Why ND's Mediocre Ranking?

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2xHarvard
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Re: Why ND's Mediocre Ranking?

Postby 2xHarvard » Mon Dec 12, 2011 10:11 am

When you wrote "ND", I thought you meant North Dakota. Very reasonably priced. Two attorneys for whom I worked as a paralegal went to North Dakota and highly recommended it, so there's another ND to consider.

flcath
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Re: Why ND's Mediocre Ranking?

Postby flcath » Tue Dec 13, 2011 2:46 am

Desert Fox wrote:
johansantana21 wrote:
Desert Fox wrote:And everyone trolling ND's job prospects . . . wait for this years NLJ data. They are going to take a spill because chicago, it's largest market, is so fucking TTT. I bet their NLJ% will be sub 10% this year.


Oh, your trolling tickles me so hard.

Below 10%???


Go look at the ND threads from 2009. It was a fucking disaster at Chicago market feeder schools. Most firms weren't even going to schools like ND, UIUC, WIsconsin, and WUSTL. A lot of the big Chicago firms only recruited at HArvard, Chicago, Michigan and Northwestern.

The number of SA's in chicago was cut into a third of the number in 2008. It's safe to assume ND's placement got cut into a third as well.

There were reports that significant portion of ND's law review got shut out.

I and 3 other people (there may be more; it's hard to tell) on the LR at ND got nothing from OCIs, though a non-trivial number of people off LR got gigs at great places (W&C, Jones Day, Winston & Strawn).

The common theme (among the failures) seemed to be a lack of desire to go back home. In a bad market where these regional biglaw firms are calling back 25 people for 4 SA spots, it really, really sucks to be sitting in a CB at Foley's Milwaukee office, with zero midwestern shit on your CV.

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Re: Why ND's Mediocre Ranking?

Postby flcath » Tue Dec 13, 2011 3:31 am

Also, to weigh in on the thread in general:

(1) We are located in a city that pretty much guarantees that no eminent professor who's not a devout Catholic will ever come to work here.

(2) We're a very, very rich university (probably the one real factor that would suggest we'll improve in the rankings), but the small size of the student body (<175 per class) makes faculty additions extremely costly.

(3) We have a meticulously-developed brand, but frankly that's a marketing thing that won't impress academics or well-educated working people. I personally think there's a very cool institutional identity behind that brand, but that doesn't do anything to help job prospects OR outsiders' rankings.

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BeerMaker
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Re: Why ND's Mediocre Ranking?

Postby BeerMaker » Tue Dec 13, 2011 9:29 am

flcath wrote:Also, to weigh in on the thread in general:

(1) We are located in a city that pretty much guarantees that no eminent professor who's not a devout Catholic will ever come to work here.

(2) We're a very, very rich university (probably the one real factor that would suggest we'll improve in the rankings), but the small size of the student body (<175 per class) makes faculty additions extremely costly.

(3) We have a meticulously-developed brand, but frankly that's a marketing thing that won't impress academics or well-educated working people. I personally think there's a very cool institutional identity behind that brand, but that doesn't do anything to help job prospects OR outsiders' rankings.


Interesting stuff here. Do you find that most ND students who have had success have had to do most of their job hunting themselves? Do the successful ones have a connection to a firm? I have also heard that many firms only hire SA's with a strong personal connection to that area (i.e., going home).

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Re: Why ND's Mediocre Ranking?

Postby flcath » Tue Dec 13, 2011 3:47 pm

BeerMaker wrote:
flcath wrote:Also, to weigh in on the thread in general:

(1) We are located in a city that pretty much guarantees that no eminent professor who's not a devout Catholic will ever come to work here.

(2) We're a very, very rich university (probably the one real factor that would suggest we'll improve in the rankings), but the small size of the student body (<175 per class) makes faculty additions extremely costly.

(3) We have a meticulously-developed brand, but frankly that's a marketing thing that won't impress academics or well-educated working people. I personally think there's a very cool institutional identity behind that brand, but that doesn't do anything to help job prospects OR outsiders' rankings.


Interesting stuff here. Do you find that most ND students who have had success have had to do most of their job hunting themselves? Do the successful ones have a connection to a firm? I have also heard that many firms only hire SA's with a strong personal connection to that area (i.e., going home).

(1) ND's OCI is bad, IMO. The end result of our placement is very national--do a search of the California bar, for example, and you'll find that roughly the same number (adjusted for class size) of ND grads are practicing there as Penn and Michigan grads--but the OCI is really not even a very good regional OCI, let alone national. It offers good (but still worse than, say, UIUC) depth for Chicago, Ohio, and Michigan. There is a mention-worthy (but very small compared to the overall size of the market) presence from NYC and DC (these firms show up at every T30ish school), the rest of the Midwest, and, surprisingly, California.

I really think that firms--both Chicago firms and remote ones--are disinclined to come here because we're a very small school that ultimately sends its kids out all over, thus making it a low-yield trip for any one firm. I mean, an Atlanta firm that only wanted to hire kids in the top 35% at ND would probably be fishing from a pool of maybe 4 kids (of course, their schedule would be full with kids who didn't really want Atlanta, but bid on it anyway); why not just let those 4 kids write-in applications?

(2) Ties are important to any firm whose business model relies upon new associates to stay for more than 3-5 years (secondary market biglaw and all midlaw), and I've come to believe that firms aren't willing to overlook them in exchange for better grades. I mean, I'm sure there's a limit to that somewhere--Foley Milwaukee would probably be willing to take a chance on a Harvard Law Review kid who's never been to Wisconsin--but it's not like you can rely on saying to yourself "if I just perform a couple notches better than [a given firm's] usual entry-level hires, I'll be a lock despite my lack of ties."

(3) Primary market biglaw firms with high attrition (pyramid structure, Cravath model, whatever) don't care as much since they're built to lose people at that stage, anyway. These firms are the most wedded to elite schools, though, for whatever reason (probably laziness and self-perpetuation by partners, if I had to guess).

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Re: Why ND's Mediocre Ranking?

Postby flcath » Tue Dec 13, 2011 3:48 pm

Sorry for the long response. I'm study-breaking, and I assume (from your Q's, and the thread) that you're interested in NDLS.

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Aberzombie1892
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Re: Why ND's Mediocre Ranking?

Postby Aberzombie1892 » Tue Dec 13, 2011 8:13 pm

flcath wrote:Sorry for the long response. I'm study-breaking, and I assume (from your Q's, and the thread) that you're interested in NDLS.


Your posts in this thread are some of the most thoughtful ones that I've seen on tls.com. I agree with the reasoning behind all of it, as it reminds me of my experiences at Tulane.

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bernaldiaz
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Re: Why ND's Mediocre Ranking?

Postby bernaldiaz » Tue Dec 13, 2011 8:34 pm

Aberzombie1892 wrote:
flcath wrote:Sorry for the long response. I'm study-breaking, and I assume (from your Q's, and the thread) that you're interested in NDLS.


Your posts in this thread are some of the most thoughtful ones that I've seen on tls.com. I agree with the reasoning behind all of it, as it reminds me of my experiences at Tulane.


Don't compare Tulane and ND

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Aberzombie1892
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Re: Why ND's Mediocre Ranking?

Postby Aberzombie1892 » Tue Dec 13, 2011 10:10 pm

bernaldiaz wrote:
Aberzombie1892 wrote:
flcath wrote:Sorry for the long response. I'm study-breaking, and I assume (from your Q's, and the thread) that you're interested in NDLS.


Your posts in this thread are some of the most thoughtful ones that I've seen on tls.com. I agree with the reasoning behind all of it, as it reminds me of my experiences at Tulane.


Don't compare Tulane and ND


?

I don't get it. Notre dame is better at big law by ~15%, no doubt - but you've been drinking like an Irishman if you believe that there is a large enough difference between them that they are not comparable haha. You would think we were talking Columbia vs. Brooklyn or something 8)

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bernaldiaz
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Re: Why ND's Mediocre Ranking?

Postby bernaldiaz » Tue Dec 13, 2011 10:14 pm

Aberzombie1892 wrote:
bernaldiaz wrote:
Aberzombie1892 wrote:
flcath wrote:Sorry for the long response. I'm study-breaking, and I assume (from your Q's, and the thread) that you're interested in NDLS.


Your posts in this thread are some of the most thoughtful ones that I've seen on tls.com. I agree with the reasoning behind all of it, as it reminds me of my experiences at Tulane.


Don't compare Tulane and ND


?

I don't get it. Notre dame is better at big law by 15%-20%, no doubt - but you've been drinking like an Irishman if you believe that there is a large enough difference between them that they are not comparable haha. You would think we were talking Columbia vs. Brooklyn or something 8)


Sorry. Oversensitive ND undergrad here. I just need to get over the fact that our grad programs don't measure up

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johansantana21
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Re: Why ND's Mediocre Ranking?

Postby johansantana21 » Tue Dec 13, 2011 10:18 pm

It's ok bro, no one cares about ND undergrad either.

For law schools and law related employment, anything below HYP, and even those, probably don't matter.

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schwar46
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Re: Why ND's Mediocre Ranking?

Postby schwar46 » Tue Dec 13, 2011 10:40 pm

johansantana21 wrote:It's ok bro, no one cares about ND undergrad either.

For law schools and law related employment, anything below HYP, and even those, probably don't matter.


You kiddin' me brah? WUSTL matters so much...

:|

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Aberzombie1892
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Re: Why ND's Mediocre Ranking?

Postby Aberzombie1892 » Tue Dec 13, 2011 11:07 pm

bernaldiaz wrote:Sorry. Oversensitive ND undergrad here. I just need to get over the fact that our grad programs don't measure up


Hey I used to feel that way about comparisons between Tulane law and other law schools. Relax, it's meaningful conversation about things that aren't talked about (even anonymously).

To be honest with you, outside of the T14 followed by BC/BU/UCLA/USC/Vandy, it's almost all personal preference with an emphasis on location - if not by state, then at least by region. While many of the above group are very regional, their employment prospects are above all of the other law schools to the point where it could make sense to give up a school not in that group in a better location for the increased job opportunities that those schools offer.

As the guy I was quoting said earlier, most people that choose to attend schools outside of the above range must be willing to apply to firms were they have connections to as those locations would likely offer the best job prospects. I can agree with him on that as that is also the case with Tulane graduates. Both schools disperse the vast majority of their graduates, and most of these dispersed individuals are likely getting (good, although usually not NLJ) jobs where they had preexisting connections to. There is nothing wrong with that, as that is how modern legal hiring works.

As he also said, and that everyone on this forum knows, big firms are wedded to the T14. It happens. Most of the T14 rely on a some big heavy hitter firms to come recruit 20+ people each year. These big firms are necessary because their hiring patterns (significantly) contribute to creating a limited supply of graduates from that T14 school. That limited supply, combined with legal hiring theories (re: Cravath model) and nepotism, made other large firms okay with hiring pretty much any student from T14s (prior to the recession).

Schools like Notre Dame, Tulane, and WashU don't have big heavy hitters that recruit students like that (20 at a time, although I'm sure they have some that recruit ~10 at a time). Given the nature of legal hiring, these schools may never have big firms recruit that many students unless St. Louis, New Orleans, and Indianapolis balloon to the size of Boston in population, or if any of these schools break into the T14. It's regrettable, but it's the legal market post US News and post recession.

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Re: Why ND's Mediocre Ranking?

Postby flcath » Wed Dec 14, 2011 3:12 am

Aberzombie1892 wrote:
flcath wrote:Sorry for the long response. I'm study-breaking, and I assume (from your Q's, and the thread) that you're interested in NDLS.


Your posts in this thread are some of the most thoughtful ones that I've seen on tls.com. I agree with the reasoning behind all of it, as it reminds me of my experiences at Tulane.

Ty, indeed.

My best friend just transferred down to Tulane. He really likes it, subject to the usual caveat that as you move up in USNews rank, you move down in student-body social skills. I will say he's vacillated like a dozen times on whether he *loves* Nola or absolutely hates it.

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BeerMaker
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Re: Why ND's Mediocre Ranking?

Postby BeerMaker » Wed Dec 14, 2011 9:14 am

I thought ND Alums were some of the most die hard anywhere. Surely there are a lot of Alums out there at Big Law that want ND grads, right?

ryegye87
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Re: Why ND's Mediocre Ranking?

Postby ryegye87 » Wed Dec 14, 2011 12:38 pm

Sorry. Oversensitive ND undergrad here.



Is there any other kind?

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thexfactor
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Re: Why ND's Mediocre Ranking?

Postby thexfactor » Wed Dec 14, 2011 12:44 pm

flcath wrote:
BeerMaker wrote:
flcath wrote:Also, to weigh in on the thread in general:

(1) We are located in a city that pretty much guarantees that no eminent professor who's not a devout Catholic will ever come to work here.

(2) We're a very, very rich university (probably the one real factor that would suggest we'll improve in the rankings), but the small size of the student body (<175 per class) makes faculty additions extremely costly.

(3) We have a meticulously-developed brand, but frankly that's a marketing thing that won't impress academics or well-educated working people. I personally think there's a very cool institutional identity behind that brand, but that doesn't do anything to help job prospects OR outsiders' rankings.


Interesting stuff here. Do you find that most ND students who have had success have had to do most of their job hunting themselves? Do the successful ones have a connection to a firm? I have also heard that many firms only hire SA's with a strong personal connection to that area (i.e., going home).

(1) ND's OCI is bad, IMO. The end result of our placement is very national--do a search of the California bar, for example, and you'll find that roughly the same number (adjusted for class size) of ND grads are practicing there as Penn and Michigan grads--but the OCI is really not even a very good regional OCI, let alone national. It offers good (but still worse than, say, UIUC) depth for Chicago, Ohio, and Michigan. There is a mention-worthy (but very small compared to the overall size of the market) presence from NYC and DC (these firms show up at every T30ish school), the rest of the Midwest, and, surprisingly, California.

I really think that firms--both Chicago firms and remote ones--are disinclined to come here because we're a very small school that ultimately sends its kids out all over, thus making it a low-yield trip for any one firm. I mean, an Atlanta firm that only wanted to hire kids in the top 35% at ND would probably be fishing from a pool of maybe 4 kids (of course, their schedule would be full with kids who didn't really want Atlanta, but bid on it anyway); why not just let those 4 kids write-in applications?

(2) Ties are important to any firm whose business model relies upon new associates to stay for more than 3-5 years (secondary market biglaw and all midlaw), and I've come to believe that firms aren't willing to overlook them in exchange for better grades. I mean, I'm sure there's a limit to that somewhere--Foley Milwaukee would probably be willing to take a chance on a Harvard Law Review kid who's never been to Wisconsin--but it's not like you can rely on saying to yourself "if I just perform a couple notches better than [a given firm's] usual entry-level hires, I'll be a lock despite my lack of ties."

(3) Primary market biglaw firms with high attrition (pyramid structure, Cravath model, whatever) don't care as much since they're built to lose people at that stage, anyway. These firms are the most wedded to elite schools, though, for whatever reason (probably laziness and self-perpetuation by partners, if I had to guess).


I think ND is prob the best pick out of non t14 midwestern schools. Firms all over the midwest have ND grads. From Ohio to Michigan to Minnesota. That can't be said about WUSTL or UIUC. However, I think it becomes a problem when people from NYC or Cali go to ND and start applying to jobs in the midwest.

ryegye87
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Re: Why ND's Mediocre Ranking?

Postby ryegye87 » Wed Dec 14, 2011 12:54 pm

Yeah, I agree. Am an undergrad at ND. Our grad programs really suck. Business school is about on par with the law school (low 20's). I think what this person was referring to is that our UNDERGRAD business school is #1 in the country, for whatever that is worth.


Just to dispel this myth, ND's undergrad business is not #1. According to USNWR anyways.

Regardless, I think back on track with the OP, nobody has really brought up any reasons why ND law is ranked where it is other than job placement. It seems to me that ND law has equivalent job placement to the schools ranked around it, yet outranks those schools in the other facets of the ranking system. How is IUB and Minnesota ranked above ND when they're 75th percentile LSAT is closer to ND's 25th than 75th? And IUB's big law placement to my knowledge is not even in the top 50 and Minnesota places around 10% of their class in big law. Meanwhile, ND places around a quarter of their class in the NLJ 250, and a large amount in Article III clerkships as well.

Do I think ND should be in the T-14? No. But do I think they should hover a lot closer than they do? Absolutely.

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Re: Why ND's Mediocre Ranking?

Postby pohboydomer » Wed Dec 14, 2011 1:03 pm

I'll give a few of my thoughts. ND probably should be right around 20, in my view: behind the T14, Texas, Vandy, UCLA, USC, and GWU.

Its "peer assessment score" is below where it should be. That's, I think, threefold.

1. Up until around 15-20 years ago, the school didn't have the kind of "scholarly output" that a lot of the "best" schools consider vital, or a real effort to do so. It had some "productive" scholars, but that wasn't the standard in hiring. In the last 15-20 years, however, there's been a real shift to hiring faculty that are really extraordinary scholars, publishing pieces in ways that "peer" schools start to value. That said, it's a lagging reputation, and it will take still longer to overcome that inertia and earn the respect of peers, as more and more junior faculty get older and recognize the institution. People like Brian Leiter, for instance, would consider them marginal for that reason.

2. It's a relatively conservative, religious institution. It's not monolithic, and I'd say it's probably substantially balanced among liberals, conservatives, moderates, etc. But, having a fair balance of conservatives on a faculty means that, relatively, you're a far-right institution among law schools. That brings its peer assessment score down. I don't think that's really a conspiracy theory. If you look at the scores of other relatively conservative schools among the top 50 or so, religious or not, like George Mason, BYU, and Pepperdine, all of them have peer assessment scores substantially lower than the lawyer/judges assessment score. (Maybe, you counter, that the lawyer/judges assessment score is inflated for them! Whatever.) I think that inherently works against them.

3. The faculty are accessible to student and make teaching a priority. To be an "elite" law school, you basically shut out teaching or don't get the reputation for having accessibility to students. Cruel, I guess, but ND cares about teaching more than, I think, a lot of the higher-ranked schools, so that puts an emphasis on traits that a lot of peer institutions don't particularly care for.

To all the haters and trolls and everyone. Notre Dame has a truly national reputation in terms of alumni placement. Its primary market is Chicago, but it's not bound by Chicago like, say, Illinois is. Its career services has had longstanding problems going on for years (a decade?) now. Alumni network is fantastic, if you're willing to do the work and actually avail yourself of it. Your job prospects are not going to be as good as those at, say, Northwestern. That's just a fact. But your chances at getting a federal clerkship are probably better, for the ~10-15% or so of the class that's relevant to. Your indebtedness at graduation is going to be good because your cost of living is so cheap. Law school expenditures per student don't have to be inflated in part because of that cost of living.

Basically, there's good, there's not so good, be alert, take responsibility, survive, etc., and ND isn't so "mediocre" if it's ranked, what, 23-ish and I think it should probably be 20.

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Re: Why ND's Mediocre Ranking?

Postby downstream » Thu Dec 22, 2011 2:24 pm

pohboydomer wrote:I'll give a few of my thoughts. ND probably should be right around 20, in my view: behind the T14, Texas, Vandy, UCLA, USC, and GWU.

Its "peer assessment score" is below where it should be. That's, I think, threefold.

1. Up until around 15-20 years ago, the school didn't have the kind of "scholarly output" that a lot of the "best" schools consider vital, or a real effort to do so. It had some "productive" scholars, but that wasn't the standard in hiring. In the last 15-20 years, however, there's been a real shift to hiring faculty that are really extraordinary scholars, publishing pieces in ways that "peer" schools start to value. That said, it's a lagging reputation, and it will take still longer to overcome that inertia and earn the respect of peers, as more and more junior faculty get older and recognize the institution. People like Brian Leiter, for instance, would consider them marginal for that reason.

2. It's a relatively conservative, religious institution. It's not monolithic, and I'd say it's probably substantially balanced among liberals, conservatives, moderates, etc. But, having a fair balance of conservatives on a faculty means that, relatively, you're a far-right institution among law schools. That brings its peer assessment score down. I don't think that's really a conspiracy theory. If you look at the scores of other relatively conservative schools among the top 50 or so, religious or not, like George Mason, BYU, and Pepperdine, all of them have peer assessment scores substantially lower than the lawyer/judges assessment score. (Maybe, you counter, that the lawyer/judges assessment score is inflated for them! Whatever.) I think that inherently works against them.

3. The faculty are accessible to student and make teaching a priority. To be an "elite" law school, you basically shut out teaching or don't get the reputation for having accessibility to students. Cruel, I guess, but ND cares about teaching more than, I think, a lot of the higher-ranked schools, so that puts an emphasis on traits that a lot of peer institutions don't particularly care for.

To all the haters and trolls and everyone. Notre Dame has a truly national reputation in terms of alumni placement. Its primary market is Chicago, but it's not bound by Chicago like, say, Illinois is. Its career services has had longstanding problems going on for years (a decade?) now. Alumni network is fantastic, if you're willing to do the work and actually avail yourself of it. Your job prospects are not going to be as good as those at, say, Northwestern. That's just a fact. But your chances at getting a federal clerkship are probably better, for the ~10-15% or so of the class that's relevant to. Your indebtedness at graduation is going to be good because your cost of living is so cheap. Law school expenditures per student don't have to be inflated in part because of that cost of living.

Basically, there's good, there's not so good, be alert, take responsibility, survive, etc., and ND isn't so "mediocre" if it's ranked, what, 23-ish and I think it should probably be 20.


There is some epic misinformation in this post. Anyone who thinks Art III clerkship chances are better at ND than Northwestern is absolutely nuts.

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Re: Why ND's Mediocre Ranking?

Postby JetSetter68 » Thu Dec 22, 2011 2:54 pm

ryegye87 wrote:
Just to dispel this myth, ND's undergrad business is not #1. According to USNWR anyways.


Not a myth, just not USNews.

http://www.businessweek.com/bschools/co ... 642605.htm

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Re: Why ND's Mediocre Ranking?

Postby Nate895 » Thu Dec 22, 2011 5:06 pm

MrAnon wrote:
Oh really? You said yourself the grad school sucks. Again, pretend ND has no sports. People are going to want to attend there? For what purpose?


Because it's Roman Catholic. Believe it or not, some people care about a school's religious affiliation. That's the reason why I'm going to Liberty University rather than the University of Washington, WSU, PSU, and a number of other institutions without a religious affiliation that aligns with mine to a reasonable level. I wanted to go to an Evangelical Christian school, at least for my the latter half of my undergrad (I had intended on going to seminary afterwards at the time as well).

Believe it or not, there are things other than rankings, academic reputation, and scholarships that go into a decision on where to go to school. Also, as far as academic and lay reputation goes, there are different opinions amongst different subcultures. In the Evangelical Christian subculture, nothing beats Wheaton and Hillsdale academically (most know our law schools are garbage academically, but that's a different story). Liberty is basically the Evangelical version of Arizona State (i.e., we spend more of our time socializing and "partying" than studying).

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Re: Why ND's Mediocre Ranking?

Postby 09042014 » Thu Dec 22, 2011 5:30 pm

Nate895 wrote:
MrAnon wrote:
Oh really? You said yourself the grad school sucks. Again, pretend ND has no sports. People are going to want to attend there? For what purpose?


Because it's Roman Catholic. Believe it or not, some people care about a school's religious affiliation. That's the reason why I'm going to Liberty University rather than the University of Washington, WSU, PSU, and a number of other institutions without a religious affiliation that aligns with mine to a reasonable level. I wanted to go to an Evangelical Christian school, at least for my the latter half of my undergrad (I had intended on going to seminary afterwards at the time as well).

Believe it or not, there are things other than rankings, academic reputation, and scholarships that go into a decision on where to go to school. Also, as far as academic and lay reputation goes, there are different opinions amongst different subcultures. In the Evangelical Christian subculture, nothing beats Wheaton and Hillsdale academically (most know our law schools are garbage academically, but that's a different story). Liberty is basically the Evangelical version of Arizona State (i.e., we spend more of our time socializing and "partying" than studying).


Why would anyone want to be around evangelicals? They are the worst.

Nate895
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Re: Why ND's Mediocre Ranking?

Postby Nate895 » Thu Dec 22, 2011 5:37 pm

Desert Fox wrote:
Nate895 wrote:
MrAnon wrote:
Oh really? You said yourself the grad school sucks. Again, pretend ND has no sports. People are going to want to attend there? For what purpose?


Because it's Roman Catholic. Believe it or not, some people care about a school's religious affiliation. That's the reason why I'm going to Liberty University rather than the University of Washington, WSU, PSU, and a number of other institutions without a religious affiliation that aligns with mine to a reasonable level. I wanted to go to an Evangelical Christian school, at least for my the latter half of my undergrad (I had intended on going to seminary afterwards at the time as well).

Believe it or not, there are things other than rankings, academic reputation, and scholarships that go into a decision on where to go to school. Also, as far as academic and lay reputation goes, there are different opinions amongst different subcultures. In the Evangelical Christian subculture, nothing beats Wheaton and Hillsdale academically (most know our law schools are garbage academically, but that's a different story). Liberty is basically the Evangelical version of Arizona State (i.e., we spend more of our time socializing and "partying" than studying).


Why would anyone want to be around evangelicals? They are the worst.


Maybe because you are an Evangelical and you want to be around fellow believers and intend on marrying a fellow Evangelical?

Ring by spring! (It's an inside joke)

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Richie Tenenbaum
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Re: Why ND's Mediocre Ranking?

Postby Richie Tenenbaum » Thu Dec 22, 2011 5:38 pm

pohboydomer wrote:3. The faculty are accessible to student and make teaching a priority. To be an "elite" law school, you basically shut out teaching or don't get the reputation for having accessibility to students. Cruel, I guess, but ND cares about teaching more than, I think, a lot of the higher-ranked schools, so that puts an emphasis on traits that a lot of peer institutions don't particularly care for.


This may have some truth as a very general statement, but to state that a de-emphasis of teaching is a necessary condition of being an elite school is just dumb. UT has some incredible scholars and some incredible teachers and in many instances a professor is both. The vast majority of my professors have been very accessible, with many having open door policies (or a close equivalent). I can't speak about other schools as much, but I've been thoroughly impressed with how great most of my professors have been at actually teaching. And ability to teach is most definitely an important consideration when hiring.




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