TFA vs. Teaching

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happyshapy
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Re: TFA vs. Teaching

Postby happyshapy » Sun Dec 18, 2011 11:16 pm

Tiago Splitter wrote:
happyshapy wrote:I think it's laughable that adcomms in anyway think teaching is worth less as work experience then food service, retail, or even sales and marketing.

Adcomms are not the same "elite" people who look down on teaching like the previous person I quoted was talking about.


I didn't say adcomms, or anyone else, think that. I said it was funny, and typical, for a teacher to equate any knock on their profession as the equivalent of bigotry and hatred of the poor.

Well I guess you misunderstood my point. A lot of people who are considered "elite" look down the poor and minorities, but adcomms obviously don't. A lot of "elite" people look down on teaching but I don't think adcomms think this way. I think it's a mistake to equate the opinions of so called "elite" people on the subject of job prestige to the opinions of adcomms, who are obviously different.
Last edited by happyshapy on Sun Dec 18, 2011 11:20 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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emkay625
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Re: TFA vs. Teaching

Postby emkay625 » Sun Dec 18, 2011 11:17 pm

3v3ryth1ng wrote:
emkay625 wrote:
3v3ryth1ng wrote:Well, now that we've departed from the original topic...
It probably makes a difference whether your teaching experience (or work experience in general) involved leadership, advancement, or making decisions of consequence in some capacity. If you taught "study skills" and basically baby sat for 4 years, I'm sure that would matter less than if you designed your school's AP calculus curriculum or guided your students to a national debate championship.


agreed. none of my 3 interviews (vanderbilt, georgetown, nu) asked about tfa/teaching in general. they did ask about specific achievements listed under that tfa bullet.

although, i would not describe teaching any subject in any school (even if it was a wealthy district) as study skills/babysitting. it's laughable that you wrote that. (aren't you a teacher? you know that's not how it is....)


"Study Skills" was the title of a course I had when I was in high school. They put me in a room away from the other kids 3 times a week. I would typically draw, or sleep off a hangover.
You can't honestly rename a course like that on your resume. Anyone somewhat familiar with educations knows that "study skills/support/opportunities" are euphemisms for babysitting class, or at least "special education."


being a SpEd teacher is much, much more difficult than being a gen-ed teacher. (and no, i am not a SpEd teacher). SpEd is much different than it was even 5 years ago.

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3v3ryth1ng
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Re: TFA vs. Teaching

Postby 3v3ryth1ng » Sun Dec 18, 2011 11:18 pm

Tiago Splitter wrote:
happyshapy wrote:I think it's laughable that adcomms in anyway think teaching is worth less as work experience then food service, retail, or even sales and marketing.

Adcomms are not the same "elite" people who look down on teaching like the previous person I quoted was talking about.


I didn't say adcomms, or anyone else, think that. I said it was funny, and typical, for a teacher to equate any knock on their profession as the equivalent of bigotry and hatred of the poor.


Well, although I can foresee an admissions officer having negative views about teachers, I'm well aware that people who hate on public education/teachers in general are the same people who hate social programs/welfare/taxes/Obama/Democrats, and generally believe poverty is caused by laziness. "Teacher are overpaid" might as well be code for "I'm voting for the Tea Party." I wouldn't expect that view from any school that cites public interest as a major concern.

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IAFG
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Re: TFA vs. Teaching

Postby IAFG » Sun Dec 18, 2011 11:22 pm

3v3ryth1ng wrote: "Teacher are overpaid" might as well be code for "I'm voting for the Tea Party."

Or else, "I have worked in education."

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3v3ryth1ng
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Re: TFA vs. Teaching

Postby 3v3ryth1ng » Sun Dec 18, 2011 11:23 pm

emkay625 wrote:
3v3ryth1ng wrote:
emkay625 wrote:
3v3ryth1ng wrote:Well, now that we've departed from the original topic...
It probably makes a difference whether your teaching experience (or work experience in general) involved leadership, advancement, or making decisions of consequence in some capacity. If you taught "study skills" and basically baby sat for 4 years, I'm sure that would matter less than if you designed your school's AP calculus curriculum or guided your students to a national debate championship.


agreed. none of my 3 interviews (vanderbilt, georgetown, nu) asked about tfa/teaching in general. they did ask about specific achievements listed under that tfa bullet.

although, i would not describe teaching any subject in any school (even if it was a wealthy district) as study skills/babysitting. it's laughable that you wrote that. (aren't you a teacher? you know that's not how it is....)


"Study Skills" was the title of a course I had when I was in high school. They put me in a room away from the other kids 3 times a week. I would typically draw, or sleep off a hangover.
You can't honestly rename a course like that on your resume. Anyone somewhat familiar with educations knows that "study skills/support/opportunities" are euphemisms for babysitting class, or at least "special education."


being a SpEd teacher is much, much more difficult than being a gen-ed teacher. (and no, i am not a SpEd teacher). SpEd is much different than it was even 5 years ago.


Agreed. You and I are privy to this information, but I think the perception exists that special education is easier. The best teachers are needed there, and unfortunately that's not where the best teachers usually go.

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3v3ryth1ng
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Re: TFA vs. Teaching

Postby 3v3ryth1ng » Sun Dec 18, 2011 11:24 pm

IAFG wrote:
3v3ryth1ng wrote: "Teacher are overpaid" might as well be code for "I'm voting for the Tea Party."

Or else, "I have worked in education."


I doubt anyone who had any success teaching would say that.

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moneybagsphd
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Re: TFA vs. Teaching

Postby moneybagsphd » Sun Dec 18, 2011 11:31 pm

ITT: People have opinions about the state of education

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IAFG
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Re: TFA vs. Teaching

Postby IAFG » Sun Dec 18, 2011 11:37 pm

3v3ryth1ng wrote:
IAFG wrote:
3v3ryth1ng wrote: "Teacher are overpaid" might as well be code for "I'm voting for the Tea Party."

Or else, "I have worked in education."


I doubt anyone who had any success teaching would say that.

Oh? Well that's a bit different than "voting for the Tea Party" now isn't it? Why would the observers direct involvement with teaching have anything to do with their ability to form an opinion about teacher salaries?

I've worked in two different school systems (as an educator and in administration) and in non-education industries. When you take into account the hours, benefits and education inflation in this country, teachers are generally overpaid.
Last edited by IAFG on Sun Dec 18, 2011 11:38 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Tiago Splitter
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Re: TFA vs. Teaching

Postby Tiago Splitter » Sun Dec 18, 2011 11:38 pm

IAFG wrote:
3v3ryth1ng wrote: "Teacher are overpaid" might as well be code for "I'm voting for the Tea Party."

Or else, "I have worked in education."


I like this one.

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emkay625
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Re: TFA vs. Teaching

Postby emkay625 » Sun Dec 18, 2011 11:48 pm

IAFG wrote:
3v3ryth1ng wrote:
IAFG wrote:
3v3ryth1ng wrote: "Teacher are overpaid" might as well be code for "I'm voting for the Tea Party."

Or else, "I have worked in education."


I doubt anyone who had any success teaching would say that.

Oh? Well that's a bit different than "voting for the Tea Party" now isn't it? Why would the observers direct involvement with teaching have anything to do with their ability to form an opinion about teacher salaries?

I've worked in two different school systems (as an educator and in administration) and in non-education industries. When you take into account the hours, benefits and education inflation in this country, teachers are generally overpaid.


Hours? Really? I work approximately 12 hours on a light day, 15 - 16 on a hard day.

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3v3ryth1ng
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Re: TFA vs. Teaching

Postby 3v3ryth1ng » Sun Dec 18, 2011 11:49 pm

IAFG wrote:I've worked in two different school systems (as an educator and in administration) and in non-education industries. When you take into account the hours, benefits and education inflation in this country, teachers are generally overpaid.


I'm not one to overblow the contributions teachers make, because the ones who suck generally produce an all-aorund net loss, but if you think you were overpaid, it's probably because you weren't any good.

On the other hand, when I went out this weekend, I met my friend's friend who sells spam software. He makes 200k a year. My other friend, the DJ, makes 60k, but he's got a lot of flexibility, and he takes a trip once a year. My other buddy just bought a house. He's sells lab equipment, and he runs a t-shirt business on the side, also with totally flexible hours. I'm not complaining, because I chose this job and this life. But almost everyone I know makes more than the average teacher, but with an easier schedule. Tell me what you did in your non-education job. I'm just curious why you think your time was worth so much.
Last edited by 3v3ryth1ng on Sun Dec 18, 2011 11:57 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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IAFG
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Re: TFA vs. Teaching

Postby IAFG » Sun Dec 18, 2011 11:51 pm

emkay625 wrote:Hours? Really? I work approximately 12 hours on a light day, 15 - 16 on a hard day.

I believe you. That's not what the median teacher at my schools did. Not even close.

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IAFG
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Re: TFA vs. Teaching

Postby IAFG » Sun Dec 18, 2011 11:52 pm

3v3ryth1ng wrote:
IAFG wrote:I've worked in two different school systems (as an educator and in administration) and in non-education industries. When you take into account the hours, benefits and education inflation in this country, teachers are generally overpaid.


I'm not one to overblow the contributions teachers make, because the ones who suck generally produce an all-aorund net loss, but if you think you were overpaid, it's probably because you weren't any good.

I don't know what you mean by an "all-around net loss," but I can observe things outside myself.

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happyshapy
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Re: TFA vs. Teaching

Postby happyshapy » Sun Dec 18, 2011 11:52 pm

emkay625 wrote:
IAFG wrote:
3v3ryth1ng wrote:
IAFG wrote:Or else, "I have worked in education."


I doubt anyone who had any success teaching would say that.

Oh? Well that's a bit different than "voting for the Tea Party" now isn't it? Why would the observers direct involvement with teaching have anything to do with their ability to form an opinion about teacher salaries?

I've worked in two different school systems (as an educator and in administration) and in non-education industries. When you take into account the hours, benefits and education inflation in this country, teachers are generally overpaid.


Hours? Really? I work approximately 12 hours on a light day, 15 - 16 on a hard day.

And the best part is getting paid for only half of it.

thederangedwang
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Re: TFA vs. Teaching

Postby thederangedwang » Sun Dec 18, 2011 11:52 pm

IAFG wrote:
emkay625 wrote:Hours? Really? I work approximately 12 hours on a light day, 15 - 16 on a hard day.

I believe you. That's not what the median teacher at my schools did. Not even close.

so you based your gross over-generalization on your experience teaching at an atypical school?

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emkay625
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Re: TFA vs. Teaching

Postby emkay625 » Sun Dec 18, 2011 11:54 pm

IAFG wrote:
emkay625 wrote:Hours? Really? I work approximately 12 hours on a light day, 15 - 16 on a hard day.

I believe you. That's not what the median teacher at my schools did. Not even close.


Ah. Herein lies the problem. I do not like the current lockstep system. I would support a combination of merit pay, duty pay, and assignment pay.

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IAFG
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Re: TFA vs. Teaching

Postby IAFG » Sun Dec 18, 2011 11:54 pm

thederangedwang wrote:
IAFG wrote:
emkay625 wrote:Hours? Really? I work approximately 12 hours on a light day, 15 - 16 on a hard day.

I believe you. That's not what the median teacher at my schools did. Not even close.

so you based your generalization on your experience teaching at an atypical school?

I worked at one school and also at a district office (with 5 elementary schools, 3 middle schools and 1 high school).

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IAFG
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Re: TFA vs. Teaching

Postby IAFG » Sun Dec 18, 2011 11:57 pm

emkay625 wrote:
IAFG wrote:
emkay625 wrote:Hours? Really? I work approximately 12 hours on a light day, 15 - 16 on a hard day.

I believe you. That's not what the median teacher at my schools did. Not even close.


Ah. Herein lies the problem. I do not like the current lockstep system. I would support a combination of merit pay, duty pay, and assignment pay.

I would be content if we just eliminated public unions. The charter schools are doing really neat things, and not only in curriculum. There are lots of ways to make it better. It's upsetting that the really great teachers have no opportunities for financial advancement, while the lazy burn-outs with multiple reprimands get paid more based on seniority. I also think that system breeds a bad culture and discourages people from coming to or staying in ed.

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3v3ryth1ng
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Re: TFA vs. Teaching

Postby 3v3ryth1ng » Mon Dec 19, 2011 12:04 am

IAFG wrote:
3v3ryth1ng wrote:
IAFG wrote:I've worked in two different school systems (as an educator and in administration) and in non-education industries. When you take into account the hours, benefits and education inflation in this country, teachers are generally overpaid.


I'm not one to overblow the contributions teachers make, because the ones who suck generally produce an all-aorund net loss, but if you think you were overpaid, it's probably because you weren't any good.

I don't know what you mean by an "all-around net loss," but I can observe things outside myself.


I think that if you lock kids in a room with a shitty teacher, they will come out WORSE than if they had just stayed home (in terms of academic skills and discipline). Add to that the fact that this teacher will cost the state about 50K or so, and that this teacher is probably killing the school's culture... I'd call him/her an all-around net loss for society.

Of course you're entitled to your opinion. I'm just pointing out the fact that I've never heard a good teacher say they were overpaid.

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IAFG
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Re: TFA vs. Teaching

Postby IAFG » Mon Dec 19, 2011 12:07 am

3v3ryth1ng wrote:I think that if you lock kids in a room with a shitty teacher, they will come out WORSE than if they had just stayed home (in terms of academic skills and discipline). Add to that the fact that this teacher will cost the state about 50K or so, and that this teacher is probably killing the school's culture... I'd call him/her an all-around net loss for society.

Of course you're entitled to your opinion. I'm just pointing out the fact that I've never heard a good teacher say they were overpaid.

I've never heard a good CEO say they were overpaid, but others might disagree for a variety of reasons. My own skill or lack thereof has not one thing to do with it, so drop the ad hominems.

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happyshapy
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Re: TFA vs. Teaching

Postby happyshapy » Mon Dec 19, 2011 12:14 am

IAFG wrote:
emkay625 wrote:
IAFG wrote:
emkay625 wrote:Hours? Really? I work approximately 12 hours on a light day, 15 - 16 on a hard day.

I believe you. That's not what the median teacher at my schools did. Not even close.


Ah. Herein lies the problem. I do not like the current lockstep system. I would support a combination of merit pay, duty pay, and assignment pay.

I would be content if we just eliminated public unions. The charter schools are doing really neat things, and not only in curriculum. There are lots of ways to make it better. It's upsetting that the really great teachers have no opportunities for financial advancement, while the lazy burn-outs with multiple reprimands get paid more based on seniority. I also think that system breeds a bad culture and discourages people from coming to or staying in ed.

I would agree with this. I think there are a lot of really good schools that pay really well. The high school I went to generally pays teachers 150k, but most of them have phDs from ivies. I think that 150k is pretty deserving, because they were incredible teachers. The tax payers didn't mind the teacher salaries and even encouraged it at school board meetings. On the other hand you have teachers in poor school districts who are lucky to make 35k with zero respect from parents and students. If you're completely undervalued and underpaid why are you going to do beyond the bare minimum? It's really difficult to put in extra hours, time, and even money (I often have to pay out of pocket for special projects for my kids), and get very little back in terms of pay, advancement, or recognition. I think if there were more incentives for good teachers to keep doing great work things would be better. I don't think bad teachers get into the profession because they're lazy, I think the way the system is set up invites this quality after time.

But I think this problem requires more money and respect for great teachers, and instead the response is teachers are overpaid and lazy and it's all the unions fault. I just don't think that's true.

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3v3ryth1ng
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Re: TFA vs. Teaching

Postby 3v3ryth1ng » Mon Dec 19, 2011 12:19 am

IAFG wrote:
emkay625 wrote:
IAFG wrote:
emkay625 wrote:Hours? Really? I work approximately 12 hours on a light day, 15 - 16 on a hard day.

I believe you. That's not what the median teacher at my schools did. Not even close.


Ah. Herein lies the problem. I do not like the current lockstep system. I would support a combination of merit pay, duty pay, and assignment pay.

I would be content if we just eliminated public unions. The charter schools are doing really neat things, and not only in curriculum. There are lots of ways to make it better. It's upsetting that the really great teachers have no opportunities for financial advancement, while the lazy burn-outs with multiple reprimands get paid more based on seniority. I also think that system breeds a bad culture and discourages people from coming to or staying in ed.


While I don't like the overall effect unions have on education, it's an inherently political job, and you'd have a hard time attracting the best minds out there if they weren't protected (to a degree) from capricious political headwinds. If you want to get rid of unions, there should be some sort of built in protection against angry soccer moms. They have this for some judges, so I don't see why it's not applicable here.

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IAFG
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Re: TFA vs. Teaching

Postby IAFG » Mon Dec 19, 2011 12:20 am

happyshapy wrote: I think if there were more incentives for good teachers to keep doing great work things would be better.

There's a lot of research that suggests that bonuses for good work don't really improve outcomes. I think we should just have high expectations, high salaries, and fire the teachers who can't or don't meet those expectations. [/quote]

I don't think bad teachers get into the profession because they're lazy, I think the way the system is set up invites this quality after time.

Some come because their lazy. Some get frustrated and burn out and get bad. There are lots of ways to fail

But I think this problem requires more money and respect for great teachers, and instead the response is teachers are overpaid and lazy and it's all the unions fault. I just don't think that's true.

Both things can be true at the same time: the population of teachers in the system can currently be overpaid and it can be the fault of unions, but we can also need to pay and respect teachers more.

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IAFG
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Re: TFA vs. Teaching

Postby IAFG » Mon Dec 19, 2011 12:22 am

3v3ryth1ng wrote:While I don't like the overall effect unions have on education, it's an inherently political job, and you'd have a hard time attracting the best minds out there if they weren't protected (to a degree) from capricious political headwinds. If you want to get rid of unions, there should be some sort of built in protection against angry soccer moms. They have this for some judges, so I don't see why it's not applicable here.

I don't really think teaching is any more political than private sector jobs.

hotchkiss1
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Re: TFA vs. Teaching

Postby hotchkiss1 » Mon Dec 19, 2011 12:23 am

viacavour wrote:I think you have to recognize that TFA and a career in teaching aren't the same thing. TFA intends for their corps members to go to get careers in law in the government. The idea here is that TFA alumni will continue to advocate for children in low income communities and continue to make a difference once they have left teaching.

I am in no way arguing that this actually occurs, just that this is their stated objective.



What can you expect reading this funny thread, someone conjecturing about words on paper, most bloggers know damn well that opinion is like asshole, .... People invented language for a reason and it is not about stating nonsense in an organized fashion




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