Why ND's Mediocre Ranking?

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BeerMaker
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Re: Why ND's Mediocre Ranking?

Postby BeerMaker » Sun Dec 11, 2011 4:01 pm

Hjones33 wrote:
johansantana21 wrote:Why it's mediocre ranking?

Cuz it's a mediocre law school.


I know this is TLS, but since when is 23rd rank mediocre? Especially when you consider a lot of people thinking that if you add more weight to job prospects it would be a t20.


This is just a guess, but I'd say economy. If it were 1996, we wouldn't be having this conversation because we'd all be chillin' on the beach in Naples and taking evening classes at Ave Maria.

Man.... I was born in the wrong generation!

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Re: Why ND's Mediocre Ranking?

Postby 071816 » Sun Dec 11, 2011 4:15 pm

BeerMaker wrote:Trolling my ass. Legit question, terd!


--ImageRemoved--

bdubs
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Re: Why ND's Mediocre Ranking?

Postby bdubs » Sun Dec 11, 2011 4:35 pm

bernaldiaz wrote:
bdubs wrote:You are mistaken. Notre Dame is well regarded as an undergraduate institution and that is about it. Their business school is nowhere near the top 5.

Most lay person ideas of prestige are formed by 1) sports 2) undergraduate program ranking


Yeah, I agree. Am an undergrad at ND. Our grad programs really suck. Business school is about on par with the law school (low 20's). I think what this person was referring to is that our UNDERGRAD business school is #1 in the country, for whatever that is worth.


Undergrad business school rankings are about as worthless as rankings of pre-law programs. Employers hire undergrads based on their school's rank, their major, and their performance. There is little practical distinction between economics majors and quant. business majors (Penn even gives undergrads at Wharton a BS in econ)

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JamMasterJ
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Re: Why ND's Mediocre Ranking?

Postby JamMasterJ » Sun Dec 11, 2011 4:39 pm

Hjones33 wrote:
johansantana21 wrote:Why it's mediocre ranking?

Cuz it's a mediocre law school.


I know this is TLS, but since when is 23rd rank mediocre? Especially when you consider a lot of people thinking that if you add more weight to job prospects it would be a t20.

Most schools outside of 40 suck. So 23 is pretty solidly mediocre. Not bad, but definitely not great. I personally think ND should be more like 20-21, but it's definitely not a T14 or even a T17

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Re: Why ND's Mediocre Ranking?

Postby MrAnon » Sun Dec 11, 2011 4:40 pm

bernaldiaz wrote:
MrAnon wrote:Its not even a well-regarded undergrad.

Take away sports. Would anyone care about the school, at all?


That's just not true.


Oh really? You said yourself the grad school sucks. Again, pretend ND has no sports. People are going to want to attend there? For what purpose?

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Opie
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Re: Why ND's Mediocre Ranking?

Postby Opie » Sun Dec 11, 2011 8:20 pm

KeepitKind wrote:
Bildungsroman wrote:
kaiser wrote:
Bildungsroman wrote:USNews isn't designed to emulate lay perceptions of which law schools are best. That's why the rankings don't start with Harvard at 1 and Georgetown at 2.


I don't know a single person who thinks Georgetown is 2 in lay prestige. Maybe if I were from DC that would be different.

Ok, you could just see the larger point without quibbling over the exact "law prestige rankings" (a conversation this board has had enough), but I understand law school attracts the type of people prone to making unnecessary and subjective corrections at the expense of the broader discussion.


this sums up 85% of the discussion on TLS.


True. I'm starting to think that instead of the LSAT, there should be a one question essay: which is better, Star Wars or Star Trek? Please differentiate between real Star Trek and that other nonsense. Episode One isn't Star Wars and we double-dog dare you to prove otherwise. Minimum 450 pages.

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Re: Why ND's Mediocre Ranking?

Postby Veyron » Sun Dec 11, 2011 8:28 pm

johansantana21 wrote:
Hjones33 wrote:
johansantana21 wrote:Why it's mediocre ranking?

Cuz it's a mediocre law school.


I know this is TLS, but since when is 23rd rank mediocre? Especially when you consider a lot of people thinking that if you add more weight to job prospects it would be a t20.


Have you looked at job prospects?

There's a huge dropoff in job prospects from around 17ish to everyone below.

50% biglaw secure to 25%.


ND was NEVER 50% biglaw secure and is not 25% biglaw secure today. During the boom, GULC was about 50% biglaw secure.

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Re: Why ND's Mediocre Ranking?

Postby de5igual » Sun Dec 11, 2011 8:31 pm

johansantana21 wrote:
Hjones33 wrote:
johansantana21 wrote:Why it's mediocre ranking?

Cuz it's a mediocre law school.


I know this is TLS, but since when is 23rd rank mediocre? Especially when you consider a lot of people thinking that if you add more weight to job prospects it would be a t20.


Have you looked at job prospects?

There's a huge dropoff in job prospects from around 17ish to everyone below.

50% biglaw secure to 25%.


ite, no one's "biglaw secure"

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Re: Why ND's Mediocre Ranking?

Postby johansantana21 » Sun Dec 11, 2011 8:32 pm

f0bolous wrote:
johansantana21 wrote:
Hjones33 wrote:
johansantana21 wrote:Why it's mediocre ranking?

Cuz it's a mediocre law school.


I know this is TLS, but since when is 23rd rank mediocre? Especially when you consider a lot of people thinking that if you add more weight to job prospects it would be a t20.


Have you looked at job prospects?

There's a huge dropoff in job prospects from around 17ish to everyone below.

50% biglaw secure to 25%.


ite, no one's "biglaw secure"


People at Yale disagree.

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Re: Why ND's Mediocre Ranking?

Postby BeerMaker » Sun Dec 11, 2011 8:47 pm

Veyron wrote:
johansantana21 wrote:
Hjones33 wrote:
johansantana21 wrote:Why it's mediocre ranking?

Cuz it's a mediocre law school.


I know this is TLS, but since when is 23rd rank mediocre? Especially when you consider a lot of people thinking that if you add more weight to job prospects it would be a t20.


Have you looked at job prospects?

There's a huge dropoff in job prospects from around 17ish to everyone below.

50% biglaw secure to 25%.


ND was NEVER 50% biglaw secure and is not 25% biglaw secure today. During the boom, GULC was about 50% biglaw secure.


Just out of curiosity, how biglaw secure is Michigan and NU?

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Veyron
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Re: Why ND's Mediocre Ranking?

Postby Veyron » Sun Dec 11, 2011 8:58 pm

[/quote]Just out of curiosity, how biglaw secure is Michigan and NU?[/quote]

Well, someone pointed out that no one is biglaw secure ITE. I'd say about 1/2 the class that wants it will get it at those schools.

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Re: Why ND's Mediocre Ranking?

Postby ahnhub » Sun Dec 11, 2011 9:05 pm

Well, someone pointed out that no one is biglaw secure ITE. I'd say about 1/2 the class that wants it will get it at those schools.


C/O 2011, maybe. Around 2/3 is probably more accurate now (although for some reason Michigan seemed to have struggled more than its peers to put people into Biglaw for C/O 2012. Still trying to figure that out).

And there was never any such thing as "Biglaw secure" before ITE. That was true for maybe 5 schools for exactly two years, right at the height of the bubble--2006/2007. Columbia was getting like 95% SA jobs those years, I think. In a normal economy anyone at any school stands a non-negligible risk of not getting a 160K job.

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Veyron
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Re: Why ND's Mediocre Ranking?

Postby Veyron » Sun Dec 11, 2011 9:51 pm

ahnhub wrote:
Well, someone pointed out that no one is biglaw secure ITE. I'd say about 1/2 the class that wants it will get it at those schools.


C/O 2011, maybe. Around 2/3 is probably more accurate now (although for some reason Michigan seemed to have struggled more than its peers to put people into Biglaw for C/O 2012. Still trying to figure that out).

And there was never any such thing as "Biglaw secure" before ITE. That was true for maybe 5 schools for exactly two years, right at the height of the bubble--2006/2007. Columbia was getting like 95% SA jobs those years, I think. In a normal economy anyone at any school stands a non-negligible risk of not getting a 160K job.


No, class of 2011 did WAY worse than that. Those were the guys who did OCI in 2009.

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Re: Why ND's Mediocre Ranking?

Postby Geist13 » Sun Dec 11, 2011 10:03 pm

Lets assume ND had the best business school in the world. Let's say that it had the best undergraduate program in the world. Hell lets say that every school at ND was considered the best in the world, EXCEPT the law school. Why would those other schools have any impact on the law school's ranking. It's a ranking of law schools; not a ranking of law schools plus other factors that are unrelated to the law school.

It's ranked where it is because that's where it ranks according the criteria that US NEWS has chosen. Primarily, inflated job placement numbers, faculty to student ratio, dollars spent per student and some other stuff. Other schools have better numbers than they do in these categories, 22 of them to be precise.

Why would the business school have anything to do with this?

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Re: Why ND's Mediocre Ranking?

Postby ahnhub » Sun Dec 11, 2011 10:09 pm

No, class of 2011 did WAY worse than that. Those were the guys who did OCI in 2009.


Okay, I believe you. 2009 OCI was horrible, by all indications.

But 2010 OCI seems to have been better (Columbia/Chicago/Duke all reported 65% or better of their class getting at least one offer, I think--that's the whole class, not accounting for non-OCI participants) and from the info flying around this board 2011 OCI was probably a little bit better than that. So I still think T-14 people who want Biglaw have closer to a 2/3 chance than 1/2 chance. Still- it's just 66% compared to 50%. Not great odds either way. Anyone who goes to law school better have a backup plan.

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Re: Why ND's Mediocre Ranking?

Postby ColtsFan88 » Sun Dec 11, 2011 10:20 pm

In my opinion some people do not know the definition of mediocre in this thread. It Is like 23 of about 200 correct? Maybe not super elite is a better term?

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Re: Why ND's Mediocre Ranking?

Postby 09042014 » Sun Dec 11, 2011 10:45 pm

ahnhub wrote:
Well, someone pointed out that no one is biglaw secure ITE. I'd say about 1/2 the class that wants it will get it at those schools.


C/O 2011, maybe. Around 2/3 is probably more accurate now (although for some reason Michigan seemed to have struggled more than its peers to put people into Biglaw for C/O 2012. Still trying to figure that out).

And there was never any such thing as "Biglaw secure" before ITE. That was true for maybe 5 schools for exactly two years, right at the height of the bubble--2006/2007. Columbia was getting like 95% SA jobs those years, I think. In a normal economy anyone at any school stands a non-negligible risk of not getting a 160K job.


I've seen data from Northwestern's 08 OCI. Only 10% got zero callbacks. And even people below 3.0 (i.e. didn't even try) got a median of 2 callbacks. And that is OCI data only, that doesn't include non OCI jobs.

07 was supposed to be better than 08.

For a long time t14 basically meant big law.

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Re: Why ND's Mediocre Ranking?

Postby IAFG » Sun Dec 11, 2011 10:47 pm

ahnhub wrote:
Well, someone pointed out that no one is biglaw secure ITE. I'd say about 1/2 the class that wants it will get it at those schools.


C/O 2011, maybe. Around 2/3 is probably more accurate now (although for some reason Michigan seemed to have struggled more than its peers to put people into Biglaw for C/O 2012. Still trying to figure that out).

And there was never any such thing as "Biglaw secure" before ITE. That was true for maybe 5 schools for exactly two years, right at the height of the bubble--2006/2007. Columbia was getting like 95% SA jobs those years, I think. In a normal economy anyone at any school stands a non-negligible risk of not getting a 160K job.

I heard OCS told them to bid Chicago. That was... a bad call.

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Re: Why ND's Mediocre Ranking?

Postby Veyron » Sun Dec 11, 2011 10:49 pm

Desert Fox wrote:
ahnhub wrote:
Well, someone pointed out that no one is biglaw secure ITE. I'd say about 1/2 the class that wants it will get it at those schools.


C/O 2011, maybe. Around 2/3 is probably more accurate now (although for some reason Michigan seemed to have struggled more than its peers to put people into Biglaw for C/O 2012. Still trying to figure that out).

And there was never any such thing as "Biglaw secure" before ITE. That was true for maybe 5 schools for exactly two years, right at the height of the bubble--2006/2007. Columbia was getting like 95% SA jobs those years, I think. In a normal economy anyone at any school stands a non-negligible risk of not getting a 160K job.


I've seen data from Northwestern's 08 OCI. Only 10% got zero callbacks. And even people below 3.0 (i.e. didn't even try) got a median of 2 callbacks. And that is OCI data only, that doesn't include non OCI jobs.

07 was supposed to be better than 08.

For a long time t14 basically meant big law.


08 OCI was B.L. (aka before Lehman [and Bear Sterns for that matter]). Those guys got pwnd on the back end with infinite deferrals/no offers and such but they did alright if you're just looking at OCI numbers.

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Re: Why ND's Mediocre Ranking?

Postby 09042014 » Sun Dec 11, 2011 10:55 pm

Veyron wrote:
Desert Fox wrote:
ahnhub wrote:
Well, someone pointed out that no one is biglaw secure ITE. I'd say about 1/2 the class that wants it will get it at those schools.


C/O 2011, maybe. Around 2/3 is probably more accurate now (although for some reason Michigan seemed to have struggled more than its peers to put people into Biglaw for C/O 2012. Still trying to figure that out).

And there was never any such thing as "Biglaw secure" before ITE. That was true for maybe 5 schools for exactly two years, right at the height of the bubble--2006/2007. Columbia was getting like 95% SA jobs those years, I think. In a normal economy anyone at any school stands a non-negligible risk of not getting a 160K job.


I've seen data from Northwestern's 08 OCI. Only 10% got zero callbacks. And even people below 3.0 (i.e. didn't even try) got a median of 2 callbacks. And that is OCI data only, that doesn't include non OCI jobs.

07 was supposed to be better than 08.

For a long time t14 basically meant big law.


08 OCI was B.L. (aka before Lehman [and Bear Sterns for that matter]). Those guys got pwnd on the back end with infinite deferrals/no offers and such but they did alright if you're just looking at OCI numbers.


It happened after OCI, but still during the end of recruiting. The shit went down mid september. Late callbacks were fucked.

08 was a lot more like 07 than it was 09. But there was some effect. That effect mostly fell on people who struck out at OCI and who were trying massmailing (which BTW is more effective than most people on TLS claim). I've seen three people at my school get post OCI callbacks well into Oct-Dec.

The crash probably only put SA recruiting back 5%.

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Re: Why ND's Mediocre Ranking?

Postby Betharl » Sun Dec 11, 2011 11:30 pm

BeerMaker wrote:(I.e., the lay person is more impressed with ND than Chicago, etc.)


Am I misunderstanding, or are you really saying ND has more lay prestige than the University of Chicago? How can I be the first person in this thread to point that out? What lay people do you know BeerMaker?

Also, I second the opinion that ND is an overrated and not that great UG. Depending on what you want to major in, there are better instate options for people in ND's area. IE, most people from Illinois, Indiana, Wisconsin, and Michigan are probably better off going to their state school (and for MUCH cheaper) than going to ND, once again, depending on what they plan on majoring in. That said, I am sure ND pulls a decent amount of people from outside the Midwest into their entering class.

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Re: Why ND's Mediocre Ranking?

Postby IAFG » Sun Dec 11, 2011 11:32 pm

Betharl wrote:Am I misunderstanding, or are you really saying ND has more lay prestige than the University of Chicago? How can I be the first person in this thread to point that out? What lay people do you know BeerMaker?

Every non-lawyer I know who grew up in or around Chicago would agree with this. Many would not know that UIC and UChicago are separate entities.

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Re: Why ND's Mediocre Ranking?

Postby Betharl » Sun Dec 11, 2011 11:40 pm

IAFG wrote:
Betharl wrote:Am I misunderstanding, or are you really saying ND has more lay prestige than the University of Chicago? How can I be the first person in this thread to point that out? What lay people do you know BeerMaker?

Every non-lawyer I know who grew up in or around Chicago would agree with this. Many would not know that UIC and UChicago are separate entities.


I am from the Chicago area and I definitely have not found that to be the case. People may not initially know which one you are talking about, and in that case they usually ask for clarification, but they realize one is like a T2 and the other is one of the top universities in the country.

EDIT: Or are you saying outside of Chicago people don't know the difference, and thus people from the Chicago area would agree that ND lay prestige>U of C? Because I could see what, I have run into people that also think UIUC is in Chicago.
Last edited by Betharl on Sun Dec 11, 2011 11:44 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Why ND's Mediocre Ranking?

Postby IAFG » Sun Dec 11, 2011 11:43 pm

Betharl wrote:
IAFG wrote:
Betharl wrote:Am I misunderstanding, or are you really saying ND has more lay prestige than the University of Chicago? How can I be the first person in this thread to point that out? What lay people do you know BeerMaker?

Every non-lawyer I know who grew up in or around Chicago would agree with this. Many would not know that UIC and UChicago are separate entities.


I am from the Chicago area and I definitely have not found that to be the case. People may not initially know which one you are talking about, and in that case they usually ask for clarification, but they realize one is like a T2 and the other is one of the top universities in the country.

And that's a great reason why these stupid discussions about lay prestige are worthless; my anecdotal evidence vs yours, etc. If law firms aren't more impressed by ND than UChi, no one cares.

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Re: Why ND's Mediocre Ranking?

Postby BeerMaker » Mon Dec 12, 2011 12:20 am

"Am I misunderstanding, or are you really saying ND has more lay prestige than the University of Chicago? How can I be the first person in this thread to point that out? What lay people do you know BeerMaker?"

I would wager that, outside of Chicago, a majority of U.S. college students would assume ND is a better academic institution than Chicago.

Chicago is not an Ivy League school and so they do not get the media attention of NYU, Cornell, etc. In fact, I am watching a RedBox movie as I write this. It's some movie with Rees Witherspoon and the vampire dude from those popular middle school girl movies. I'm too tired to get up and look at the name, but it's about a circus and an elephant or something. Anyway, the vampire dude went to Cornell in the movie. This is a prime example of what the lay person is exposed to. How often do you see or even hear the name University of Chicago mentioned?

You are correct that it doesn't really matter what the lay person thinks. ND gets a lot of attention from the lay people.

I graduated with a kid who chose ND over Harvard, Princeton, and Yale among others. His reason: his mother could not be talked into believing that Harvard was better than Notre Dame. In small town America, especially in the mid west, the name Notre Dame gives people a hard on for some reason.




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