Vandy outside of the South

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VVssR
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Vandy outside of the South

Postby VVssR » Tue Jan 03, 2012 7:36 pm

Hello all,

So I have been accepted into Vanderbilt. I never would of applied there if it wasn't for a law school fair where the representative was very nice and sold it pretty well. Anyway, I always have envisioned myself working on the West Coast and I was wondering Vanderbilt's job prospects west of Texas? I have zero interest working in the South, and might have interest in other areas of the country, but would heavily prefer the West Coast in job placement.

Vandy seems like a nice place and it is the best school I have gotten into so far, so I was wondering what would my chances be coming back West?

Side note: I have been waitlisted at UCLA and rejected at SC. haven't heard back from Washington (Seattle) and other schools I have been accepted to or auto admit are tier 2 West Coast schools.

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Errzii
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Re: Vandy outside of the South

Postby Errzii » Tue Jan 03, 2012 7:41 pm

Will you be paying sticker at Vandy? Because paying sticker at Vandy when you have "zero interesting working in the South" and your main goal is to get back to the west coast seems way too big of a risk. Are you open to working on the east coast at all? BTW their geographic placement stats are on their website, http://law.vanderbilt.edu/prospective-s ... index.aspx

VVssR
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Re: Vandy outside of the South

Postby VVssR » Tue Jan 03, 2012 7:57 pm

Thanks. Ya they gave me one of those pamphlets with where people go I just didn't know how much of that was just self-selection. And yes I would be paying sticker.

Ya I didn't know if it was a good deal, but at the same time I wasn't for sure. Would a Tier 2 in the PNW w/ a scholly of half tuition or better be better than Vandy? I know it is hard to answer, because you guys aren't majestic wizards or Tim Tebow who can answer all. I wouldn't prefer a job on the East Coast, but I would probably be open to it. The idea of working in the South sounds terrible though (No disrespect, it just isn't for like the west coast or PNW isn't for some other people). Vandy does sound like a great environment and good job prospects.

ryemanhattan
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Re: Vandy outside of the South

Postby ryemanhattan » Tue Jan 03, 2012 8:04 pm

Hastings? Davis? Irvine?? If you want to be on the west coast Vandy is a very circuitous route. But it's a great law school, so tough call there. If you are sure you want to be in CA... I would blanket CA schools. If you got into Vandy you should be able to get fee waivers from every T2 in CA. I would look into Pepperdine if you have a high tolerance for Christian conservatives. They are a good school that gives out a lot of scholarship $. Places well in SoCal.

The Pacific Northwest is, from what I hear, a very saturated legal market. Lewis and Clark, UW would be fun to go to, but I'd look hard at some of your other Cali options.

Keep in mind that Vanderbilt, regardless of your geographical bias, is a fine option. You won't be trapped in the SE. But some of your best job prospects might be there.

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Errzii
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Re: Vandy outside of the South

Postby Errzii » Tue Jan 03, 2012 8:11 pm

VVssR wrote:Thanks. Ya they gave me one of those pamphlets with where people go I just didn't know how much of that was just self-selection. And yes I would be paying sticker.

Ya I didn't know if it was a good deal, but at the same time I wasn't for sure. Would a Tier 2 in the PNW w/ a scholly of half tuition or better be better than Vandy? I know it is hard to answer, because you guys aren't majestic wizards or Tim Tebow who can answer all. I wouldn't prefer a job on the East Coast, but I would probably be open to it. The idea of working in the South sounds terrible though (No disrespect, it just isn't for like the west coast or PNW isn't for some other people). Vandy does sound like a great environment and good job prospects.


From what I've read on TLS (Vandy people feel free to correct me) aside from the south Vandy grads can expect to do reasonably well on the east coast with main markets being DC and NY. My personal opinion is that if you're paying sticker for any school outside of T10 and maybe even just T6 you have to be prepared to live/work in that school's main markets and while it's definitely possible to make it back to the west coast with a Vandy degree it's probably not something you should count on. You really just have to consider how flexible you are with where you want to end up eventually.

VVssR
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Re: Vandy outside of the South

Postby VVssR » Tue Jan 03, 2012 8:32 pm

ryemanhattan wrote:Hastings? Davis? Irvine?? If you want to be on the west coast Vandy is a very circuitous route. But it's a great law school, so tough call there. If you are sure you want to be in CA... I would blanket CA schools. If you got into Vandy you should be able to get fee waivers from every T2 in CA. I would look into Pepperdine if you have a high tolerance for Christian conservatives. They are a good school that gives out a lot of scholarship $. Places well in SoCal.

The Pacific Northwest is, from what I hear, a very saturated legal market. Lewis and Clark, UW would be fun to go to, but I'd look hard at some of your other Cali options.

Keep in mind that Vanderbilt, regardless of your geographical bias, is a fine option. You won't be trapped in the SE. But some of your best job prospects might be there.


To be honest I wouldn't enjoy being in a school like Pepperdine for reasons you stated (Not trying to ruffle feathers, just not my cup of tea). But I did just recently apply to Hastings and Davis.

And isn't ever legal market very saturated? Or is PNW even more so? I have heard that California is a pretty bad market. Is the PNW worse? Sorry I know I have a lot of questions ha, but any help is much appreciated.

From what I've read on TLS (Vandy people feel free to correct me) aside from the south Vandy grads can expect to do reasonably well on the east coast with main markets being DC and NY. My personal opinion is that if you're paying sticker for any school outside of T10 and maybe even just T6 you have to be prepared to live/work in that school's main markets and while it's definitely possible to make it back to the west coast with a Vandy degree it's probably not something you should count on. You really just have to consider how flexible you are with where you want to end up eventually.


I am not trying to sound picky with where I live because I know getting a job in this economy is something to be happy with in itself. However, I wouldn't want to be "stuck" in the south because I don't feel I would be nearly as happy. But if Vandy is the only t-20, or even t-30 school I get into, do I want to take the risk by going to a great school like Vandy?

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Grizz
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Re: Vandy outside of the South

Postby Grizz » Tue Jan 03, 2012 8:56 pm

If you are from the West Coast you can probably make it to the West Coast. But it's not gonna get you there if you're not from there or have some other personal connection there. Legal hiring is largely based on places you have personal connections or ties to.

VVssR
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Re: Vandy outside of the South

Postby VVssR » Tue Jan 03, 2012 9:51 pm

Would a tier 2 with a scholly on the west coast be better than Vanderbilt for West Coast job prospects?

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Errzii
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Re: Vandy outside of the South

Postby Errzii » Tue Jan 03, 2012 10:20 pm

VVssR wrote:Would a tier 2 with a scholly on the west coast be better than Vanderbilt for West Coast job prospects?


From what I understand, job prospects will be largely based on 1) your school 2) how you rank in your class. That is, all things being equal, the same rank at Vandy should give you better job prospects than the same rank at a tier 2 given the first point. However, if you're in the top 5-10% at a tier 2 you might have better job prospects than say if you were the median at Vandy. At some point class rank will offset the school advantage. Thus, unless you know for sure where you will rank in your class (which you don't) there's no 100% right answer to that question. It's a gamble.

American_in_China
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Re: Vandy outside of the South

Postby American_in_China » Wed Jan 04, 2012 10:26 am

VVssR wrote:Would a tier 2 with a scholly on the west coast be better than Vanderbilt for West Coast job prospects?


Do you have legal connections on the West Coast?
If yes go to Vanderbilt.

Are you just from the area and want to return there?
Go to a school in California.

That said, Vanderbilt is a MUCH safer bet than a T2 on the West Coast, if you are willing to take what Vanderbilt gives you; DC, NYC, the South, and a little Chicago.

I would hesitate greatly in choosing a school just to be in a certain area, unless you are sure you have the contacts to find a job in that area.

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RVP11
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Re: Vandy outside of the South

Postby RVP11 » Wed Jan 04, 2012 10:58 am

Grizz wrote:If you are from the West Coast you can probably make it to the West Coast. But it's not gonna get you there if you're not from there or have some other personal connection there. Legal hiring is largely based on places you have personal connections or ties to.


This is something 0Ls, year after year, fail to understand. They think Yale -> can practice anywhere, and non-T14 -> must practice within region of the school.

Your ties - not your law school - determine where you can take your degree. Vanderbilt isn't even going to get you Nashville BigLaw (or BigLaw in any southern city) if you don't have previous ties to the city. But it can take you to any west coast city if you do have ties to that city.

VVssR
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Re: Vandy outside of the South

Postby VVssR » Wed Jan 04, 2012 7:34 pm

Thanks for all the help people.

RVP11 wrote:
Grizz wrote:If you are from the West Coast you can probably make it to the West Coast. But it's not gonna get you there if you're not from there or have some other personal connection there. Legal hiring is largely based on places you have personal connections or ties to.


This is something 0Ls, year after year, fail to understand. They think Yale -> can practice anywhere, and non-T14 -> must practice within region of the school.

Your ties - not your law school - determine where you can take your degree. Vanderbilt isn't even going to get you Nashville BigLaw (or BigLaw in any southern city) if you don't have previous ties to the city. But it can take you to any west coast city if you do have ties to that city.


That comes to me as a real surprise, thanks RVP. So just to make sure what you are saying is right, if I was theoretically from Portland, I would have a better shot at a Portland firm than a Nashville firm with a Vandy degree (And in this hypo both markets have equal amount of employment opportunities)?

American_in_China
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Re: Vandy outside of the South

Postby American_in_China » Wed Jan 04, 2012 11:03 pm

VVssR wrote:Thanks for all the help people.

RVP11 wrote:
Grizz wrote:If you are from the West Coast you can probably make it to the West Coast. But it's not gonna get you there if you're not from there or have some other personal connection there. Legal hiring is largely based on places you have personal connections or ties to.


This is something 0Ls, year after year, fail to understand. They think Yale -> can practice anywhere, and non-T14 -> must practice within region of the school.

Your ties - not your law school - determine where you can take your degree. Vanderbilt isn't even going to get you Nashville BigLaw (or BigLaw in any southern city) if you don't have previous ties to the city. But it can take you to any west coast city if you do have ties to that city.


That comes to me as a real surprise, thanks RVP. So just to make sure what you are saying is right, if I was theoretically from Portland, I would have a better shot at a Portland firm than a Nashville firm with a Vandy degree (And in this hypo both markets have equal amount of employment opportunities)?


I think Grizz overstates it a little; being in Nashville means you have a chance to connect with the community- bar meetings, interaction with local attorneys, etc. You don't HAVE to be from Nashville to get a job there, though it certainly helps a big deal.

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Grizz
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Re: Vandy outside of the South

Postby Grizz » Thu Jan 05, 2012 12:11 am

I actually didn't say anything about Nashville. But at least for large firms, Nashville is VERY competitive among Vanderbilt students, and a lot of the people who get those jobs have stellar grades and/or ties. Doable, but quite difficult, at least for large firms (which I know the best).

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jeeptiger09
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Re: Vandy outside of the South

Postby jeeptiger09 » Thu Jan 05, 2012 1:19 am

American_in_China wrote:I think Grizz overstates it a little; being in Nashville means you have a chance to connect with the community- bar meetings, interaction with local attorneys, etc. You don't HAVE to be from Nashville to get a job there, though it certainly helps a big deal.


Sorry to troll here, but you're pretty much wrong. Without having significant ties, you won't get Nashville biglaw. And the midlaw/boutiques are even harder on ties.

HTH.

American_in_China
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Re: Vandy outside of the South

Postby American_in_China » Thu Jan 05, 2012 4:45 am

jeeptiger09 wrote:
American_in_China wrote:I think Grizz overstates it a little; being in Nashville means you have a chance to connect with the community- bar meetings, interaction with local attorneys, etc. You don't HAVE to be from Nashville to get a job there, though it certainly helps a big deal.


Sorry to troll here, but you're pretty much wrong. Without having significant ties, you won't get Nashville biglaw. And the midlaw/boutiques are even harder on ties.

HTH.


Vandy takes in about 25 people from Tennessee each year, correct? And there are a little over 50 SA positions at the big firms, correct? Unless the other 25 are all coming from people at other law schools who have Nashville ties, arithmetic proves you wrong. And that's only including places like Boult Cummings, not the boutiques and mid sized firms.

And my point was that 3 years is more than long enough to network with local attorneys. Are you honestly trying to say that NO ONE can make it in Nashville unless they're from Nashville? Because that's just not true.

And no offense, Nashville's my home city, I'm tied in with the legal community through my father, and know personally partners at major firms because I grew up with their kids. Don't condescend to me about the hiring practices of firms. I talked to every lawyer I knew before pursuing law school, about a huge range of topics, including the hiring practices. I'm not some dumbass from another city pulling things out of my ass.

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jeeptiger09
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Re: Vandy outside of the South

Postby jeeptiger09 » Thu Jan 05, 2012 11:54 am

American_in_China wrote:Vandy takes in about 25 people from Tennessee each year, correct? And there are a little over 50 SA positions at the big firms, correct? Unless the other 25 are all coming from people at other law schools who have Nashville ties, arithmetic proves you wrong. And that's only including places like Boult Cummings, not the boutiques and mid sized firms.


First of all, Boult Cummings merged--three years ago. It's Bradley Arant Boult Cummings now. Also, the midsize firms basically don't hire anymore. Maybe 1 or 2 SAs each year. RWJ won't even look at you unless you were basically born in Nashville.

Last year Nashville firms had 35 SAs and 17 entry-level attorneys got jobs. It's certainly not a thriving market. Hell, Waller, one of the four biggest firms in town, cut its summer program. Miller's class last year was 4. The year before that, it was 5 and they offered 2. BABC and Bass are the only two biglaw firms left, and account for about 25 of the 35ish SA jobs (and 10 were 1L jobs).

Things have changed. Because the economy hit the fan and firms decided to cut their classes/programs, ties became significantly more valuable. Doesn't mean you 100% can't get Nash biglaw if you're not from there, but why would firms take a person who might be a flight risk 3-4 years down the line when they can get someone with ties?

American_in_China wrote:And no offense, Nashville's my home city, I'm tied in with the legal community through my father, and know personally partners at major firms because I grew up with their kids. Don't condescend to me about the hiring practices of firms. I talked to every lawyer I knew before pursuing law school, about a huge range of topics, including the hiring practices. I'm not some dumbass from another city pulling things out of my ass.


Calm.Down.




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