About those emails offering to waive application fee...

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luthersloan
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Re: About those emails offering to waive application fee...

Postby luthersloan » Tue Jan 10, 2012 5:09 am

King,

As I understand it the research on Law school admissions and first year grades does support a stronger correlation with LSAT than with GPA, and in fact tends to show the LSAT is a better predictor than other standardized tests used for other schools (SAT, GRE, etc).

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PDaddy
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Re: About those emails offering to waive application fee...

Postby PDaddy » Tue Jan 10, 2012 5:10 am

Philosopher King wrote:SO I have received dozens of emails from law schools offering to waive their application fees before I took the LSAT. I just assumed they were TTTT schools and never took it seriously. Now, I just got a bunch today after an email confirming my second transcript was received from LSAC. There are a few serious, top 100 schools. One is from W&L Law in Lexington, Virginia, for example, which is ranked no. 30 with an LSAT range of 161-167. The email says: "A law school candidate with your credentials has no doubt received invitations to apply from a number of fine institutions. However, because I believe you will find W&L Law is genuinely different from other schools, I hope you will consider one more invitation."

So I guess the question is, do they actually know my credentials or are they just BSing me. Because if they knew my credentials they would know that I have a 155 LSAT, and I highly doubt any "fine institutions" are interested in me beyond a good person to have on their wait list.


I am not looking at your profile. Are you listed as URM? Is your transcript impressive enough that you are a splitter? The 10-point bump you might have received (to 165 +/-) would do it. Sadly, even at 155, you are in at least the top-90% of black test-takers. A school like W & L would take you as a serious candidate.

Admissions is NOT all about numbers, as people on TLS would have you believe. Whenever someone here tells you you cannot get into a particular school, do not listen - unless your situation is ridiculously grim (ex. 2.3/135 and no softs).

Trust me. I have assisted a lot of people with law school admissions (co-writing/editing essays and addenda, resume writing, LOR content for profs/employers, strategic planning of LOCI's, etc.), and every one of them has gotten into at least one top-20 law school. Several have gotten into T14's. If you can afford to apply to W & L, you should go for it. Half of the people telling you you shouldn't have applied there themselves. If they can make you look elsewhere it helps THEM, not you.
Last edited by PDaddy on Tue Jan 10, 2012 5:35 am, edited 1 time in total.

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PDaddy
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Re: About those emails offering to waive application fee...

Postby PDaddy » Tue Jan 10, 2012 5:23 am

luthersloan wrote:King,

As I understand it the research on Law school admissions and first year grades does support a stronger correlation with LSAT than with GPA, and in fact tends to show the LSAT is a better predictor than other standardized tests used for other schools (SAT, GRE, etc).


As I understand it, the LSAC still refuses to publish the actual data. Note that I didn't say "RESULTS of the data". Let's see who knows the difference. Where is the evidence showing that this cockin' bull correlation even exists?

"Something is rotten in the state of Denmark!"

~Marcellus in Shakespeare's play Hamlet.

Insurance companies claim there's a correlation between bad credit scores and the likelihood that one will get into an auto accident, and, sililarly refuses to show its data. That's because it doesn't exist, and nobody with a brain would buy it. How in the world can that even be possible?

I have heard conflicting stories about this supposed correlation. What does any potential correlation between LSAT and first-year grades even mean? It's BS!

First, LSAC doesn't even define this "correlation"; so we should assume that the so-called experts have reached an unsupported factual conclusion right off the bat.

Secondly, there may be some loose "situational correlation" between LSAT scores and first-year grades, but what would that even mean when the possibilities are almost endless?

I am skeptical that such a correlation exists in the aggregate. One example of situational correlation may be when students who score below a certain level (say 150) are admitted to schools at which the median LSAT is more than 10-points above the aggregate scores of such persons (which might be 148), their first-year GPA's may fall below "B+" on average. Or maybe such students tend to reach the top-25% of their first-year classes far less frequently than those students whose scores fall closer to or above the median scores. I am being generous here.

All LSAC keeps showing is the alleged results of its data, not the data itself. As always, I'm selling big-time on this one until I see the actual data! I don't believe it exists.

I could show you a box score showing that Kobe scored 50 points in a game (i.e. "results of the data"), but to prove it, I would need to show game film and a court scoring chart showing the spots from which each shot was taken ("actual data").

luthersloan
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Re: About those emails offering to waive application fee...

Postby luthersloan » Tue Jan 10, 2012 6:24 am

Okay- two points about insurance companies. First, if there were no relationship between credit scores and accidents (or some other factor which makes the person a worse candidate for insurance) insurance companies would be at a competitive disadvantage and the practice would be worked out of the market via competitive pressures. Second, there is a fine reason for believing such a correlation exists. People who are either dumb or irresponsible are more likely to have bad credit, and people who are dumb and/or irresponsible are more likely to get into accidents.

So like a correlation is a positive statistical relationship between two variables, it simply means that if one variable is higher, it is more likely that the second will be higher as well. Now, the same think would exist for IQ tests, or GPAs or anything that measured intelligence as well.

Also, it seems LSAC does release the raw data to outside parties. See this study a professor did on transfer students using LSAC data. http://www.swlaw.edu/pdfs/jle/jle604Rensberger.pdf

But, even if they did not, is there any reason why they would go through all the effort of producing a bunch of fraudulent studies? Like, what would be the point? It is not like schools faking employment data for economic gain.

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omninode
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Re: About those emails offering to waive application fee...

Postby omninode » Tue Jan 10, 2012 7:08 am

Washington & Lee has no application fee, ever, for anybody. They send out the email because they have nothing to lose (and maybe a little to gain) by doing so. This whole thread is moot, and now I'm afraid it has been hijacked by yet another LSAT argument (i.e., the cancer that is killing TLS).

LawSchoolChampion
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Re: About those emails offering to waive application fee...

Postby LawSchoolChampion » Tue Jan 10, 2012 2:09 pm

Nate895 wrote:As far as it predicting how well you do in law school, it is actually a fairly good predictor of your grades in law school from what I have read. Consider that law schools all boils down to final exam based on similar reasoning patterns to the ones found on the LSAT. How well you do on the LSAT should mirror very well how you will perform in law school. It isn't perfect, but neither is your GPA a perfect predictor. Taken together, they give admissions deans a fairly complete picture of how well an applicant will do.


This is pretty much accurate from my understanding.

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puff0ffluff
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Re: About those emails offering to waive application fee...

Postby puff0ffluff » Tue Jan 10, 2012 2:19 pm

Does anyone who got the UPenn waiver know what it's based on? (Min GPA of ___? or Min LSAT of ___? or both?)

Sorry for being off topic.

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Worker and Parasite
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Re: About those emails offering to waive application fee...

Postby Worker and Parasite » Tue Jan 10, 2012 2:24 pm

lifqiu wrote:If you don't think you'll get in (even SLIGHTLY), don't spend that 16$ on the report fee to LSAC. Fee waivers are one thing, but all the LSAC report fees add up.


wait what

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rinkrat19
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Re: About those emails offering to waive application fee...

Postby rinkrat19 » Tue Jan 10, 2012 3:54 pm

LawSchoolChampion wrote:
Nate895 wrote:As far as it predicting how well you do in law school, it is actually a fairly good predictor of your grades in law school from what I have read. Consider that law schools all boils down to final exam based on similar reasoning patterns to the ones found on the LSAT. How well you do on the LSAT should mirror very well how you will perform in law school. It isn't perfect, but neither is your GPA a perfect predictor. Taken together, they give admissions deans a fairly complete picture of how well an applicant will do.


This is pretty much accurate from my understanding.
Not really, at all.
LSAT and UGPA together are the best, but still a very weak, predictor of law school success. This is largely because once you've matriculated to a certain school, the students there are all have very similar LSAT/UGPA. Logically, you'd expect them all to do about the same. But this group of students is forced onto a curve, meaning that someone has to do great and someone has to do terribly.

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MrPapagiorgio
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Re: About those emails offering to waive application fee...

Postby MrPapagiorgio » Tue Jan 10, 2012 4:33 pm

The unwavering stamina of PK to continue debates where he goes off the reservation makes me lead to one possible conclusion:

Philosopher King = CactusPuppy

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Philosopher King
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Re: About those emails offering to waive application fee...

Postby Philosopher King » Tue Jan 10, 2012 4:34 pm

MrPapagiorgio wrote:The unwavering stamina of PK to continue debates where he goes off the reservation makes me lead to one possible conclusion:

Philosopher King = CactusPuppy


Who is cactuspuppy?

Mal Reynolds
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Re: About those emails offering to waive application fee...

Postby Mal Reynolds » Tue Jan 10, 2012 4:45 pm

Where Philosopher King is going he doesn't need... Roads.

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puff0ffluff
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Re: About those emails offering to waive application fee...

Postby puff0ffluff » Tue Jan 10, 2012 5:29 pm

MrPapagiorgio wrote:The unwavering stamina of PK to continue debates where he goes off the reservation makes me lead to one possible conclusion:

Philosopher King = CactusPuppy



there is also a possibility these are two such similar people... perhaps it's a TLS tradition that one person a year will debate against the legitimacy of the LSAT. =)

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Philosopher King
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Re: About those emails offering to waive application fee...

Postby Philosopher King » Tue Jan 10, 2012 5:41 pm

puff0ffluff wrote:
MrPapagiorgio wrote:The unwavering stamina of PK to continue debates where he goes off the reservation makes me lead to one possible conclusion:

Philosopher King = CactusPuppy



there is also a possibility these are two such similar people... perhaps it's a TLS tradition that one person a year will debate against the legitimacy of the LSAT. =)


Why do people say I'm someone else? Have the moderators check my IP address. Look, it's easy to find this stuff out. I used to run a forum and I had a user paranoid that some new user was someone that had been banned and so I looked into it and could prove that wasn't the case.

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puff0ffluff
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Re: About those emails offering to waive application fee...

Postby puff0ffluff » Tue Jan 10, 2012 7:12 pm

it's okay PK. =) i'm sure most people are just a little stressed out as well. i mean, it's the only reason we come on this website: to vent. =P

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Monte.Cristo
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Re: About those emails offering to waive application fee...

Postby Monte.Cristo » Tue Jan 10, 2012 7:24 pm

rinkrat19 wrote: If your numbers aren't in the ballpark for a certain school and they still sent you a waiver, they want you to apply so they can reject you.


+1




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