NPR Exposes the Law School Scam

(Applications Advice, Letters of Recommendation . . . )
User avatar
MTal
Posts: 854
Joined: Tue Dec 11, 2007 6:47 pm

Re: NPR Exposes the Law School Scam

Postby MTal » Wed Jan 18, 2012 12:32 pm

hyakku wrote:
I'm still confused at why so many of you on TLS find it necessary to show people the errors of their ways.
200k in debt plus no job prospects = utterly life destroying on a national scale. Are you dense?

User avatar
mattviphky
Posts: 1117
Joined: Fri Jan 28, 2011 6:43 pm

Re: NPR Exposes the Law School Scam

Postby mattviphky » Wed Jan 18, 2012 12:36 pm

TemporarySaint wrote:Except that rankings are a useless barometer of the actual worth of a law school. Nobody cares about rankings when people on law review at a school like Kent can't get jobs. It's not just ITE either. The bubble helped to cover up existing problems in the system, but there were still individuals like my uncle who graduated from Kent IP secure, above median, and with good WE still struggled to find jobs pre-collapse. There are just simply way too many law schools and way too many lawyers.

Also, the argument that rural areas wouldn't have lawyers if we substantially cut down the number of law schools is silly. Those areas don't have med schools or dental schools, but still have dentists and doctors. State to state contract programs effectively provide education for kids without schools in their states and fill needed positions in their states. The same thing could easily be done with law schools.


+1...although, there are scarcity problems with doctors in rural areas.

User avatar
NYC Law
Posts: 1569
Joined: Thu May 26, 2011 3:33 pm

Re: NPR Exposes the Law School Scam

Postby NYC Law » Wed Jan 18, 2012 12:37 pm

Here -

NY (Biggest Market, should have the most law schools)
Keep: CLS, NYU, Fordham, even Brooklyn and Cardozo. Keep Syracuse for N. NY, SUNY-B for West. Cornell. Even CUNY (cheap, does well with PI).
Gone: NYLS, Hofstra, St. Johns, Albany, Pace, Touro

CA
Keep: UCLA, Berkeley, Stanford, USC, Davis, Hastings, Irvine, Loyola, Pepperdine, USD
Gone: Santa Clara Law, U San Francisco, McGeorge, Southwestern, Chapman, Whittier, Golden Gate, Cal Western, TJLS

FL
Keep: UF, FSU, Stetson, Miami, FIU (Cheap, might as well)
Gone: Barry, New Cooley, Ave Maria, Nova, Florida Coastal, Florida A&M, St. Thomas

IL
Keep: UChi, NU, UIUC, Chicago-Kent
Gone:Loyola, Northern Illinois, Southern Illinois, John Marshall, DePaul

Also get rid of John Marshall (GA), Cooley, Regent, Liberty, and some other random TTTTs.

That alone would solve many of the problems.
Most of the shittiest schools are in urban areas, we don't have to fuck with U Montana or whatever.

User avatar
hyakku
Posts: 604
Joined: Sun Sep 18, 2011 9:35 pm

Re: NPR Exposes the Law School Scam

Postby hyakku » Wed Jan 18, 2012 12:43 pm

MTal wrote:
hyakku wrote:
I'm still confused at why so many of you on TLS find it necessary to show people the errors of their ways.
200k in debt plus no job prospects = utterly life destroying on a national scale. Are you dense?


Ok, but that doesn't explain why you feel it necessary to save people from this fate in suchna mundane way.

And tonthe other guy, I mentioned kents ranking because they suggested just leaving the t50, Kent is only around 10 places lower, so it's not like his example would likely solve his problems more than just not reading a thread.

User avatar
mattviphky
Posts: 1117
Joined: Fri Jan 28, 2011 6:43 pm

Re: NPR Exposes the Law School Scam

Postby mattviphky » Wed Jan 18, 2012 12:59 pm

Just did a little bit of digging (which is much harder without wikipedia). But between St. Thomas, Barry, Florida Coastal, John Marshall Chicago, and Cooley, over 8,000 students are going to be graduating with major problems.

User avatar
NYC Law
Posts: 1569
Joined: Thu May 26, 2011 3:33 pm

Re: NPR Exposes the Law School Scam

Postby NYC Law » Wed Jan 18, 2012 1:04 pm

mattviphky wrote:Just did a little bit of digging (which is much harder without wikipedia). But between St. Thomas, Barry, Florida Coastal, John Marshall Chicago, and Cooley, over 8,000 students are going to be graduating with major problems.


Yeah FL is pretty ridiculous. A year or two ago there were like 60 SA positions for the entire state, and there are 12 law schools...

MrAnon
Posts: 1615
Joined: Wed Aug 25, 2010 9:08 pm

Re: NPR Exposes the Law School Scam

Postby MrAnon » Wed Jan 18, 2012 1:07 pm

NYC Law wrote:
mattviphky wrote:Just did a little bit of digging (which is much harder without wikipedia). But between St. Thomas, Barry, Florida Coastal, John Marshall Chicago, and Cooley, over 8,000 students are going to be graduating with major problems.


Yeah FL is pretty ridiculous. A year or two ago there were like 60 SA positions for the entire state, and there are 12 law schools...


Why would you say Fordham is a safe school? didnt you post that you can't find 2L employment? How is someone at FIU in any different shoes right now?

User avatar
mattviphky
Posts: 1117
Joined: Fri Jan 28, 2011 6:43 pm

Re: NPR Exposes the Law School Scam

Postby mattviphky » Wed Jan 18, 2012 1:36 pm

NYC Law wrote:Here -

NY (Biggest Market, should have the most law schools)
Keep: CLS, NYU, Fordham, even Brooklyn and Cardozo. Keep Syracuse for N. NY, SUNY-B for West. Cornell. Even CUNY (cheap, does well with PI).
Gone: NYLS, Hofstra, St. Johns, Albany, Pace, Touro

CA
Keep: UCLA, Berkeley, Stanford, USC, Davis, Hastings, Irvine, Loyola, Pepperdine, USD
Gone: Santa Clara Law, U San Francisco, McGeorge, Southwestern, Chapman, Whittier, Golden Gate, Cal Western, TJLS

FL
Keep: UF, FSU, Stetson, Miami, FIU (Cheap, might as well)
Gone: Barry, New Cooley, Ave Maria, Nova, Florida Coastal, Florida A&M, St. Thomas

IL
Keep: UChi, NU, UIUC, Chicago-Kent
Gone:Loyola, Northern Illinois, Southern Illinois, John Marshall, DePaul

Also get rid of John Marshall (GA), Cooley, Regent, Liberty, and some other random TTTTs.

That alone would solve many of the problems.
Most of the shittiest schools are in urban areas, we don't have to fuck with U Montana or whatever.



I think that a lot of this stress on the market and on the students could be fixed if the schools just admitted less people and had smaller classes. I don;t care if there are 6 schools in chicago and that they all have classes of only 100 people. But schools will probably never bite at that, and for the fun of the game I'll give my 2 cents. I guess I agree with Chhicago, except keep Loyola. I don't see the problem with NIU and SIU. They are very cheap schools with small classes (like 100 people) and they are a steady supply to rural areas that would be underserved by the glut of Chicago student. I don't like how you allowed SUNY-B and Syracuse to live, but let SIU and NIU die.

But Cooley has 3,500 students. The John Marshalls have like 1500 students combined.

User avatar
NYC Law
Posts: 1569
Joined: Thu May 26, 2011 3:33 pm

Re: NPR Exposes the Law School Scam

Postby NYC Law » Wed Jan 18, 2012 1:43 pm

mattviphky wrote:I think that a lot of this stress on the market and on the students could be fixed if the schools just admitted less people and had smaller classes. I don;t care if there are 6 schools in chicago and that they all have classes of only 100 people. But schools will probably never bite at that, and for the fun of the game I'll give my 2 cents. I guess I agree with Chhicago, except keep Loyola. I don't see the problem with NIU and SIU. They are very cheap schools with small classes (like 100 people) and they are a steady supply to rural areas that would be underserved by the glut of Chicago student. I don't like how you allowed SUNY-B and Syracuse to live, but let SIU and NIU die.

But Cooley has 3,500 students. The John Marshalls have like 1500 students combined.


Mostly because I don't know anything about IL schools.

MrAnon wrote:Why would you say Fordham is a safe school? didnt you post that you can't find 2L employment? How is someone at FIU in any different shoes right now?


I did not, I'm a 1L.

User avatar
mattviphky
Posts: 1117
Joined: Fri Jan 28, 2011 6:43 pm

Re: NPR Exposes the Law School Scam

Postby mattviphky » Wed Jan 18, 2012 1:46 pm

I'm still thinking about capped classes. What if an incoming class was capped at 200 students?

MrAnon
Posts: 1615
Joined: Wed Aug 25, 2010 9:08 pm

Re: NPR Exposes the Law School Scam

Postby MrAnon » Wed Jan 18, 2012 1:46 pm

NYC Law wrote:
mattviphky wrote:I think that a lot of this stress on the market and on the students could be fixed if the schools just admitted less people and had smaller classes. I don;t care if there are 6 schools in chicago and that they all have classes of only 100 people. But schools will probably never bite at that, and for the fun of the game I'll give my 2 cents. I guess I agree with Chhicago, except keep Loyola. I don't see the problem with NIU and SIU. They are very cheap schools with small classes (like 100 people) and they are a steady supply to rural areas that would be underserved by the glut of Chicago student. I don't like how you allowed SUNY-B and Syracuse to live, but let SIU and NIU die.

But Cooley has 3,500 students. The John Marshalls have like 1500 students combined.


Mostly because I don't know anything about IL schools.

MrAnon wrote:Why would you say Fordham is a safe school? didnt you post that you can't find 2L employment? How is someone at FIU in any different shoes right now?


I did not, I'm a 1L.


Okay sorry read too quick.

User avatar
Guchster
Posts: 1205
Joined: Wed Apr 06, 2011 9:38 pm

Re: NPR Exposes the Law School Scam

Postby Guchster » Wed Jan 18, 2012 1:51 pm

NYC Law wrote:
mattviphky wrote:I think that a lot of this stress on the market and on the students could be fixed if the schools just admitted less people and had smaller classes. I don;t care if there are 6 schools in chicago and that they all have classes of only 100 people. But schools will probably never bite at that, and for the fun of the game I'll give my 2 cents. I guess I agree with Chhicago, except keep Loyola. I don't see the problem with NIU and SIU. They are very cheap schools with small classes (like 100 people) and they are a steady supply to rural areas that would be underserved by the glut of Chicago student. I don't like how you allowed SUNY-B and Syracuse to live, but let SIU and NIU die.

But Cooley has 3,500 students. The John Marshalls have like 1500 students combined.


Mostly because I don't know anything about IL schools.

MrAnon wrote:Why would you say Fordham is a safe school? didnt you post that you can't find 2L employment? How is someone at FIU in any different shoes right now?


I did not, I'm a 1L.


Fordham is a pretty safe school, esp. if you're top 5% in your class :P

Dr.Guano, the pesky 2L at Fordham, should come troll on here to break down Fordham's stats for you if you'd like.

User avatar
NYC Law
Posts: 1569
Joined: Thu May 26, 2011 3:33 pm

Re: NPR Exposes the Law School Scam

Postby NYC Law » Wed Jan 18, 2012 1:53 pm

Guchster wrote:
NYC Law wrote:
mattviphky wrote:I think that a lot of this stress on the market and on the students could be fixed if the schools just admitted less people and had smaller classes. I don;t care if there are 6 schools in chicago and that they all have classes of only 100 people. But schools will probably never bite at that, and for the fun of the game I'll give my 2 cents. I guess I agree with Chhicago, except keep Loyola. I don't see the problem with NIU and SIU. They are very cheap schools with small classes (like 100 people) and they are a steady supply to rural areas that would be underserved by the glut of Chicago student. I don't like how you allowed SUNY-B and Syracuse to live, but let SIU and NIU die.

But Cooley has 3,500 students. The John Marshalls have like 1500 students combined.


Mostly because I don't know anything about IL schools.

MrAnon wrote:Why would you say Fordham is a safe school? didnt you post that you can't find 2L employment? How is someone at FIU in any different shoes right now?


I did not, I'm a 1L.


Fordham is a pretty safe school, esp. if you're top 5% in your class :P

Dr.Guano, the pesky 2L at Fordham, should come troll on here to break down Fordham's stats for you if you'd like.


Haha and I never said Fordham is a 'safe' school currently. The idea is that if you get rid of the glut the other schools will generally have better prospects. There probably won't be a huge change on the Biglaw front since the glut schools send like 1-5 people tops to biglaw, but at least the PI and Gov't jobs would open up.

lebroniousjames
Posts: 116
Joined: Fri Jul 16, 2010 10:21 pm

Re: NPR Exposes the Law School Scam

Postby lebroniousjames » Wed Jan 18, 2012 2:12 pm

InGoodFaith wrote:What the hell is a three figure salary?



i was listening to the npr audio clip while scrolling down the thread, and, in some strange occurrence, I simultaneously reached your post just as I heard the girl talking about her "three figure salary". the blending of my instinctual "wtf???" reaction and your similar question led me to laugh and spit OJ all over my shirt. i missed my computer, though, so it was well worth it. well played

User avatar
20130312
Posts: 3842
Joined: Wed Nov 09, 2011 8:53 pm

Re: NPR Exposes the Law School Scam

Postby 20130312 » Wed Jan 18, 2012 3:37 pm

lebroniousjames wrote:
InGoodFaith wrote:What the hell is a three figure salary?



i was listening to the npr audio clip while scrolling down the thread, and, in some strange occurrence, I simultaneously reached your post just as I heard the girl talking about her "three figure salary". the blending of my instinctual "wtf???" reaction and your similar question led me to laugh and spit OJ all over my shirt. i missed my computer, though, so it was well worth it. well played


Haha, glad I could be of service

joan_mgl
Posts: 9
Joined: Thu Sep 15, 2011 1:15 pm

Re: NPR Exposes the Law School Scam

Postby joan_mgl » Sun Jan 22, 2012 6:47 pm

.
Last edited by joan_mgl on Thu Aug 16, 2012 2:49 pm, edited 1 time in total.

User avatar
Gail
Posts: 977
Joined: Thu Nov 10, 2011 11:11 am

Re: NPR Exposes the Law School Scam

Postby Gail » Sun Jan 22, 2012 7:37 pm

mattviphky wrote:
NYC Law wrote:Here -

NY (Biggest Market, should have the most law schools)
Keep: CLS, NYU, Fordham, even Brooklyn and Cardozo. Keep Syracuse for N. NY, SUNY-B for West. Cornell. Even CUNY (cheap, does well with PI).
Gone: NYLS, Hofstra, St. Johns, Albany, Pace, Touro

CA
Keep: UCLA, Berkeley, Stanford, USC, Davis, Hastings, Irvine, Loyola, Pepperdine, USD
Gone: Santa Clara Law, U San Francisco, McGeorge, Southwestern, Chapman, Whittier, Golden Gate, Cal Western, TJLS

FL
Keep: UF, FSU, Stetson, Miami, FIU (Cheap, might as well)
Gone: Barry, New Cooley, Ave Maria, Nova, Florida Coastal, Florida A&M, St. Thomas

IL
Keep: UChi, NU, UIUC, Chicago-Kent
Gone:Loyola, Northern Illinois, Southern Illinois, John Marshall, DePaul

Also get rid of John Marshall (GA), Cooley, Regent, Liberty, and some other random TTTTs.

That alone would solve many of the problems.
Most of the shittiest schools are in urban areas, we don't have to fuck with U Montana or whatever.



I think that a lot of this stress on the market and on the students could be fixed if the schools just admitted less people and had smaller classes. I don;t care if there are 6 schools in chicago and that they all have classes of only 100 people. But schools will probably never bite at that, and for the fun of the game I'll give my 2 cents. I guess I agree with Chhicago, except keep Loyola. I don't see the problem with NIU and SIU. They are very cheap schools with small classes (like 100 people) and they are a steady supply to rural areas that would be underserved by the glut of Chicago student. I don't like how you allowed SUNY-B and Syracuse to live, but let SIU and NIU die.

But Cooley has 3,500 students. The John Marshalls have like 1500 students combined.


I actually think that he's right on about SIU and NIU and I live in Illinois.

User avatar
Gail
Posts: 977
Joined: Thu Nov 10, 2011 11:11 am

Re: NPR Exposes the Law School Scam

Postby Gail » Sun Jan 22, 2012 7:40 pm

joan_mgl wrote:Just like 250,000$ a year doesn't make Elie Mystal rich,http://www.joshuakennon.com/elie-mystal-says-250000-doesnt-make-him-rich/



Reading this made me really, really angry.

User avatar
romothesavior
Posts: 14772
Joined: Fri Jun 26, 2009 4:29 pm

Re: NPR Exposes the Law School Scam

Postby romothesavior » Sun Jan 22, 2012 7:45 pm

Gail wrote:I actually think that he's right on about SIU and NIU and I live in Illinois.

SIU and NIU aren't great schools, but they are dirt cheap and have niche markets. I wouldn't advise anyone go there without a full ride and strong ties to northern (non-Chicago) or southern Illinois, but in the pantheon of shitty law schools, they are alright. I actually have recommended to friends to take scholarships to SIU over going to expensive T1s and T2s in other states, but they don't listen.

User avatar
splitbrain
Posts: 656
Joined: Tue Nov 29, 2011 11:38 pm

Re: NPR Exposes the Law School Scam

Postby splitbrain » Sun Jan 22, 2012 8:00 pm

Gail wrote:
joan_mgl wrote:Just like 250,000$ a year doesn't make Elie Mystal rich,http://www.joshuakennon.com/elie-mystal-says-250000-doesnt-make-him-rich/



Reading this made me really, really angry.


Ditto.

Kinda like some years ago when I was unemployed and a "friend" at the time was complaining about how the $70k he was making (with no college education, mind you) was not enough to afford a ranch house, horses, and a new car.

Nothing more to say than...
--ImageRemoved--

timbs4339
Posts: 2733
Joined: Sat Apr 02, 2011 12:19 pm

Re: NPR Exposes the Law School Scam

Postby timbs4339 » Sun Jan 22, 2012 8:04 pm

Capping or cutting the number of students is simply not going to work within the current structure of legal education. There are too many professors with too high salaries and nice perks, too many administrative personnel, high facilities costs, and for schools connected with universities, a "tax" by the parent uni. There is also the need to give out large finaid awards to attract top students and keep the LSAT/GPA numbers up. If even one of these is cut they all go. For example, if you cut professor salaries and increase teaching loads, profs are going to leave, you'll get hammered in the USNWR reputation rankings, your overall rank will drop, the incoming numbers of your students will plummet, and as dean you will be out of a job. A 10% decrease in students would probably sink a lot of schools already struggling to keep up. Schools connected to a uni might be able to negotiate a decrease in the tax to offset the loss of revenue, but private standalone schools like Cooley, NYLS would be the first to fold.

The ideal situation would be for the ABA to come in and forcibly close 75-100 offending law schools, leaving top schools with true national placement and low-cost regional or state alternatives. Whether they could do this at all given they seem to be controlled by TTT law deans and professors and threatened by DOJ anti-trust lawsuits is another question.

cam_leafer
Posts: 7
Joined: Sun Jan 22, 2012 7:25 pm

Re: NPR Exposes the Law School Scam

Postby cam_leafer » Sun Jan 22, 2012 8:17 pm

MTal is great. Keep this thread going!

09042014
Posts: 18282
Joined: Wed Oct 14, 2009 10:47 pm

Re: NPR Exposes the Law School Scam

Postby 09042014 » Sun Jan 22, 2012 8:23 pm

romothesavior wrote:
Gail wrote:I actually think that he's right on about SIU and NIU and I live in Illinois.

SIU and NIU aren't great schools, but they are dirt cheap and have niche markets. I wouldn't advise anyone go there without a full ride and strong ties to northern (non-Chicago) or southern Illinois, but in the pantheon of shitty law schools, they are alright. I actually have recommended to friends to take scholarships to SIU over going to expensive T1s and T2s in other states, but they don't listen.


NIU doesn't have a niche market. It's almost a Chicago commuter school. I bet virtually all practice in Chicago. But at least they are cheap.

User avatar
hoos89
Posts: 1969
Joined: Sun Jan 08, 2012 11:09 pm

Re: NPR Exposes the Law School Scam

Postby hoos89 » Sun Jan 22, 2012 10:00 pm

/
Last edited by hoos89 on Fri Jul 04, 2014 11:51 am, edited 1 time in total.

timbs4339
Posts: 2733
Joined: Sat Apr 02, 2011 12:19 pm

Re: NPR Exposes the Law School Scam

Postby timbs4339 » Sun Jan 22, 2012 11:25 pm

hoos89 wrote:
timbs4339 wrote:Capping or cutting the number of students is simply not going to work within the current structure of legal education. There are too many professors with too high salaries and nice perks, too many administrative personnel, high facilities costs, and for schools connected with universities, a "tax" by the parent uni. There is also the need to give out large finaid awards to attract top students and keep the LSAT/GPA numbers up. If even one of these is cut they all go. For example, if you cut professor salaries and increase teaching loads, profs are going to leave, you'll get hammered in the USNWR reputation rankings, your overall rank will drop, the incoming numbers of your students will plummet, and as dean you will be out of a job. A 10% decrease in students would probably sink a lot of schools already struggling to keep up. Schools connected to a uni might be able to negotiate a decrease in the tax to offset the loss of revenue, but private standalone schools like Cooley, NYLS would be the first to fold.

The ideal situation would be for the ABA to come in and forcibly close 75-100 offending law schools, leaving top schools with true national placement and low-cost regional or state alternatives. Whether they could do this at all given they seem to be controlled by TTT law deans and professors and threatened by DOJ anti-trust lawsuits is another question.


I'm sorry were you just arguing that closing stand alone schools would be bad? I don't think most of us would be sad to see Cooley or NYLS go. And it seems to me that a lot of the top law schools COULD front a 10% loss in income from tuition. It may require the parent schools to sink a bit more cash into them, but a lot of them have 10 figure endowments, and rather than cutting the salaries of professors you could simply downsize the number of professors by...10% (granted tenure might make that difficult). still i'm pretty sure that most of the schools that couldn't eat the loss would be among those that you would like to see the ABA to close.


"The ideal situation would be for the ABA to come in and forcibly close 75-100 offending law schools, leaving top schools with true national placement and low-cost regional or state alternatives." - basically, the schools that would be left after the purge would be the top schools with legitimate claims to having great placement, and low-cost public schools with regional placement.

I was arguing that law schools (by this I mean law school deans who make these decisions) are not going to cut their numbers of students voluntarily given how dependent law schools are on maintaining faculty reputation and LSAT/GPA numbers relative to peer schools. What will happen is that they will keep reaching lower and lower into the pool of applicants (reasoning that their peer schools will do this as well, moving down the chain) and probably increase their marketing efforts and other little tricks to attract students.

I'm sure the top schools could reduce head count- but why would they? They are in the best position to spend extravagantly and wastefull because can guarantee good employment (biglaw, midlaw, gov, prestigious PI, clerkships) for most of their students- I say this as a T6 3L who is still jobless. Nobody is suggesting a CLS or HLS degree is a bad investment (yet). They are also involved in bitter intra-T14 rivalry for as many as 1 or 2 USNWR spots (see CLS v. NYU).




Return to “Law School Admissions Forum”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Bing [Bot], Keilz, lawnerd87 and 4 guests