Is law school worth it 2011 version - prof schlunk

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sunynp
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Re: Is law school worth it 2011 version - prof schlunk

Postby sunynp » Wed Nov 23, 2011 1:32 pm

I am not 100% sure it is worth staying at even a T14 if you don't have a chance at a job, though probably it is. I would like to see him do the calculation. It would be nice to see some sort of analysis of data between the point of 1L and graduating. It might actually be better to have less debt to repay.

It isn't clear what the increased earning potential is for someone at the bottom of their t14 class with no job prospects. I have never seen data on that point. It might be the right financial choice to stay, or it might be better to leave. Cutting your losses seems to be more important outside of the top 14.

The question is: how does a student make that analysis of staying or withdrawing? I don't know if anyone has analyzed that financial decision.

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ThreeRivers
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Re: Is law school worth it 2011 version - prof schlunk

Postby ThreeRivers » Wed Nov 23, 2011 1:51 pm

<Shittiest UG you can imagine, with a shitty LA degree... Probably going to a school in 20-30 range, in which case scholly $ will have huge impact on where I will go.

Also a chance I'll go to a much lower ranked school if scholly is real nice. *Looking at Pitt,* it'd be kind of hard to turn down a school in my backyard if I could get a legal education there for 10 k a year or so...

So tbh I really don't have a clue were I rank the schools I applied to right now..

I know LS is a large risk, but one I'm willing to take

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Gail
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Re: Is law school worth it 2011 version - prof schlunk

Postby Gail » Wed Nov 23, 2011 4:39 pm

LMAO @ assuming you're getting a job out of UG.

As if it is such a sure thing.

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sunynp
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Re: Is law school worth it 2011 version - prof schlunk

Postby sunynp » Wed Nov 23, 2011 5:01 pm

The article accounts for people who don't have jobs after undergrad as having an oppurtunity cost of zero. But that alone is not enough to justify the cost and time of law school. It depends where you go and how much it costs. You don't want to end up with three years of debt and no job after going to law school. Going to law school can make your situation worse in some circumstances. Again, the main point is that it is a very individual decision.

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ThreeRivers
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Re: Is law school worth it 2011 version - prof schlunk

Postby ThreeRivers » Wed Nov 23, 2011 5:59 pm

Gail wrote:LMAO @ assuming you're getting a job out of UG.

As if it is such a sure thing.

Yea, I agree with his message, but some of those median salaries after graduation were a bit :shock:. I know a ton of recent UG graduates, most are unemployed the others took some job that doesn't make shit / keep searching for a somewhat better job without much luck... I've litterly don't know 1 person who starts out at some of those salaries he listed like they were nbd lol

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ThreeRivers
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Re: Is law school worth it 2011 version - prof schlunk

Postby ThreeRivers » Wed Nov 23, 2011 6:01 pm

For example, this sentence blew my mind...

Degrees in political science and economics, two fields which might be considered more natural or appropriate for future law school attendees, fall in between, with starting median salaries of $39,900 and $47,300, respectively, and mid-career median salaries of $80,100 and $94,700, respectively.

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Gail
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Re: Is law school worth it 2011 version - prof schlunk

Postby Gail » Wed Nov 23, 2011 6:30 pm

ThreeRivers wrote:For example, this sentence blew my mind...

Degrees in political science and economics, two fields which might be considered more natural or appropriate for future law school attendees, fall in between, with starting median salaries of $39,900 and $47,300, respectively, and mid-career median salaries of $80,100 and $94,700, respectively.


Yeah. This, like most of TLS, is just an awesome example of how beyond reality most people really are.

LS isn't a great investment. It can be a terrible investment (probably a terrible investment for me and 95% of everyone else). But 47,300 starting out for a liberal arts degree made me shoot milk from my nose.

Don't be retarded, people. Lawyers make more than you're going to make with your degree unless you were highly math/science intensive.

I'm not even LA degree, but honestly if the ratio of unpaid internships/paid internships is any indication of how fucked I really am, I'm super fucked out of UG and if I did take a year or two off I would simply have to accept a temp job making 12-15.

Let the good times roll, right? Right. 2+ years of experience for an entry level job my dick. :evil:

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JustE
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Re: Is law school worth it 2011 version - prof schlunk

Postby JustE » Wed Nov 23, 2011 8:45 pm

Wait, you can't eat prestige?

I'm f#%@ed.

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ThreeRivers
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Re: Is law school worth it 2011 version - prof schlunk

Postby ThreeRivers » Wed Nov 23, 2011 9:49 pm

Let's be honest... the market sucks for everyone, its hard as hell for everyone to get a job. Its a similar situation for LS

Its a much higher-risk / slightly higher reward for LS though... because the high end of law students make more than what you would in UG, but if you end up in the "can't find a " or "got a shitty low paying job" class you'll have a TON more debt than those in similar situations after UG

I really wish there was only 50 LS / that's IT(and they kept their class sizes the same). If you can't make it in that you're better off not going

lsatcrazy
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Re: Is law school worth it 2011 version - prof schlunk

Postby lsatcrazy » Wed Nov 23, 2011 9:57 pm

Waiting for MTal...

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IAFG
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Re: Is law school worth it 2011 version - prof schlunk

Postby IAFG » Wed Nov 23, 2011 10:04 pm

ThreeRivers wrote:
Gail wrote:LMAO @ assuming you're getting a job out of UG.

As if it is such a sure thing.

Yea, I agree with his message, but some of those median salaries after graduation were a bit :shock:. I know a ton of recent UG graduates, most are unemployed the others took some job that doesn't make shit / keep searching for a somewhat better job without much luck... I've litterly don't know 1 person who starts out at some of those salaries he listed like they were nbd lol

It was typical or even on the lower end when I was graduating in 2006. I wonder how far back his sample stretches.

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ThreeRivers
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Re: Is law school worth it 2011 version - prof schlunk

Postby ThreeRivers » Wed Nov 23, 2011 11:33 pm

I agree with the premise 100%, just a lot of the info seemed like wild speculation with numbers pulled out of nowhere. Still I agree with "every situation is different" as compared to: YAYYYY I'M IN LS I'LL BE RICHHHH or LAW SCHOOL IS DEATH FOR ALL

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MrPapagiorgio
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Re: Is law school worth it 2011 version - prof schlunk

Postby MrPapagiorgio » Wed Nov 23, 2011 11:34 pm

lsatcrazy wrote:Waiting for MTal...

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180asBreath
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Re: Is law school worth it 2011 version - prof schlunk

Postby 180asBreath » Wed Nov 23, 2011 11:47 pm

ThreeRivers wrote:For example, this sentence blew my mind...

Degrees in political science and economics, two fields which might be considered more natural or appropriate for future law school attendees, fall in between, with starting median salaries of $39,900 and $47,300, respectively, and mid-career median salaries of $80,100 and $94,700, respectively.


That's because it doesn't apply, at all, to our generation. Those with BA's in Political Science and Economics, who are making "mid-career" salaries, were in an entirely different job market than modern day students.

I think everyone needs to stop being so ridiculous with the notions of dropping out in your 3rd year, just because you don't have a job lined up. You should be able to hustle and find some legal job, within that year, and work your way up. What, do you think the non-legal market has an abundance of jobs? You're going to be in a competitive market, no matter what it is; you might as well finish your legal education and pursue a job that would make 1.5 to 2x the poverty line, instead of a job that pays below it.

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snailio
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Re: Is law school worth it 2011 version - prof schlunk

Postby snailio » Wed Nov 23, 2011 11:59 pm

IAFG wrote:
sunynp wrote:I laughed at the sentence where he says: every student admitted considers themselves to be at worst above average, however, statistically this can not be the case.

I laughed because that is so true; however, I think the perception that everyone has that they will at worst be above median is a big part of the reason people have trouble realistically evaluating the investment decision to go to law school. If everyone thinks they will do well, statistics about hiring don't really concern them.

I think most people would agree that law school is a risky financial proposition. But the same people feel that the risk is worth it for them because they assume they will do well.

In the three fictional cases he examines, law school is worth it for only 20% to 30% of the class. He also finds that only 1/3 of the total graduates( not including clerks or others who continue their education) have a starting salary of $65,000 or higher.

His analysis is too detailed to fully explain here and I'm sure people may argue with some of his assumptions. At least this can provide a starting point for people to make their own individual analysis of whether law school is a good investment.

I always say you should not attend any school that won't get you the job you want from the median.



This is a pretty reasonable position ITE.

Flanker1067
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Re: Is law school worth it 2011 version - prof schlunk

Postby Flanker1067 » Thu Nov 24, 2011 12:05 am

^ is questionable since half (less, but whatever) will be below median. I say this from experience.

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snailio
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Re: Is law school worth it 2011 version - prof schlunk

Postby snailio » Thu Nov 24, 2011 12:10 am

Flanker1067 wrote:^ is questionable since half (less, but whatever) will be below median. I say this from experience.



IAFG's statement assumes median, not if.

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johansantana21
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Re: Is law school worth it 2011 version - prof schlunk

Postby johansantana21 » Thu Nov 24, 2011 7:41 am

IAFG wrote:
sunynp wrote:I laughed at the sentence where he says: every student admitted considers themselves to be at worst above average, however, statistically this can not be the case.

I laughed because that is so true; however, I think the perception that everyone has that they will at worst be above median is a big part of the reason people have trouble realistically evaluating the investment decision to go to law school. If everyone thinks they will do well, statistics about hiring don't really concern them.

I think most people would agree that law school is a risky financial proposition. But the same people feel that the risk is worth it for them because they assume they will do well.

In the three fictional cases he examines, law school is worth it for only 20% to 30% of the class. He also finds that only 1/3 of the total graduates( not including clerks or others who continue their education) have a starting salary of $65,000 or higher.

His analysis is too detailed to fully explain here and I'm sure people may argue with some of his assumptions. At least this can provide a starting point for people to make their own individual analysis of whether law school is a good investment.

I always say you should not attend any school that won't get you the job you want from the median.


So if you want biglaw then you shouldn't go to any schools outside of HYSCC?

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sawwaverunner
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Re: Is law school worth it 2011 version - prof schlunk

Postby sawwaverunner » Thu Nov 24, 2011 10:16 am

I wish Bar Review was only $2000. I locked in 2009 tuition and it still costs approx. $3300.

ahnhub
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Re: Is law school worth it 2011 version - prof schlunk

Postby ahnhub » Thu Nov 24, 2011 11:14 am

The article actually presumed the existence of something a lot of TLS people claim is a unicorn: the 60-80k entry-level job in a non-Biglaw firm, with reasonable career prospects.

I honestly think almost everyone on this forum is well aware that Biglaw is by no means guaranteed, even at a top school. The million-dollar question is over whether there are good options after Biglaw that are attainable by non-superstar students. If there are not, then all of this T-5 or bust, HYS or bust talk is probably merited no matter what your situation or opportunity cost.

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IAFG
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Re: Is law school worth it 2011 version - prof schlunk

Postby IAFG » Thu Nov 24, 2011 4:15 pm

johansantana21 wrote:
IAFG wrote:
sunynp wrote:I laughed at the sentence where he says: every student admitted considers themselves to be at worst above average, however, statistically this can not be the case.

I laughed because that is so true; however, I think the perception that everyone has that they will at worst be above median is a big part of the reason people have trouble realistically evaluating the investment decision to go to law school. If everyone thinks they will do well, statistics about hiring don't really concern them.

I think most people would agree that law school is a risky financial proposition. But the same people feel that the risk is worth it for them because they assume they will do well.

In the three fictional cases he examines, law school is worth it for only 20% to 30% of the class. He also finds that only 1/3 of the total graduates( not including clerks or others who continue their education) have a starting salary of $65,000 or higher.

His analysis is too detailed to fully explain here and I'm sure people may argue with some of his assumptions. At least this can provide a starting point for people to make their own individual analysis of whether law school is a good investment.

I always say you should not attend any school that won't get you the job you want from the median.


So if you want biglaw then you shouldn't go to any schools outside of HYSCC?

Who told you median at Duke, Virginia, Northwestern, Penn, etc wasn't getting biglaw?

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johansantana21
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Re: Is law school worth it 2011 version - prof schlunk

Postby johansantana21 » Thu Nov 24, 2011 9:07 pm

IAFG wrote:
johansantana21 wrote:
IAFG wrote:
sunynp wrote:I laughed at the sentence where he says: every student admitted considers themselves to be at worst above average, however, statistically this can not be the case.

I laughed because that is so true; however, I think the perception that everyone has that they will at worst be above median is a big part of the reason people have trouble realistically evaluating the investment decision to go to law school. If everyone thinks they will do well, statistics about hiring don't really concern them.

I think most people would agree that law school is a risky financial proposition. But the same people feel that the risk is worth it for them because they assume they will do well.

In the three fictional cases he examines, law school is worth it for only 20% to 30% of the class. He also finds that only 1/3 of the total graduates( not including clerks or others who continue their education) have a starting salary of $65,000 or higher.

His analysis is too detailed to fully explain here and I'm sure people may argue with some of his assumptions. At least this can provide a starting point for people to make their own individual analysis of whether law school is a good investment.

I always say you should not attend any school that won't get you the job you want from the median.


So if you want biglaw then you shouldn't go to any schools outside of HYSCC?

Who told you median at Duke, Virginia, Northwestern, Penn, etc wasn't getting biglaw?


"Get you the job you want from median"

Most people at median at Duke, Virginia, etc are not getting biglaw jobs at median.

Median at a lower T14= pretty bad chances at biglaw.

So by your analysis pretty bad chances at biglaw from median = worth it, while really bad chances at biglaw from median = not worth it.

A far cry from "won't get you the job you want from median".

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IAFG
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Re: Is law school worth it 2011 version - prof schlunk

Postby IAFG » Thu Nov 24, 2011 9:16 pm

johansantana21 wrote:
"Get you the job you want from median"

Most people at median at Duke, Virginia, etc are not getting biglaw jobs at median.

Median at a lower T14= pretty bad chances at biglaw.

So by your analysis pretty bad chances at biglaw from median = worth it, while really bad chances at biglaw from median = not worth it.

A far cry from "won't get you the job you want from median".

What on earth is your basis for believing median lower/mid T14 doesn't give you a good chance at biglaw?
Last edited by IAFG on Thu Nov 24, 2011 9:20 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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johansantana21
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Re: Is law school worth it 2011 version - prof schlunk

Postby johansantana21 » Thu Nov 24, 2011 9:20 pm

IAFG wrote:[quote="johansantana21

"Get you the job you want from median"

Most people at median at Duke, Virginia, etc are not getting biglaw jobs at median.

Median at a lower T14= pretty bad chances at biglaw.

So by your analysis pretty bad chances at biglaw from median = worth it, while really bad chances at biglaw from median = not worth it.

A far cry from "won't get you the job you want from median".

What on earth is your basis for believing median lower/mid T14 doesn't give you a good chance at biglaw?[/quote]

Statistics? Median at NW = good chance at biglaw? Even if you include A3 Clerkships + PI + Gov for self selection, you think being straight up median at NW = good chance at biglaw?

Have you seen the latest NLJ250 numbers for c/o 2010? NW did 44.37%.

You exclude people with boosts such as IP or diversity, and then add in self selection for A3 + PI + Gov, and you think straight up median = better than 50% shot at biglaw?

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IAFG
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Re: Is law school worth it 2011 version - prof schlunk

Postby IAFG » Thu Nov 24, 2011 9:24 pm

Yes I absolutely think median at NU gives you a GREAT chance at biglaw from NU.




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