thanks. That doesn't mean there aren't some TTTs that are better than others. I'm not saying ALL TTTs ARE AMAZING GO THERE BC ALL YOU NEED IS A LAW DEGREE FOR SUCCESS!!!!! I'm saying that if I had a personal reason to go to Tech, a full-ride, and a desire to go to law school I don't think going there would be that big of a deal. It does reasonably well regionally, and I wouldn't have any debt afterwards anyway. This really shouldn't have been a controversial post.

tl;dr: I'm not encouraging anyone to make any stupid decisions. I'm telling you that I would have considered going to Tech for personal reasons on a full-ride. I'm not doing it, so I don't need anyone to talk me out of ruining my life or whatever you think would happen, or yelling at me for being the one dissenting voice in a crowd of people telling every new poster how dumb they are for considering law school.

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bk1
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Re: How many people are still applying to TTT and TTTT?

Postby bk1 » Sun Jan 22, 2012 9:14 pm

Paul Campos wrote:Per NALP, 25,654 out of 44,258 2010 graduates had full-time jobs requiring JD degrees nine months after graduation.

http://www.nalp.org/uploads/NationalSum ... ls2010.pdf


That's 58% of all grads. Keep in mind that "full time jobs requiring a law degree" include:

(1) Temp work. A six-week doc review gig counts, as does a six month "clerkship" in five-person law office.

(2) Unpaid government and non-profit internships, i.e., "jobs" that don't feature actual pay.

(3) "Jobs" created by law schools to pump their employment stats. This represented more than 4% of all such jobs in 2010 and has gone up a lot since.

Don't count this stuff and you're down in the 40% range.


Ah, this link is even better.

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Tiago Splitter
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Re: How many people are still applying to TTT and TTTT?

Postby Tiago Splitter » Sun Jan 22, 2012 9:25 pm

MTal wrote:
snehpets wrote:
MTal wrote:The correct answer to the OP is: enough to keep their classrooms chock full of the next batch of sucke...err, students, regardless of their legal/academic aptitude.


MTal, under what circumstances would you consider going to law school a good decision? Surely you don't claim that no one should go to law school ever.


H/Y/S sticker, T14 with partial scholarship, free ride anywhere else. Otherwise, don't bother.


Your move professor Campos. Where do you draw the line sir?




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