NPR Exposes the Law School Scam

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splitbrain
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Re: NPR Exposes the Law School Scam

Postby splitbrain » Tue Jan 17, 2012 7:38 pm

IAFG wrote:
fatduck wrote:
IAFG wrote:If it does derail it, maybe it was in need of de-railing.

this makes no sense

If people are on the verge of making a huge mistake, why shouldn't MTal go to them and say so? If he's wrong, wouldn't it be pretty easy to smack him down?


Is it just me or is this debate getting too complicated?

There's only one sticky on the "Acceptances..." forums and it flat out states that TLS does not want posts like that in that in that specific forum:

http://top-law-schools.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=7&t=146613

Discussion between applicants is fine, but this forum is NOT the place to argue or debate which law schools are worth attending and under what circumstances. The threads here typically involve people who have already decided to apply and are seeking or sharing news on the state of their applications. You and them and everyone else are all free to discuss whether or not attending is a good idea in the appropriate forum, not here.

Starting or perpetuating arguments here about whether a school is worth attending may be deemed trolling and get you banned.


Thus, I am confused about MTal's initial reaction to receiving a warning.

Additionally, there's a paragraph that essentially agrees with the concept of educating yourself as a 0L, so the argument against TLS philosophy seems rather unfounded.

And finally, there's even a link at the bottom of that sticky that goes to what I assume is the place to state your disagreements with the policies of a board.

Can someone explain how all of this is unreasonable? (See my avatar).

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MTal
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Re: NPR Exposes the Law School Scam

Postby MTal » Tue Jan 17, 2012 7:39 pm

fatduck wrote: it's like saying there's nothing wrong with people going into the NFL 2011-2012 thread every day and posting long-winded essays about how hockey is so much better than football, and replying to every post with a comparison to hockey that demonstrates the inferiority of football. yea, someone could point out that hockey-lover is an idiot, but in the meantime it gets really frustrating to use the thread to talk about football.


Because prevailing in a debate over Football vs. Hockey is exactly equal to preventing a possibly life ruining decision to accumulate 200k in debt for nothing?

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IAFG
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Re: NPR Exposes the Law School Scam

Postby IAFG » Tue Jan 17, 2012 7:41 pm

@splitbrain: Just because there is a stated policy doesn't make it a good policy.

A better analogy than the football/hockey one is a thread for teens who are trying to get pregnant. Even though some of them may be set on getting pregnant, all of them are making a terrible mistake.

joan_mgl
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Re: NPR Exposes the Law School Scam

Postby joan_mgl » Tue Jan 17, 2012 7:44 pm

.
Last edited by joan_mgl on Thu Aug 16, 2012 2:47 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Helmholtz
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Re: NPR Exposes the Law School Scam

Postby Helmholtz » Tue Jan 17, 2012 7:46 pm

joan_mgl wrote:Ok I'm new here and OL but I was wondering if this MTal was Elie Mystal of Above the Law blog? Forgive me if I'm wrong.

Elie Mystal is an editor of Above the Law. His first name is pronounced like Eliot without the “it,” and his last name is pronounced like Cristal (the champagne). Prior to winning the ATL Idol Contest, Elie wrote about politics and popular culture at City Hall News and the New York Press. Elie received a degree in Government from Harvard University and a J.D. from Harvard Law School. He still has a rash from all the poison ivy. He used to be a litigator at Debevoise & Plimpton but quit the legal profession in lieu of stripping naked and lighting himself on fire. Elie is a proud and basically competent husband. He is a contributor at True/Slant and enjoys the Mets, dogs, and arguing with strangers.


lolwat

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Re: NPR Exposes the Law School Scam

Postby snehpets » Tue Jan 17, 2012 7:47 pm

joan_mgl wrote:Ok I'm new here and OL but I was wondering if this MTal was Elie Mystal of Above the Law blog? Forgive me if I'm wrong.

Elie Mystal is an editor of Above the Law. His first name is pronounced like Eliot without the “it,” and his last name is pronounced like Cristal (the champagne). Prior to winning the ATL Idol Contest, Elie wrote about politics and popular culture at City Hall News and the New York Press. Elie received a degree in Government from Harvard University and a J.D. from Harvard Law School. He still has a rash from all the poison ivy. He used to be a litigator at Debevoise & Plimpton but quit the legal profession in lieu of stripping naked and lighting himself on fire. Elie is a proud and basically competent husband. He is a contributor at True/Slant and enjoys the Mets, dogs, and arguing with strangers.


that would be really awesome internet stalking. unfortunately someone said he went to nebraska or something (right?).

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MrPapagiorgio
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Re: NPR Exposes the Law School Scam

Postby MrPapagiorgio » Tue Jan 17, 2012 7:48 pm

Helmholtz wrote:
joan_mgl wrote:Ok I'm new here and OL but I was wondering if this MTal was Elie Mystal of Above the Law blog? Forgive me if I'm wrong.

Elie Mystal is an editor of Above the Law. His first name is pronounced like Eliot without the “it,” and his last name is pronounced like Cristal (the champagne). Prior to winning the ATL Idol Contest, Elie wrote about politics and popular culture at City Hall News and the New York Press. Elie received a degree in Government from Harvard University and a J.D. from Harvard Law School. He still has a rash from all the poison ivy. He used to be a litigator at Debevoise & Plimpton but quit the legal profession in lieu of stripping naked and lighting himself on fire. Elie is a proud and basically competent husband. He is a contributor at True/Slant and enjoys the Mets, dogs, and arguing with strangers.


lolwat

Huge LOL at suggesting MTal went to HLS.

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Guchster
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Re: NPR Exposes the Law School Scam

Postby Guchster » Tue Jan 17, 2012 8:21 pm

joan_mgl wrote:Ok I'm new here and OL but I was wondering if this MTal was Elie Mystal of Above the Law blog? Forgive me if I'm wrong.

Elie Mystal is an editor of Above the Law. His first name is pronounced like Eliot without the “it,” and his last name is pronounced like Cristal (the champagne). Prior to winning the ATL Idol Contest, Elie wrote about politics and popular culture at City Hall News and the New York Press. Elie received a degree in Government from Harvard University and a J.D. from Harvard Law School. He still has a rash from all the poison ivy. He used to be a litigator at Debevoise & Plimpton but quit the legal profession in lieu of stripping naked and lighting himself on fire. Elie is a proud and basically competent husband. He is a contributor at True/Slant and enjoys the Mets, dogs, and arguing with strangers.


l0l'd. MTal, STOP CREATING FAKE ACCOUNTS TO BOOST YOUR CREDIBILITY!

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YourCaptain
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Re: NPR Exposes the Law School Scam

Postby YourCaptain » Tue Jan 17, 2012 8:27 pm

joan_mgl wrote:Ok I'm new here and OL but I was wondering if this MTal was Elie Mystal of Above the Law blog? Forgive me if I'm wrong.

Elie Mystal is an editor of Above the Law. His first name is pronounced like Eliot without the “it,” and his last name is pronounced like Cristal (the champagne). Prior to winning the ATL Idol Contest, Elie wrote about politics and popular culture at City Hall News and the New York Press. Elie received a degree in Government from Harvard University and a J.D. from Harvard Law School. He still has a rash from all the poison ivy. He used to be a litigator at Debevoise & Plimpton but quit the legal profession in lieu of stripping naked and lighting himself on fire. Elie is a proud and basically competent husband. He is a contributor at True/Slant and enjoys the Mets, dogs, and arguing with strangers.


INCREDIBLE elie mystal trolling.

ty sir i tip my hat off to you


edit: still lol'ing

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NYC Law
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Re: NPR Exposes the Law School Scam

Postby NYC Law » Tue Jan 17, 2012 8:34 pm

YourCaptain wrote:
joan_mgl wrote:Ok I'm new here and OL but I was wondering if this MTal was Elie Mystal of Above the Law blog? Forgive me if I'm wrong.

Elie Mystal is an editor of Above the Law. His first name is pronounced like Eliot without the “it,” and his last name is pronounced like Cristal (the champagne). Prior to winning the ATL Idol Contest, Elie wrote about politics and popular culture at City Hall News and the New York Press. Elie received a degree in Government from Harvard University and a J.D. from Harvard Law School. He still has a rash from all the poison ivy. He used to be a litigator at Debevoise & Plimpton but quit the legal profession in lieu of stripping naked and lighting himself on fire. Elie is a proud and basically competent husband. He is a contributor at True/Slant and enjoys the Mets, dogs, and arguing with strangers.


INCREDIBLE elie mystal trolling.

ty sir i tip my hat off to you


edit: still lol'ing


That stuff was just copied and pasted (LinkRemoved).

(Which I think she meant for us to know, she was just highlighting the arguing with strangers part)

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Bildungsroman
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Re: NPR Exposes the Law School Scam

Postby Bildungsroman » Tue Jan 17, 2012 8:44 pm

That would make a good poll: whose opinion do you care about less, MTal or Elie Mystal's? Mods, can we get a poll on that?

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weezer21
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Re: NPR Exposes the Law School Scam

Postby weezer21 » Tue Jan 17, 2012 9:39 pm

Curious1 wrote:Interesting article.

FWIW I think what you're doing is very valuable. In my opinion there should only be 6 law schools in the country, and certainly only 6 worth going to.


I know that this was posted ages ago (22 hours but a few pages back) and Curious was summarily told that she was wrong but I'm going to have to say (and probably also get tons of flack) that I agree. Obviously I think there should be more than 6 law schools in the country but there certainly shouldn't be the number there are now (I was in a bookstore the other day and saw Princeton Review's book of the "best 171 law schools" and the only thing I could think was there are 171 law schools?). A law school education is not a right and I fail to see why it should be any different from say, medical school where there are around 125 schools in the US. Someone who did poorly on the MCAT and didn't do well in school doesn't just get to go to medical school (maybe in the Caribbean) so why should it be different for law school? A law degree has been robbed of its value by the scores of unqualified people being welcomed into the arms of law schools growing fat on federal loan money. You should need to meet certain criteria to be able to study law and the degradation of law education and the profession will continue as long as there are thousands of people lining up to enroll in their local crap state school's law school or another shining light of legal wisdom simply so they can get a career they think has cache. Go ahead, light me up...

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NYC Law
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Re: NPR Exposes the Law School Scam

Postby NYC Law » Tue Jan 17, 2012 9:40 pm

weezer21 wrote:
Curious1 wrote:Interesting article.

FWIW I think what you're doing is very valuable. In my opinion there should only be 6 law schools in the country, and certainly only 6 worth going to.


I know that this was posted ages ago (22 hours but a few pages back) and Curious was summarily told that she was wrong but I'm going to have to say (and probably also get tons of flack) that I agree. Obviously I think there should be more than 6 law schools in the country but there certainly shouldn't be the number there are now (I was in a bookstore the other day and saw Princeton Review's book of the "best 171 law schools" and the only thing I could think was there are 171 law schools?). A law school education is not a right and I fail to see why it should be any different from say, medical school where there are around 125 schools in the US. Someone who did poorly on the MCAT and didn't do well in school doesn't just get to go to medical school (maybe in the Caribbean) so why should it be different for law school? A law degree has been robbed of its value by the scores of unqualified people being welcomed into the arms of law schools growing fat on federal loan money. You should need to meet certain criteria to be able to study law and the degradation of law education and the profession will continue as long as there are thousands of people lining up to enroll in their local crap state school's law school or another shining light of legal wisdom simply so they can get a career they think has cache. Go ahead, light me up...


"There should be fewer law schools" =/= "Only the most elite law schools should be allowed to exist"

Everyone agrees with the former, so don't worry, you aren't making some controversial statement.

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weezer21
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Re: NPR Exposes the Law School Scam

Postby weezer21 » Tue Jan 17, 2012 9:42 pm

NYC Law wrote:
weezer21 wrote:
Curious1 wrote:Interesting article.

FWIW I think what you're doing is very valuable. In my opinion there should only be 6 law schools in the country, and certainly only 6 worth going to.


I know that this was posted ages ago (22 hours but a few pages back) and Curious was summarily told that she was wrong but I'm going to have to say (and probably also get tons of flack) that I agree. Obviously I think there should be more than 6 law schools in the country but there certainly shouldn't be the number there are now (I was in a bookstore the other day and saw Princeton Review's book of the "best 171 law schools" and the only thing I could think was there are 171 law schools?). A law school education is not a right and I fail to see why it should be any different from say, medical school where there are around 125 schools in the US. Someone who did poorly on the MCAT and didn't do well in school doesn't just get to go to medical school (maybe in the Caribbean) so why should it be different for law school? A law degree has been robbed of its value by the scores of unqualified people being welcomed into the arms of law schools growing fat on federal loan money. You should need to meet certain criteria to be able to study law and the degradation of law education and the profession will continue as long as there are thousands of people lining up to enroll in their local crap state school's law school or another shining light of legal wisdom simply so they can get a career they think has cache. Go ahead, light me up...


"There should be fewer law schools" =/= "Only the most elite law schools should be allowed to exist"

Everyone agrees with the former, so don't worry, you aren't making some controversial statement.


I actually do believe that only the most elite schools should exist but I know that will never happen so I'll settle for a massive decrease.

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Re: NPR Exposes the Law School Scam

Postby NYC Law » Tue Jan 17, 2012 9:43 pm

weezer21 wrote:
NYC Law wrote:
weezer21 wrote:
Curious1 wrote:Interesting article.

FWIW I think what you're doing is very valuable. In my opinion there should only be 6 law schools in the country, and certainly only 6 worth going to.


I know that this was posted ages ago (22 hours but a few pages back) and Curious was summarily told that she was wrong but I'm going to have to say (and probably also get tons of flack) that I agree. Obviously I think there should be more than 6 law schools in the country but there certainly shouldn't be the number there are now (I was in a bookstore the other day and saw Princeton Review's book of the "best 171 law schools" and the only thing I could think was there are 171 law schools?). A law school education is not a right and I fail to see why it should be any different from say, medical school where there are around 125 schools in the US. Someone who did poorly on the MCAT and didn't do well in school doesn't just get to go to medical school (maybe in the Caribbean) so why should it be different for law school? A law degree has been robbed of its value by the scores of unqualified people being welcomed into the arms of law schools growing fat on federal loan money. You should need to meet certain criteria to be able to study law and the degradation of law education and the profession will continue as long as there are thousands of people lining up to enroll in their local crap state school's law school or another shining light of legal wisdom simply so they can get a career they think has cache. Go ahead, light me up...


"There should be fewer law schools" =/= "Only the most elite law schools should be allowed to exist"

Everyone agrees with the former, so don't worry, you aren't making some controversial statement.


I actually do believe the only the most elite schools should exist but I know that will never happen so I'll settle for a massive decrease.


Well then that it is a retarded position.

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Re: NPR Exposes the Law School Scam

Postby weezer21 » Tue Jan 17, 2012 9:46 pm

NYC Law wrote:

Well then that it is a retarded position.


Why? Because everyone should be able to be a lawyer? I'm not saying only T6 but I'd say only having 50 law schools would be a start. The issue is that so many people are underqualified and over entitled. Sorry but seeing "OMGintoChicago-Kent!!!!!111!" threads can get annoying.

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Re: NPR Exposes the Law School Scam

Postby NYC Law » Tue Jan 17, 2012 9:50 pm

weezer21 wrote:
NYC Law wrote:

Well then that it is a retarded position.


Why? Because everyone should be able to be a lawyer? I'm not saying only T6 but I'd say only having 50 law schools would be a start. The issue is that so many people are underqualified and over entitled. Sorry but seeing "OMGintoChicago-Kent!!!!!111!" threads can get annoying.


1) The average school has matriculates about 300. 300*50 = 15,000, which is about half as many jobs there are for new lawyers a year, resulting in a massive shortage.

2) So Hawaii, Nebraska, Kentucky, Most Rural areas don't get a law school anywhere in the state?

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Re: NPR Exposes the Law School Scam

Postby albanach » Tue Jan 17, 2012 10:02 pm

weezer21 wrote:Why? Because everyone should be able to be a lawyer?


No, its because anyone who needs one should be able to hire a lawyer.

If we were limited to the T14 or even T50, there would be a massive shortage of lawyers. It would be near impossible to fill public defender and prosecutor positions. The criminal justice system would begin to grind to a halt. The poor would have little chance of affordable representation in civil suits. Small businesses could not afford representation to allow them to engage properly in commercial transactions. The real estate markets would slow down.

For the courts and economy to function, it's necessary to churn out at least a small percentage more lawyers each year than vacancies exist.

Nobody
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Re: NPR Exposes the Law School Scam

Postby Nobody » Tue Jan 17, 2012 10:29 pm

The better answer is probably that those lower ranked schools that graduate wills-and-estates and traffic lawyers have a social purpose, but they shouldn't be charging like they're graduating the next class at Cravath.

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Re: NPR Exposes the Law School Scam

Postby sundance95 » Tue Jan 17, 2012 11:35 pm

weezer21 wrote:
NYC Law wrote:

Well then that it is a retarded position.


Why? Because everyone should be able to be a lawyer? I'm not saying only T6 but I'd say only having 50 law schools would be a start. The issue is that so many people are underqualified and over entitled. Sorry but seeing "OMGintoChicago-Kent!!!!!111!" threads can get annoying.

Why does this annoy you? Protip: don't read those threads.

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Re: NPR Exposes the Law School Scam

Postby fatduck » Tue Jan 17, 2012 11:46 pm

IAFG wrote:I mean I don't really care about the quality of the content of the NU c/o 2013 thread or whatever, so in my eyes the cost is low, but your analogy is bad because no one is hurting themselves by liking football better than hockey, it's a far more subjective determination, etc, etc. It is objectively a bad idea for the vast majority of NYLS admits to proceed.

except that even if hockey were 100% objectively better than football, and anyone who enjoyed watching football more than hockey was objectively wrong, it would still be reasonable to say "hey, hockey fans, please do not post in the 'NFL Fans' thread telling everyone there that they are stupid and hockey is better. if you want to talk about how shitty football is, do it in a different thread."

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Re: NPR Exposes the Law School Scam

Postby YourCaptain » Tue Jan 17, 2012 11:50 pm

NYC Law wrote:
weezer21 wrote:
NYC Law wrote:

Well then that it is a retarded position.


Why? Because everyone should be able to be a lawyer? I'm not saying only T6 but I'd say only having 50 law schools would be a start. The issue is that so many people are underqualified and over entitled. Sorry but seeing "OMGintoChicago-Kent!!!!!111!" threads can get annoying.


1) The average school has matriculates about 300. 300*50 = 15,000, which is about half as many jobs there are for new lawyers a year, resulting in a massive shortage.

2) So Hawaii, Nebraska, Kentucky, Most Rural areas don't get a law school anywhere in the state?


1) probably should be around 100 schools.

2) they should have schools, simply with enrollments to match their needs.

3) ny has no excuse for that many schools

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Re: NPR Exposes the Law School Scam

Postby NYC Law » Tue Jan 17, 2012 11:56 pm

YourCaptain wrote:
NYC Law wrote:
weezer21 wrote:
NYC Law wrote:

Well then that it is a retarded position.


Why? Because everyone should be able to be a lawyer? I'm not saying only T6 but I'd say only having 50 law schools would be a start. The issue is that so many people are underqualified and over entitled. Sorry but seeing "OMGintoChicago-Kent!!!!!111!" threads can get annoying.


1) The average school has matriculates about 300. 300*50 = 15,000, which is about half as many jobs there are for new lawyers a year, resulting in a massive shortage.

2) So Hawaii, Nebraska, Kentucky, Most Rural areas don't get a law school anywhere in the state?


1) probably should be around 100 schools. - Doesn't really leave enough room for people who don't pass the bar, fail out, do other things, and you want some sort of cushion just in case, so that each school has around 90-95% actual employment. More like 110-125 schools

2) they should have schools, simply with enrollments to match their needs. - agree

3) ny has no excuse for that many schools - agree


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Re: NPR Exposes the Law School Scam

Postby hyakku » Wed Jan 18, 2012 10:49 am

weezer21 wrote:
NYC Law wrote:

Well then that it is a retarded position.


Why? Because everyone should be able to be a lawyer? I'm not saying only T6 but I'd say only having 50 law schools would be a start. The issue is that so many people are underqualified and over entitled. Sorry but seeing "OMGintoChicago-Kent!!!!!111!" threads can get annoying.


Math. Thats why. Also chicago Kent was like 61 last year so it's really not that far off. Finally, stop reading threads that bother you. I know, a novel idea.

I'm still confused at why so many of you on TLS find it necessary to show people the errors of their ways. I guess I'm starting to get what this "gunner" mentality is all about. So funny.

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Re: NPR Exposes the Law School Scam

Postby skers » Wed Jan 18, 2012 12:13 pm

Except that rankings are a useless barometer of the actual worth of a law school. Nobody cares about rankings when people on law review at a school like Kent can't get jobs. It's not just ITE either. The bubble helped to cover up existing problems in the system, but there were still individuals like my uncle who graduated from Kent IP secure, above median, and with good WE still struggled to find jobs pre-collapse. There are just simply way too many law schools and way too many lawyers.

Also, the argument that rural areas wouldn't have lawyers if we substantially cut down the number of law schools is silly. Those areas don't have med schools or dental schools, but still have dentists and doctors. State to state contract programs effectively provide education for kids without schools in their states and fill needed positions in their states. The same thing could easily be done with law schools.




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