As if we needed another reason not to attend law school...

(Applications Advice, Letters of Recommendation . . . )
User avatar
sach1282
Posts: 330
Joined: Sun Oct 18, 2009 1:50 pm

As if we needed another reason not to attend law school...

Postby sach1282 » Tue Dec 13, 2011 9:44 pm

I found an article recently that claims, essentially, most lawyers will never even be able to buy a house.

The author says that in order to have "good financial stability", (that term is defined in the article), someone who goes to a school with a tuition of $48,000 needs to have an annual salary of $288,000. :shock:


The author makes really conservative assumptions, such as no other undergraduate debt, no consumer debt, the ability to pay for living expenses out of pocket...

Here's the link:

http://www.law.com/jsp/nlj/PubArticleNL ... slreturn=1

Edit: Sorry for the repost, mods feel free to lock/delete.
Last edited by sach1282 on Tue Dec 13, 2011 9:50 pm, edited 3 times in total.

User avatar
ggibelli
Posts: 215
Joined: Mon Jan 03, 2011 11:12 pm

Re: As if we needed another reason not to attend law school...

Postby ggibelli » Tue Dec 13, 2011 9:44 pm


User avatar
Mr. Pancakes
Posts: 1234
Joined: Thu Nov 24, 2011 1:11 pm

Re: As if we needed another reason not to attend law school...

Postby Mr. Pancakes » Tue Dec 13, 2011 10:05 pm

I've been out of undergrad for a bit and I'm sitting with a job making under 40k a year. I've looked all over the country for better jobs and I'm not able to find one. after examining things at my job and our 3% raise each year, I have realized that what I am doing just isn't going to cut the mustard. I would rather take a risk and have the chance to increase my earning potential for the next 35 years rather than scoot by in life maxing out at 60k a year. I may not make a whole lot more my first year out of law school but I will have the potential to make more than 40k a year, even though there is a chance that I won't. If getting a law degree only increases my income by 10k a year it will be worth it. Hell, life is about taking risks. If you think it's too risky then do something else, but my bachelors degree sure as hell isn't giving me a chance to save or have enough money to raise a family if I choose to in the future. I have always wanted to be a lawyer and I will become a lawyer. If you aren't sure if it's a good idea then go out and try to find a satisfying job with your undergraduate degree(even masters) that also pays the bills. Shit's weak right now... shit's weak.

User avatar
MachineLemon
Posts: 375
Joined: Thu Oct 20, 2011 9:47 am

Re: As if we needed another reason not to attend law school...

Postby MachineLemon » Tue Dec 13, 2011 10:19 pm

Mr. Pancakes wrote:I've been out of undergrad for a bit and I'm sitting with a job making under 40k a year. I've looked all over the country for better jobs and I'm not able to find one. after examining things at my job and our 3% raise each year, I have realized that what I am doing just isn't going to cut the mustard. I would rather take a risk and have the chance to increase my earning potential for the next 35 years rather than scoot by in life maxing out at 60k a year. I may not make a whole lot more my first year out of law school but I will have the potential to make more than 40k a year, even though there is a chance that I won't. If getting a law degree only increases my income by 10k a year it will be worth it. Hell, life is about taking risks. If you think it's too risky then do something else, but my bachelors degree sure as hell isn't giving me a chance to save or have enough money to raise a family if I choose to in the future. I have always wanted to be a lawyer and I will become a lawyer. If you aren't sure if it's a good idea then go out and try to find a satisfying job with your undergraduate degree(even masters) that also pays the bills. Shit's weak right now... shit's weak.


Get an engineering degree too and you'll be set for 4 weeks.

--LinkRemoved-- :!:

It could be much worse for you than it is now... Even with a 10k/year raise consider your 100,000 bill and rapidly accumulating interest.

User avatar
Mr. Pancakes
Posts: 1234
Joined: Thu Nov 24, 2011 1:11 pm

Re: As if we needed another reason not to attend law school...

Postby Mr. Pancakes » Tue Dec 13, 2011 10:33 pm

TylerM wrote:
Mr. Pancakes wrote:I've been out of undergrad for a bit and I'm sitting with a job making under 40k a year. I've looked all over the country for better jobs and I'm not able to find one. after examining things at my job and our 3% raise each year, I have realized that what I am doing just isn't going to cut the mustard. I would rather take a risk and have the chance to increase my earning potential for the next 35 years rather than scoot by in life maxing out at 60k a year. I may not make a whole lot more my first year out of law school but I will have the potential to make more than 40k a year, even though there is a chance that I won't. If getting a law degree only increases my income by 10k a year it will be worth it. Hell, life is about taking risks. If you think it's too risky then do something else, but my bachelors degree sure as hell isn't giving me a chance to save or have enough money to raise a family if I choose to in the future. I have always wanted to be a lawyer and I will become a lawyer. If you aren't sure if it's a good idea then go out and try to find a satisfying job with your undergraduate degree(even masters) that also pays the bills. Shit's weak right now... shit's weak.


Get an engineering degree too and you'll be set for 4 weeks.

--LinkRemoved-- :!:

It could be much worse for you than it is now... Even with a 10k/year raise consider your 100,000 bill and rapidly accumulating interest.


I get that, but even if you were to only have a 10k or so raise a year from law school, which it could be less but most likely more, you would still be coming out even, and I would be doing something I would enjoy, rather than playing a non-funny role from the movie Office Space. I've played out most of my angles and law school is my route. If you're unsure about law school then come work in the cubicle next to mine. Shit, you might even like it, we get free soda and coffee! I am far too competitive of a person to be doing some crap like this. Welp, I better get to bed so I can spend the day listening to Melissa from quality control tell me about her son's T-Ball game.

c3pO4
Posts: 835
Joined: Wed Oct 19, 2011 1:34 pm

Re: As if we needed another reason not to attend law school...

Postby c3pO4 » Tue Dec 13, 2011 10:39 pm

Mr. Pancakes wrote:
I get that, but even if you were to only have a 10k or so raise a year from law school, which it could be less but most likely more, you would still be coming out even, and I would be doing something I would enjoy, rather than playing a non-funny role from the movie Office Space. I've played out most of my angles and law school is my route. If you're unsure about law school then come work in the cubicle next to mine. Shit, you might even like it, we get free soda and coffee! I am far too competitive of a person to be doing some crap like this. Welp, I better get to bed so I can spend the day listening to Melissa from quality control tell me about her son's T-Ball game.


you are completely ignoring debt. you'll be paying 2,000 a month for loans for 10 years after law school. where is that money going to come from? you have a good entry level job and you are young--- don't go to law school. move up in business your ceiling is much higher than 60k. you will regret it.

User avatar
Mr. Pancakes
Posts: 1234
Joined: Thu Nov 24, 2011 1:11 pm

Re: As if we needed another reason not to attend law school...

Postby Mr. Pancakes » Tue Dec 13, 2011 10:50 pm

c3pO4 wrote:
Mr. Pancakes wrote:
I get that, but even if you were to only have a 10k or so raise a year from law school, which it could be less but most likely more, you would still be coming out even, and I would be doing something I would enjoy, rather than playing a non-funny role from the movie Office Space. I've played out most of my angles and law school is my route. If you're unsure about law school then come work in the cubicle next to mine. Shit, you might even like it, we get free soda and coffee! I am far too competitive of a person to be doing some crap like this. Welp, I better get to bed so I can spend the day listening to Melissa from quality control tell me about her son's T-Ball game.


you are completely ignoring debt. you'll be paying 2,000 a month for loans for 10 years after law school. where is that money going to come from? you have a good entry level job and you are young--- don't go to law school. move up in business your ceiling is much higher than 60k. you will regret it.




We'll see how this cycles goes. My debt may not be near that high depending on what my score looks like in a couple weeks.
I've taken time off from my undergrad and have explored what's out there. This is what I have always wanted to do. I understand that It's not for some people. This is where my heart is.

I'll see you in 3 1/2 years. I'll be the guy telling some numbnut not to do what I am about to. :lol:

User avatar
MachineLemon
Posts: 375
Joined: Thu Oct 20, 2011 9:47 am

Re: As if we needed another reason not to attend law school...

Postby MachineLemon » Tue Dec 13, 2011 10:50 pm

c3pO4 wrote:
Mr. Pancakes wrote:
I get that, but even if you were to only have a 10k or so raise a year from law school, which it could be less but most likely more, you would still be coming out even, and I would be doing something I would enjoy, rather than playing a non-funny role from the movie Office Space. I've played out most of my angles and law school is my route. If you're unsure about law school then come work in the cubicle next to mine. Shit, you might even like it, we get free soda and coffee! I am far too competitive of a person to be doing some crap like this. Welp, I better get to bed so I can spend the day listening to Melissa from quality control tell me about her son's T-Ball game.


you are completely ignoring debt. you'll be paying 2,000 a month for loans for 10 years after law school. where is that money going to come from? you have a good entry level job and you are young--- don't go to law school. move up in business your ceiling is much higher than 60k. you will regret it.


Credited.

@ Mr. Pancakes: If you're that competitive and that set on law, use your competitiveness to study for the LSAT and kill it. Thinking about "law school" monolithically is not going benefit you. Your gamble will look less risky if you come back with a 170+. However, do your research now and decide the worst schools you'd attend both with money and without. Stick to that decision. It can be a bummer to spend months studying and not end up in law school, but lowering your standards ad hoc will only hurt you in the long run.

Edit: Missed your last post about taking in December. Advice about deciding in advance still applies.

User avatar
FlanAl
Posts: 1474
Joined: Fri Mar 12, 2010 4:53 pm

Re: As if we needed another reason not to attend law school...

Postby FlanAl » Tue Dec 13, 2011 10:58 pm

c3pO4 wrote:
Mr. Pancakes wrote:
I get that, but even if you were to only have a 10k or so raise a year from law school, which it could be less but most likely more, you would still be coming out even, and I would be doing something I would enjoy, rather than playing a non-funny role from the movie Office Space. I've played out most of my angles and law school is my route. If you're unsure about law school then come work in the cubicle next to mine. Shit, you might even like it, we get free soda and coffee! I am far too competitive of a person to be doing some crap like this. Welp, I better get to bed so I can spend the day listening to Melissa from quality control tell me about her son's T-Ball game.


you are completely ignoring debt. you'll be paying 2,000 a month for loans for 10 years after law school. where is that money going to come from? you have a good entry level job and you are young--- don't go to law school. move up in business your ceiling is much higher than 60k. you will regret it.


because if you end up only making 30k a year in doc review you are obviously going to go on a 10 year repayment plan?

SchopenhauerFTW
Posts: 1793
Joined: Sun Oct 10, 2010 10:22 pm

Re: As if we needed another reason not to attend law school...

Postby SchopenhauerFTW » Tue Dec 13, 2011 11:01 pm

I never planned on owning a home anyway. Perfectly fine living in a ratty studio apartment for 15 more years and having people openly smoke crack on my doorstep.

User avatar
Mr. Pancakes
Posts: 1234
Joined: Thu Nov 24, 2011 1:11 pm

Re: As if we needed another reason not to attend law school...

Postby Mr. Pancakes » Tue Dec 13, 2011 11:16 pm

My main point would be if you are unsure then go out and explore the real world. I wasn't saying the article's main arguement was invalid. Good talk brahs.

User avatar
vissidarte27
Posts: 434
Joined: Thu Dec 02, 2010 3:43 pm

Re: As if we needed another reason not to attend law school...

Postby vissidarte27 » Tue Dec 13, 2011 11:19 pm

So, basically, we should all go out and buy houses now before we incur tons of law school debt.

User avatar
cinephile
Posts: 3469
Joined: Sun Jul 18, 2010 3:50 pm

Re: As if we needed another reason not to attend law school...

Postby cinephile » Tue Dec 13, 2011 11:36 pm

Just the other day my legal writing instructor was telling us about the first house she bought a couple months after she became a first year associate. She paid nothing down. Sounds awesome.
Last edited by cinephile on Tue Dec 13, 2011 11:37 pm, edited 1 time in total.

lexdiamonds
Posts: 12
Joined: Tue Nov 22, 2011 7:12 am

Re: As if we needed another reason not to attend law school...

Postby lexdiamonds » Tue Dec 13, 2011 11:37 pm

Mr. Pancakes wrote:
TylerM wrote:
Mr. Pancakes wrote:I've been out of undergrad for a bit and I'm sitting with a job making under 40k a year. I've looked all over the country for better jobs and I'm not able to find one. after examining things at my job and our 3% raise each year, I have realized that what I am doing just isn't going to cut the mustard. I would rather take a risk and have the chance to increase my earning potential for the next 35 years rather than scoot by in life maxing out at 60k a year. I may not make a whole lot more my first year out of law school but I will have the potential to make more than 40k a year, even though there is a chance that I won't. If getting a law degree only increases my income by 10k a year it will be worth it. Hell, life is about taking risks. If you think it's too risky then do something else, but my bachelors degree sure as hell isn't giving me a chance to save or have enough money to raise a family if I choose to in the future. I have always wanted to be a lawyer and I will become a lawyer. If you aren't sure if it's a good idea then go out and try to find a satisfying job with your undergraduate degree(even masters) that also pays the bills. Shit's weak right now... shit's weak.


Get an engineering degree too and you'll be set for 4 weeks.

--LinkRemoved-- :!:



It could be much worse for you than it is now... Even with a 10k/year raise consider your 100,000 bill and rapidly accumulating interest.


I get that, but even if you were to only have a 10k or so raise a year from law school, which it could be less but most likely more, you would still be coming out even, and I would be doing something I would enjoy, rather than playing a non-funny role from the movie Office Space. I've played out most of my angles and law school is my route. If you're unsure about law school then come work in the cubicle next to mine. Shit, you might even like it, we get free soda and coffee! I am far too competitive of a person to be doing some crap like this. Welp, I better get to bed so I can spend the day listening to Melissa from quality control tell me about her son's T-Ball game.


The thing is though, if being bored and unfulfilled with poor earning prospects is part of what is driving you towards law, there is a high likelihood (70%+ at the least) that you'll end up basically being bored and unfulfilled with poor earning prospects anyway in the legal field. 80% of law students end up taking loans which average at least 90k, and only about 20% of graduates end up with the salaries necessary to pay off those loans. So even if playing the odds was your thing, you're more likely to end up way behind than ahead.

Even if you do get a 10k gain in salary (which for the majority of law grads is not true since most make around 40k-45k), that 10k gets eaten up in interest on that student loan, never mind the principal itself. If you do the numbers, you staying in the job you've got now without the crushing law school debt and 3 years of lost income, you'll still be financially ahead of just about every law graduate for the first 20 years of your respective careers, and it will be decades before they can catch up to you in net worth. And all of this is still assuming you get a job, which about 1/3 of law graduates don't after 9 months.

User avatar
Mr. Pancakes
Posts: 1234
Joined: Thu Nov 24, 2011 1:11 pm

Re: As if we needed another reason not to attend law school...

Postby Mr. Pancakes » Wed Dec 14, 2011 12:07 am

lexdiamonds wrote:
Mr. Pancakes wrote:
TylerM wrote:
Mr. Pancakes wrote:I've been out of undergrad for a bit and I'm sitting with a job making under 40k a year. I've looked all over the country for better jobs and I'm not able to find one. after examining things at my job and our 3% raise each year, I have realized that what I am doing just isn't going to cut the mustard. I would rather take a risk and have the chance to increase my earning potential for the next 35 years rather than scoot by in life maxing out at 60k a year. I may not make a whole lot more my first year out of law school but I will have the potential to make more than 40k a year, even though there is a chance that I won't. If getting a law degree only increases my income by 10k a year it will be worth it. Hell, life is about taking risks. If you think it's too risky then do something else, but my bachelors degree sure as hell isn't giving me a chance to save or have enough money to raise a family if I choose to in the future. I have always wanted to be a lawyer and I will become a lawyer. If you aren't sure if it's a good idea then go out and try to find a satisfying job with your undergraduate degree(even masters) that also pays the bills. Shit's weak right now... shit's weak.


Get an engineering degree too and you'll be set for 4 weeks.

--LinkRemoved-- :!:



It could be much worse for you than it is now... Even with a 10k/year raise consider your 100,000 bill and rapidly accumulating interest.


I get that, but even if you were to only have a 10k or so raise a year from law school, which it could be less but most likely more, you would still be coming out even, and I would be doing something I would enjoy, rather than playing a non-funny role from the movie Office Space. I've played out most of my angles and law school is my route. If you're unsure about law school then come work in the cubicle next to mine. Shit, you might even like it, we get free soda and coffee! I am far too competitive of a person to be doing some crap like this. Welp, I better get to bed so I can spend the day listening to Melissa from quality control tell me about her son's T-Ball game.


The thing is though, if being bored and unfulfilled with poor earning prospects is part of what is driving you towards law, there is a high likelihood (70%+ at the least) that you'll end up basically being bored and unfulfilled with poor earning prospects anyway in the legal field. 80% of law students end up taking loans which average at least 90k, and only about 20% of graduates end up with the salaries necessary to pay off those loans. So even if playing the odds was your thing, you're more likely to end up way behind than ahead.

Even if you do get a 10k gain in salary (which for the majority of law grads is not true since most make around 40k-45k), that 10k gets eaten up in interest on that student loan, never mind the principal itself. If you do the numbers, you staying in the job you've got now without the crushing law school debt and 3 years of lost income, you'll still be financially ahead of just about every law graduate for the first 20 years of your respective careers, and it will be decades before they can catch up to you in net worth. And all of this is still assuming you get a job, which about 1/3 of law graduates don't after 9 months.


Yes, I get those arguements as well. I think a word that you were missing in my initial statements was "potential". I have several lawyers in my family and they have advised me on all the angles. I would also advise others to take a look at all the angles before taking the leap. I have friends that are recent grads from t1's to tttt's. The grad from a t1 is making 60k in their first year out, the grad from a tttt is making close to 100k in their 3rd year, and the grad from the TT is making around 40k. Yes, it can be a crapshoot.
I don't really think we are really disagreeing with each other. My aunt, uncle, father, grandfather, and cousin are all attorneys and they love it. Maybe they are just bullshitting me so I'll join the family business.....

User avatar
Gail
Posts: 977
Joined: Thu Nov 10, 2011 11:11 am

Re: As if we needed another reason not to attend law school...

Postby Gail » Wed Dec 14, 2011 12:36 am

c3pO4 wrote:
you are completely ignoring debt. you'll be paying 2,000 a month for loans for 10 years after law school. where is that money going to come from? you have a good entry level job and you are young--- don't go to law school. move up in business your ceiling is much higher than 60k. you will regret it.


lmao. actually it isn't.

http://education.yahoo.net/articles/deg ... ential.htm

If lucky. You'll make $70k midcareer. If really, really, really lucky. You'll pull in $90k when you're 50.


You're all right. Law school has a lot of debt. Soul crushing. No doubt. You want to know what else is soul crushing? Life.


Let me guess, your next piece of advice is going to be to start your own business. A truly fail safe plan. :roll:




Return to “Law School Admissions Forum”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Baidu [Spider] and 5 guests