Ivy v. Public v. CC

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bport hopeful
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Ivy v. Public v. CC

Postby bport hopeful » Mon Dec 12, 2011 7:54 pm

I was wondering if the idea that it doesnt matter what kind of UG institution you went to was anecdotal or if there were some statistic behind this?

This is to settle a bet.

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bport hopeful
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Re: Ivy v. Public v. CC

Postby bport hopeful » Mon Dec 12, 2011 8:41 pm

Cmon.

justinp
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Re: Ivy v. Public v. CC

Postby justinp » Mon Dec 12, 2011 8:54 pm

Disclaimer: clueless 0L here.

That said, based on conversations with various law students and lawyers from a variety of backgrounds (big state schools of various reputations, Ivies, top liberal arts, etc.) there are a TON of folks from elite colleges/universities in the top schools. However, that doesn't necessarily mean that there's an advantage in admissions; it could be that those people are overrepresented due to the fact that they are extremely smart, disciplined, and good at standardized tests-- which allows them to attend an elite college/university in the first place.

So they're at T14 schools because they're smart disciplined people who do well on standardized tests, not because they went to a top UG institution. And conversely, there are plenty of people from less-prestigious institutions who are also smart and disciplined, but for whatever reason didn't go to a highly selective UG institution.

That said, I've got no idea what I'm talking about.

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bk1
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Re: Ivy v. Public v. CC

Postby bk1 » Mon Dec 12, 2011 8:56 pm

I'd ascribe it to the fact that the only true outliers on LSN are URM's.

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PennQuaker
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Re: Ivy v. Public v. CC

Postby PennQuaker » Mon Dec 12, 2011 10:33 pm

The answer is no. The LSAT is the great equalizer

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AreJay711
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Re: Ivy v. Public v. CC

Postby AreJay711 » Mon Dec 12, 2011 10:38 pm

How is someone supposed to answer this unless they simultaneously went to both a great and crappy undergrad and then applied under two personas to the same schools... or did a regression study of LSN in their spare time.

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bostonlawchick
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Re: Ivy v. Public v. CC

Postby bostonlawchick » Mon Dec 12, 2011 10:43 pm

FWIW, I went to a community college for three years, it didn't really seem to hurt me.

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Pato_09
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Re: Ivy v. Public v. CC

Postby Pato_09 » Mon Dec 12, 2011 10:54 pm

Ivy undergrad will help you in law school admissions, but most importantly will help you significantly during big firm job search.

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Na_Swatch
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Re: Ivy v. Public v. CC

Postby Na_Swatch » Mon Dec 12, 2011 10:57 pm

Generally:

1) It doesn't matter that much.

2) It still matters more than the TLS exaggeration of: HYS or its all the same. Basically, you'll get a boost or neg. on a sliding scale depending on how difficult the school was, its basic academic perception, etc.

Still GPA and LSAT are going to account for most of it.

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johansantana21
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Re: Ivy v. Public v. CC

Postby johansantana21 » Mon Dec 12, 2011 10:59 pm

Pato_09 wrote:Ivy undergrad will help you in law school admissions, but most importantly will help you significantly during big firm job search.


Orly

bdubs
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Re: Ivy v. Public v. CC

Postby bdubs » Mon Dec 12, 2011 11:01 pm

I think it matters more for reverse splitters than traditional splitters. If you're a decent amount above the 50% mark for GPA and you went to an ivy or equivalent, I think you are much more likely to gain admission than the community college or avg. state school kid.

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monkey85
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Re: Ivy v. Public v. CC

Postby monkey85 » Mon Dec 12, 2011 11:04 pm

Pato_09 wrote:Ivy undergrad will help you in law school admissions, but most importantly will help you significantly during big firm job search.


This is generally true.

Of course there are a few more pieces to the puzzle. But outside of T14, work experience + ivy undergrad + Top 1/3 will get you further than most people think in the SA hunt.

As for law school admissions, GPA is all that matters. School irrelevant.

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AreJay711
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Re: Ivy v. Public v. CC

Postby AreJay711 » Mon Dec 12, 2011 11:05 pm

bdubs wrote:I think it matters more for reverse splitters than traditional splitters. If you're a decent amount above the 50% mark for GPA and you went to an ivy or equivalent, I think you are much more likely to gain admission than the community college or avg. state school kid.


Yeah but a 3.5 gets you top 10% at some state school but is around median at an Ivy so they are not likely looking at the same GPA.

acrossthelake
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Re: Ivy v. Public v. CC

Postby acrossthelake » Mon Dec 12, 2011 11:06 pm

Matters more for hiring than it does for admissions.

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Helmholtz
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Re: Ivy v. Public v. CC

Postby Helmholtz » Mon Dec 12, 2011 11:07 pm

johansantana21 wrote:
Pato_09 wrote:Ivy undergrad will help you in law school admissions, but most importantly will help you significantly during big firm job search.


Orly


"Significantly" is an overstatement. From what I've seen, it matters as much for OCI hiring as it does for law-school admissions. I can definitely think off the top of my head people from outstanding UGs (think HYP, Oxford, etc) who underperformed for their class rank while people from crappy or semi-crappy state schools vastly overperformed their class rank. I really could not see much of a correlation at all.

edit: this is in reference to OCI hiring, I can definitely see it making more of a difference for 1L summer hiring, when employers have less to go off of

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johansantana21
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Re: Ivy v. Public v. CC

Postby johansantana21 » Mon Dec 12, 2011 11:08 pm

Helmholtz wrote:
johansantana21 wrote:
Pato_09 wrote:Ivy undergrad will help you in law school admissions, but most importantly will help you significantly during big firm job search.


Orly


"Significantly" is an overstatement. From what I've seen, it matters as much for OCI hiring as it does for law-school admissions. I can definitely think off the top of my head people from outstanding UGs (think HYP, Oxford, etc) who underperformed for their class rank while people from crappy or semi-crappy state schools vastly overperformed their class rank. I really could not see much of a correlation at all.

edit: this is in reference to OCI hiring, I can definitely see it making more of a difference for 1L summer hiring, when employers have less to go off of


Maybe it matters more for lower T1 schools?

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RVP11
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Re: Ivy v. Public v. CC

Postby RVP11 » Mon Dec 12, 2011 11:11 pm

Pato_09 wrote:Ivy undergrad will help you in law school admissions, but most importantly will help you significantly during big firm job search.


In my experience, no. And when there is a boost, it's restricted to HYP.

Just as in law school admissions, having a recognizable Ivy degree will HELP, but it's way less important than the hard numbers. I don't know anyone who would trade .05 LS GPA for Ivy undergrad, even HYP undergrad. On the other hand, there are tons of people who would trade .05 LS GPA for more work experience or better interviewing personality.

FWIW, I went TTT UG -> T14 -> V5 and V10 offers with borderline law school grades. No one ever mentioned my fantttastttic undergraduate pedigree. And with every few exceptions, no one I knew did much better or worse at OCI based on their undergraduate school.

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johansantana21
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Re: Ivy v. Public v. CC

Postby johansantana21 » Mon Dec 12, 2011 11:14 pm

RVP11 wrote:
Pato_09 wrote:Ivy undergrad will help you in law school admissions, but most importantly will help you significantly during big firm job search.


In my experience, no. And when there is a boost, it's restricted to HYP.

Just as in law school admissions, having a recognizable Ivy degree will HELP, but it's way less important than the hard numbers. I don't know anyone who would trade .05 LS GPA for Ivy undergrad, even HYP undergrad. On the other hand, there are tons of people who would trade .05 LS GPA for more work experience or better interviewing personality.

FWIW, I went TTT UG -> T14 -> V5 and V10 offers with borderline law school grades. No one ever mentioned my fantttastttic undergraduate pedigree. And with every few exceptions, no one I knew did much better or worse at OCI based on their undergraduate school.


What do you mean borderline law school grades?

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Helmholtz
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Re: Ivy v. Public v. CC

Postby Helmholtz » Mon Dec 12, 2011 11:16 pm

johansantana21 wrote:
Helmholtz wrote:
johansantana21 wrote:
Pato_09 wrote:Ivy undergrad will help you in law school admissions, but most importantly will help you significantly during big firm job search.


Orly


"Significantly" is an overstatement. From what I've seen, it matters as much for OCI hiring as it does for law-school admissions. I can definitely think off the top of my head people from outstanding UGs (think HYP, Oxford, etc) who underperformed for their class rank while people from crappy or semi-crappy state schools vastly overperformed their class rank. I really could not see much of a correlation at all.

edit: this is in reference to OCI hiring, I can definitely see it making more of a difference for 1L summer hiring, when employers have less to go off of


Maybe it matters more for lower T1 schools?


It might, but I don't see why it would. Yeah, people who went to HYP for UG might stick out more at lower T1 schools since there are less of them, but you could also say that people who went to shitty state schools would stick out like a sore thumb at a T10 school, and I just didn't see that being the case. Even firms that made it seem like they cared about what you did during UG (e.g. Cravath, who asks for a UG transcript at OCI) didn't seem to place any kind of emphasis on where you did undergrad.

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RVP11
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Re: Ivy v. Public v. CC

Postby RVP11 » Mon Dec 12, 2011 11:18 pm

johansantana21 wrote:
RVP11 wrote:
Pato_09 wrote:Ivy undergrad will help you in law school admissions, but most importantly will help you significantly during big firm job search.


In my experience, no. And when there is a boost, it's restricted to HYP.

Just as in law school admissions, having a recognizable Ivy degree will HELP, but it's way less important than the hard numbers. I don't know anyone who would trade .05 LS GPA for Ivy undergrad, even HYP undergrad. On the other hand, there are tons of people who would trade .05 LS GPA for more work experience or better interviewing personality.

FWIW, I went TTT UG -> T14 -> V5 and V10 offers with borderline law school grades. No one ever mentioned my fantttastttic undergraduate pedigree. And with every few exceptions, no one I knew did much better or worse at OCI based on their undergraduate school.


What do you mean borderline law school grades?


Borderline, from my school, for V5 and V10 firms.

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PennQuaker
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Re: Ivy v. Public v. CC

Postby PennQuaker » Mon Dec 12, 2011 11:19 pm

Pato_09 wrote:Ivy undergrad will help you in law school admissions, but most importantly will help you significantly during big firm job search.

You simply don't know of what you speak(type.) As someonewho actually attends an Ivy League school, the alumni reach is of course great, but law firms hire PRIMARILY based on the Law School you attended (many of the top firms ONLY will hire Ivy League law school grads)

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RVP11
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Re: Ivy v. Public v. CC

Postby RVP11 » Mon Dec 12, 2011 11:20 pm

PennQuaker wrote:(many of the top firms ONLY will hire Ivy League law school grads)


Quick, name a top firm that only hires Ivy League law school grads.

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redsoxfan2495
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Re: Ivy v. Public v. CC

Postby redsoxfan2495 » Mon Dec 12, 2011 11:35 pm

PennQuaker wrote:
Pato_09 wrote:Ivy undergrad will help you in law school admissions, but most importantly will help you significantly during big firm job search.

You simply don't know of what you speak(type.) As someonewho actually attends an Ivy League school, the alumni reach is of course great, but law firms hire PRIMARILY based on the Law School you attended (many of the top firms ONLY will hire Ivy League law school grads)
Attending a top school gives you much better odds at landing a job at a top firm, but I don't think any firm really cares whether the school you went to is actually a member of the Ivy League. Do you really think there are firms out there that have a strong preference for Cornell/Penn/Columbia grads over Stanford grads?

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Pato_09
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Re: Ivy v. Public v. CC

Postby Pato_09 » Mon Dec 12, 2011 11:59 pm

many of the top firms ONLY will hire Ivy League law school grads.

Lol. This is ridiculously wrong.

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ladybug89
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Re: Ivy v. Public v. CC

Postby ladybug89 » Tue Dec 13, 2011 12:43 am

bdubs wrote:I think it matters more for reverse splitters than traditional splitters. If you're a decent amount above the 50% mark for GPA and you went to an ivy or equivalent, I think you are much more likely to gain admission than the community college or avg. state school kid.


I think this is on the mark. Good LSAT + HYPS undergrad (and extra for URMs) can go a long way to boost a lower GPA. That's what I've observed from personal experience at my ug.




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