bilbobaggins wrote: Yes, every time one of my friends related their "choosing a law school" experience to me I demanded they prove that they got into higher ranked schools than Boalt.
I see. Your naivete is very adorable.
bilbobaggins wrote: Yes, every time one of my friends related their "choosing a law school" experience to me I demanded they prove that they got into higher ranked schools than Boalt.
pop_pop_pop wrote: Of course; I was joking. I was providing a snarky reply to someone else's snarky (and strange?) comment. I don't think anyone would judge an entire student body off of a singular comment, especially on an Internet message board. (Still, the comment certainly didn't debunk any stereotypes.)
pop_pop_pop wrote: Okay, thanks! That actually sounds similar to our Ivy undergrad experience, so if HLS is similar in that respect, she may very well enjoy it and be able to find her niche.
pop_pop_pop wrote:Curious1 wrote:pop_pop_pop wrote:lol, no, I'm not a "flame"/"troll". This may seem like a really easy question for almost everyone (Harvard, obviously!), but as a previous Berkeley student even said, s/he has met numerous Berkeley students who chose it over HYS, so it does happen. Believe it or not - whether this is important to others here or not - a significant factor in my friend's decision is the "fit" of the school, and not solely career prospects afterwards. So, if she feels like she "meshes" better with the student body of one, then that would really tip the scale in favor of that school. "Fit" is probably her number one factor, which is why I wanted to post here to see if students from Berkeley felt that it is indeed a laid back environment (relative to other law schools), or if Harvard students felt that the statements I made about about it were true/false. (So far, I really appreciate everyone's insight! The Berkeley posters especially have helped to show that is really is the type of place my friend would probably love.) Obviously Harvard's "name" is stronger, so the fact that she isn't automatically choosing Harvard should indicate that she is very interested in factors besides "name brand" and how far that may take her.
I hope your friend goes to Berkeley. She doesn't sound like the kind of person I want to meet.
If you're a Harvard student and don't like meeting people described as generous, loving, and passionate, then Berkeley probably is a better fit for her.
Blessedassurance wrote:pop_pop_pop wrote: Of course; I was joking. I was providing a snarky reply to someone else's snarky (and strange?) comment. I don't think anyone would judge an entire student body off of a singular comment, especially on an Internet message board. (Still, the comment certainly didn't debunk any stereotypes.)
Slow down, PETA. The poster in question is not a current student as HLS. Not yet anyways.
Curious1 wrote:pop_pop_pop wrote:Curious1 wrote:pop_pop_pop wrote:lol, no, I'm not a "flame"/"troll". This may seem like a really easy question for almost everyone (Harvard, obviously!), but as a previous Berkeley student even said, s/he has met numerous Berkeley students who chose it over HYS, so it does happen. Believe it or not - whether this is important to others here or not - a significant factor in my friend's decision is the "fit" of the school, and not solely career prospects afterwards. So, if she feels like she "meshes" better with the student body of one, then that would really tip the scale in favor of that school. "Fit" is probably her number one factor, which is why I wanted to post here to see if students from Berkeley felt that it is indeed a laid back environment (relative to other law schools), or if Harvard students felt that the statements I made about about it were true/false. (So far, I really appreciate everyone's insight! The Berkeley posters especially have helped to show that is really is the type of place my friend would probably love.) Obviously Harvard's "name" is stronger, so the fact that she isn't automatically choosing Harvard should indicate that she is very interested in factors besides "name brand" and how far that may take her.
I hope your friend goes to Berkeley. She doesn't sound like the kind of person I want to meet.
If you're a Harvard student and don't like meeting people described as generous, loving, and passionate, then Berkeley probably is a better fit for her.
Generous, passionate as Loving are fine. But I don't want to meet someone clearly lacking ambition and drive. Not to mention someone unbelievably naive. There are more trees to hug at Berkeley. Go there
Curious1 wrote:I hope your friend goes to Berkeley. She doesn't sound like the kind of person I want to meet.
NewLobo wrote:This has to be a troll.
NewLobo wrote:This has to be a troll.
NewLobo wrote:This has to be a troll.
curiouscat wrote:It's a reasonable enough question. Some of the replies have been snarkier than necessary, not sure why.
Anyways, OP, if your friend got into Harvard and Berkeley, there's a good chance she has a number of other acceptances coming her way. Unless Harvard and Berkeley are undoubtedly her top two choices, I recommend that she wait a little while before narrowing her debate to those the two. Who knows - in a couple of weeks, she might get in somewhere else that is a much better "fit" for her than either one and makes this whole Berk vs HLS comparison irrelevant.
At any rate, she should definitely be looking beyond the stereotypes at both schools (as posters noted, there are all sorts at both). I agree that the fact that PI jobs are so hard to get makes the HLS edge pretty significant. Berkeley's reputation doesn't necessarily translate into the kinds of opportunities she's going to need to do what she hopes to do in the future.
3v3ryth1ng wrote:Curious1 wrote:I hope your friend goes to Berkeley. She doesn't sound like the kind of person I want to meet.
... and this guy^ is living proof that even good grades, a great LSAT and a T14 degree can't buy you a personality. I hope a Cooley grad slaps you in front of your parents. Maybe then you'll learn to be respectful, because apparently neither they, nor HYS taught you that.
Curious1 wrote:pop_pop_pop wrote:Curious1 wrote:pop_pop_pop wrote:lol, no, I'm not a "flame"/"troll". This may seem like a really easy question for almost everyone (Harvard, obviously!), but as a previous Berkeley student even said, s/he has met numerous Berkeley students who chose it over HYS, so it does happen. Believe it or not - whether this is important to others here or not - a significant factor in my friend's decision is the "fit" of the school, and not solely career prospects afterwards. So, if she feels like she "meshes" better with the student body of one, then that would really tip the scale in favor of that school. "Fit" is probably her number one factor, which is why I wanted to post here to see if students from Berkeley felt that it is indeed a laid back environment (relative to other law schools), or if Harvard students felt that the statements I made about about it were true/false. (So far, I really appreciate everyone's insight! The Berkeley posters especially have helped to show that is really is the type of place my friend would probably love.) Obviously Harvard's "name" is stronger, so the fact that she isn't automatically choosing Harvard should indicate that she is very interested in factors besides "name brand" and how far that may take her.
I hope your friend goes to Berkeley. She doesn't sound like the kind of person I want to meet.
If you're a Harvard student and don't like meeting people described as generous, loving, and passionate, then Berkeley probably is a better fit for her.
Generous, passionate as Loving are fine. But I don't want to meet someone clearly lacking ambition and drive. Not to mention someone unbelievably naive. There are more trees to hug at Berkeley. Go there
wow. In at Harvard for like a fucking week and already acting like an asshole veteran spokesman. You seemed like a decent individual before this crap.
IAFG wrote:pop_pop_pop wrote:
She is mostly unconcerned with prestige and does not like things pretentious, uppity, or "stuffy".
Maybe she doesn't want to be a lawyer then. Even public interest employers fucking love prestige. And Berkeley Law isn't laid back. No law school is.
Curious1 wrote:Generous, passionate as Loving are fine. But I don't want to meet someone clearly lacking ambition and drive. Not to mention someone unbelievably naive. There are more trees to hug at Berkeley. Go there
Blessedassurance wrote:bilbobaggins wrote: Yes, every time one of my friends related their "choosing a law school" experience to me I demanded they prove that they got into higher ranked schools than Boalt.
I see. Your naivete is very adorable.
bilbobaggins wrote: Hardly. There's this incredible world outside of TLS where people don't make decisions based solely on US News ranking. At Boalt you don't look like hot shit bragging about where else you could have gotten into. The people I spoke to are sincere and have all done very well, have jobs, etc.
target wrote:pop_pop_pop wrote:ebeth wrote:HLS 1L here, just wanted to say that my classmates are neither pretentious nor ultra competitive. I only know about my section, but I can't say enough about how awesome the people are.
Great! I think the more she talks to HLS students, the more her preconceived notions may be debunked. I think she may be conflating Harvard undergrads (many of whom she knows, and almost all of whom are pretentious and arrogant), but of course graduate and undergraduate student bodies can be significantly different. I will probably accompany her on a trip to Harvard in the spring and hopefully by talking to HLS students, she/we will be able to get a better feel for what they are like.
Trust me when I say this, there are many more pretentious douchebag at berkeley thanone may think. Now, there are many cool, down to earth people there too.
So my point is both Harvard and Berkeley are big schools (Berkeley law is still relatively large even though it's smaller than Harvard), and you friend may not have to worry about the pretentious culture. Someone brought up the weather issue. My advice is to look hard at that. Berkeley's weather is no sunshine 365 days per year. But, I'd pick Berkeley's breezy weather over a possibility of a Nor'easter every damn time.
tomwatts wrote:Two things automatically make this thread suspect, namely 1) the OP is asking about this for a "friend" and 2) the OP gives strong indications of wanting to be told that Berkeley will be better for this "friend" and really not wanting to hear that Harvard will be better. Nevertheless, under the assumption that this is sincere...
For background: I'm a 1L at HLS. I'm from San Francisco but didn't apply to Boalt because I did five years of undergrad at Berkeley and lived in the same apartment for three years after graduating. Eight years was enough, at least for the moment. I loved being in Berkeley, but I wanted to get a different perspective before I come back to San Francisco (as is likely after law school).
The undergrad population at Harvard College is really different from the population at the law school. Maybe I was expecting far higher levels of snobbery than was realistic and HLS just beat my expectations, but I doubt it. My section has been really great, and I haven't met more than three or four people in the whole school so far who've been annoying, all outside my section. I quite like the Harvard undergrads I've met, but I can see how some of them might grate a little on people who are not me. HLS is different, though.
The difficulty in giving advice for this specific situation, though, is that nothing that the OP has mentioned is particularly decisive in either direction. To wit:
* HLS is maybe twice as big as Boalt, which cuts both ways: HLS has a bunch of overlapping communities (your section, any student groups or journals you join, etc.), whereas Boalt may be a more unified, singular community (but even at Boalt's size, there are still sub-groups). Size doesn't immediately determine quality of life either way; I prefer the large size at HLS.
* Size may relate to the alumni network, though. HLS has grads doing more or less everything you can imagine, more or less anywhere you can imagine. Boalt has half as many grads, and they're probably more concentrated in California.
* HLS and Boalt have very similar grading systems. And as you might expect from law schools, they offer fairly similar classes.
* They're obviously in different locations geographically, but for someone who may want to be in California (Boalt) and may want to be in the PA/DE/MD area (Harvard), uh, that's a toss-up.
* The immediate area of both campuses is rather similar: Cambridge is a little more upscale than Berkeley (with a correspondingly higher cost of living), but they're both nice college towns with liberal reputations.
* Being "mostly unconcerned with prestige" is fun and all, but public interest jobs relating to interesting social issues are among the hardest jobs in the legal profession to get, and prestige counts rather a lot for that, as has been pointed out. Even so, this doesn't strongly change the game; we're talking Harvard and Berkeley, both great schools, not Harvard and Unaccredited Law University. Harvard may have a slight edge, but it's slight.
* Debt might be a consideration. The price tags on H and B are similar, but not exactly the same. Neither gives much merit aid (H none, B minimal). I'm not sure whether their need-based financial aid packages differ at all; HLS has a ridiculously large endowment, but it mostly goes towards the summer funding (SPIF) and the LRAP, as below.
* Their Loan Repayment Assistance Programs may be different. I don't know a thing about B's LRAP, but H's LRAP (called LIPP) is phenomenal. Basically, if you don't make very much money, but you get a full-time job doing something law-related (defined fairly broadly), you don't have to pay back much of your loans, if any.
Soooooo... this is not any sort of obvious choice. This comes down to the details of, say, comparing LRAPs, campus visits, etc. I'm going to go with a solid "Your 'friend' will be fine at either place" recommendation.
Oh, and obviously, post here or PM me if you want more info on my experience at either school.
Blessedassurance wrote:bilbobaggins wrote: Hardly. There's this incredible world outside of TLS where people don't make decisions based solely on US News ranking. At Boalt you don't look like hot shit bragging about where else you could have gotten into. The people I spoke to are sincere and have all done very well, have jobs, etc.
Why do I get the feeling you and your friend are one and the same? Kinda like the whole I-and-the-father-are-one or Holy Trinity concept. Merry Christmas, I see what you did there.
bilbobaggins wrote: Yeah, and you're a fucking troll. Great job!
Boggs wrote:target wrote:pop_pop_pop wrote:ebeth wrote:HLS 1L here, just wanted to say that my classmates are neither pretentious nor ultra competitive. I only know about my section, but I can't say enough about how awesome the people are.
Great! I think the more she talks to HLS students, the more her preconceived notions may be debunked. I think she may be conflating Harvard undergrads (many of whom she knows, and almost all of whom are pretentious and arrogant), but of course graduate and undergraduate student bodies can be significantly different. I will probably accompany her on a trip to Harvard in the spring and hopefully by talking to HLS students, she/we will be able to get a better feel for what they are like.
Trust me when I say this, there are many more pretentious douchebag at berkeley thanone may think. Now, there are many cool, down to earth people there too.
So my point is both Harvard and Berkeley are big schools (Berkeley law is still relatively large even though it's smaller than Harvard), and you friend may not have to worry about the pretentious culture. Someone brought up the weather issue. My advice is to look hard at that. Berkeley's weather is no sunshine 365 days per year. But, I'd pick Berkeley's breezy weather over a possibility of a Nor'easter every damn time.
Maybe we're just letting this extreme inaccuracy go, but as someone who thought somewhat along these lines when I moved to Berkeley, I thought I'd speak up. I'm not sure if I've seen as much winter sunshine in my life as I have at Berkeley. Granted, I haven't been through Spring Semester yet, but Fall was spectacular. It seems like we had barely any rain at all.
I would never select a law school on weather though; after all, I miss snow.
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