The Law School Scam

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glitter178
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Re: The Law School Scam

Postby glitter178 » Wed Nov 16, 2011 4:32 pm

whyyyyyyyyyy are you asking this guy's advice? he is no expert on law school or the legal field!

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whuts4lunch
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Re: The Law School Scam

Postby whuts4lunch » Wed Nov 16, 2011 4:32 pm

MTal wrote:It's better than going and hoping for biglaw, but you're still facing an uphill battle. Since law school doesn't teach you jack about the actual PRACTICE of law, you will need a mentor for at least the first year you're out to teach you everything. A lot of the above work is handled by solos, not firms, so you will have to work for one, be friends with one, work out some type of office sharing arrangement etc, but you will need to know SOMEONE who can show you the ropes so you don't commit malpractice your first year. If you come out of law school with 100k in debt (currently that's about the average) you will face a severe uphill battle trying to start your own practice. If you have little debt, and can afford to set up your own office, then you are halfway there. Then the other 40 % is hustling trying to find (PAYING) clients. (finding clients is easy, finding those who can pay, not so much). So if practicing in the above areas is your goal, then that's the path I recommend going.


I'm only a first year, but couldn't you do a lot of that mentoring stuff during 2L and 3L? I have little to no debt and a core group of people I'm interested in doing business with, but I would like to hit the ground running post-grad as soon as possible.

c3pO4
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Re: The Law School Scam

Postby c3pO4 » Wed Nov 16, 2011 4:33 pm

Veyron wrote:
c3pO4 wrote:
Veyron wrote:
Right, but as long as that IS the model, I think I'm decently situated to capitalize on it, which is why I'm skeptical of this "drop out" advice.


You shouldn't drop out, but you are dead wrong that you've done anything to "work up" the ladder in a legal career. Nothing that happens in law school counts, except for getting a law job. It's just a race to get through a very small gateway (one that not everybody at even your T7 will get through). Drop the attitude before OCI, interviewers can smell it. Get ready to work hard and start from the bottom once you graduate.


Isn't getting a good job at least half the battle though?


No. Does a cook at McDonalds who ends up being CEO say getting their first job is half the battle? If you want a biglaw career, i.e. to make partner, getting a job means nothing. If you want to leave biglaw and go in house, getting a job means nothing. You gotta put in the ridiculous hours and not get shitcanned before you pay your loans off for a decade --- you can't count the LSAT and doing well in undergrad as "paying your due."

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bigeast03
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Re: The Law School Scam

Postby bigeast03 » Wed Nov 16, 2011 4:34 pm

whuts4lunch wrote:
bigeast03 wrote:
whuts4lunch wrote:Anyone care to comment on bankruptcy, foreclosure, immigration, plaintiffs work, medical malpractice, and healthcare?

It seems to me that the large firm model is in trouble, but that there are plenty of opportunities in the fields I just mentioned. I mean, we have so many foreclosures to deal it seems that there will be plenty of work just in foreclosures for the next 10+ years.



I'm at a real estate firm right now, albeit small and local, and while the people who are working here aren't making it rain, there is plenty of work to go around. I don't find real estate all too enjoyable, but if it's your thing there definitely is work.


Do you think there is potential for them to start making it rain at some point? Seems to me that if you keep a business stocked with a call center reaching out to potential clients you could make a killing on volume.


A lot of that is going to be building a relationship not only with real estate agents, but also with relocation companies. It's also very important to have good paralegals, as you won't have time to get through closings at a rate that would generate a lot of profit otherwise. It entirely depends on where you are, how you network, and what not, but in all likelihood, I don't know if you'll advance much past upper-middle class. This is not a bad situation though.

071816
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Re: The Law School Scam

Postby 071816 » Wed Nov 16, 2011 4:34 pm

glitter178 wrote:whyyyyyyyyyy are you asking this guy's advice? he is no expert on law school or the legal field!


+1

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whuts4lunch
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Re: The Law School Scam

Postby whuts4lunch » Wed Nov 16, 2011 4:34 pm

glitter178 wrote:whyyyyyyyyyy are you asking this guy's advice? he is no expert on law school or the legal field!


ehh, getting opinions from a variety of sources is helpful, and he seems to have substantive things to say

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MTal
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Re: The Law School Scam

Postby MTal » Wed Nov 16, 2011 4:35 pm

HeavenWood wrote:I'm a 1L, also at Penn, and I'm starting to worry because my LSAT is on the lower side and I don't feel as smart or accomplished as my peers. I fear I won't even make median. MTal: If I drop out now, I'm pretty sure I can get my tuition back. Should I take a chance or GTFO while I still can?


It's a tough call cause you're borderline like Veyron. Like I said, if you've got connections, scholarship, and networking/sales ability it may be worth sticking it out at least through 1st semester and seeing how well you do. If you finish in the top half, I'd say stick with it and see if you can get into top 3rd. If you're bottom half at the end of 1st semester and you did your best, it may be time to look at the writing on the walls.

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whuts4lunch
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Re: The Law School Scam

Postby whuts4lunch » Wed Nov 16, 2011 4:38 pm

bigeast03 wrote:
whuts4lunch wrote:
bigeast03 wrote:
whuts4lunch wrote:Anyone care to comment on bankruptcy, foreclosure, immigration, plaintiffs work, medical malpractice, and healthcare?

It seems to me that the large firm model is in trouble, but that there are plenty of opportunities in the fields I just mentioned. I mean, we have so many foreclosures to deal it seems that there will be plenty of work just in foreclosures for the next 10+ years.



I'm at a real estate firm right now, albeit small and local, and while the people who are working here aren't making it rain, there is plenty of work to go around. I don't find real estate all too enjoyable, but if it's your thing there definitely is work.


Do you think there is potential for them to start making it rain at some point? Seems to me that if you keep a business stocked with a call center reaching out to potential clients you could make a killing on volume.


A lot of that is going to be building a relationship not only with real estate agents, but also with relocation companies. It's also very important to have good paralegals, as you won't have time to get through closings at a rate that would generate a lot of profit otherwise. It entirely depends on where you are, how you network, and what not, but in all likelihood, I don't know if you'll advance much past upper-middle class. This is not a bad situation though.


thanks for input

HeavenWood
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Re: The Law School Scam

Postby HeavenWood » Wed Nov 16, 2011 4:39 pm

MTal wrote:
HeavenWood wrote:I'm a 1L, also at Penn, and I'm starting to worry because my LSAT is on the lower side and I don't feel as smart or accomplished as my peers. I fear I won't even make median. MTal: If I drop out now, I'm pretty sure I can get my tuition back. Should I take a chance or GTFO while I still can?


It's a tough call cause you're borderline like Veyron. Like I said, if you've got connections, scholarship, and networking/sales ability it may be worth sticking it out at least through 1st semester and seeing how well you do. If you finish in the top half, I'd say stick with it and see if you can get into top 3rd. If you're bottom half at the end of 1st semester and you did your best, it may be time to look at the writing on the walls.

Some connections, no scholarship, average networking/sales ability. I had heard that about 3/4 of this year's 2L class was satisfied at OCI time. Do you think a lot of people were lying and that I really need top 1/3 or better to have a shot at biglaw?
Last edited by HeavenWood on Wed Nov 16, 2011 4:41 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Grizz
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Re: The Law School Scam

Postby Grizz » Wed Nov 16, 2011 4:39 pm

MTal;dr

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MTal
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Re: The Law School Scam

Postby MTal » Wed Nov 16, 2011 4:42 pm

HeavenWood wrote:
MTal wrote:
HeavenWood wrote:I'm a 1L, also at Penn, and I'm starting to worry because my LSAT is on the lower side and I don't feel as smart or accomplished as my peers. I fear I won't even make median. MTal: If I drop out now, I'm pretty sure I can get my tuition back. Should I take a chance or GTFO while I still can?


It's a tough call cause you're borderline like Veyron. Like I said, if you've got connections, scholarship, and networking/sales ability it may be worth sticking it out at least through 1st semester and seeing how well you do. If you finish in the top half, I'd say stick with it and see if you can get into top 3rd. If you're bottom half at the end of 1st semester and you did your best, it may be time to look at the writing on the walls.

Some connections, no scholarship, average networking/sales ability. I had heard that about 3/4 of this year's 2L class was satisfied at OCI time. Do you think a lot of people were lying and that I really need top 1/3 or betting to have a shot at biglaw?


At Pen I would think top 50 % plus decent interview skills would be enough for biglaw. Any way you look at it though, it is still a gamble.

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whuts4lunch
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Re: The Law School Scam

Postby whuts4lunch » Wed Nov 16, 2011 4:42 pm

HeavenWood wrote:Some connections, no scholarship, average networking/sales ability. I had heard that about 3/4 of this year's 2L class was satisfied at OCI time. Do you think a lot of people were lying and that I really need top 1/3 or betting to have a shot at biglaw?


Doesn't Penn have blind OCI? Wouldn't firm hiring at such a place be more about who you are and what you can do rather than simply grades? Curious because I am interested in possibly transferring there if I do well in 1L.

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bigeast03
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Re: The Law School Scam

Postby bigeast03 » Wed Nov 16, 2011 4:43 pm

It seems to me that the large firm model is in trouble, but that there are plenty of opportunities in the fields I just mentioned. I mean, we have so many foreclosures to deal it seems that there will be plenty of work just in foreclosures for the next 10+ years.[/quote]


I'm at a real estate firm right now, albeit small and local, and while the people who are working here aren't making it rain, there is plenty of work to go around. I don't find real estate all too enjoyable, but if it's your thing there definitely is work.[/quote]

Do you think there is potential for them to start making it rain at some point? Seems to me that if you keep a business stocked with a call center reaching out to potential clients you could make a killing on volume.[/quote]

A lot of that is going to be building a relationship not only with real estate agents, but also with relocation companies. It's also very important to have good paralegals, as you won't have time to get through closings at a rate that would generate a lot of profit otherwise. It entirely depends on where you are, how you network, and what not, but in all likelihood, I don't know if you'll advance much past upper-middle class. This is not a bad situation though.[/quote]

thanks for input[/quote]

Sure thing. Keep in mind I'm only an intern at a small firm, but if you have any questions about real estate practice or whatever, feel free to shoot a pm.

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D-hops
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Re: The Law School Scam

Postby D-hops » Wed Nov 16, 2011 4:45 pm

whuts4lunch wrote:
HeavenWood wrote:Some connections, no scholarship, average networking/sales ability. I had heard that about 3/4 of this year's 2L class was satisfied at OCI time. Do you think a lot of people were lying and that I really need top 1/3 or betting to have a shot at biglaw?


Doesn't Penn have blind OCI? Wouldn't firm hiring at such a place be more about who you are and what you can do rather than simply grades? Curious because I am interested in possibly transferring there if I do well in 1L.


The OCI lottery may be blind, but the firms are going to see a transcript before they give you a callback or a job offer.

HeavenWood
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Re: The Law School Scam

Postby HeavenWood » Wed Nov 16, 2011 4:45 pm

MTal wrote:
HeavenWood wrote:
MTal wrote:
HeavenWood wrote:I'm a 1L, also at Penn, and I'm starting to worry because my LSAT is on the lower side and I don't feel as smart or accomplished as my peers. I fear I won't even make median. MTal: If I drop out now, I'm pretty sure I can get my tuition back. Should I take a chance or GTFO while I still can?


It's a tough call cause you're borderline like Veyron. Like I said, if you've got connections, scholarship, and networking/sales ability it may be worth sticking it out at least through 1st semester and seeing how well you do. If you finish in the top half, I'd say stick with it and see if you can get into top 3rd. If you're bottom half at the end of 1st semester and you did your best, it may be time to look at the writing on the walls.

Some connections, no scholarship, average networking/sales ability. I had heard that about 3/4 of this year's 2L class was satisfied at OCI time. Do you think a lot of people were lying and that I really need top 1/3 or betting to have a shot at biglaw?


At Pen I would think top 50 % plus decent interview skills would be enough for biglaw. Any way you look at it though, it is still a gamble.

hmm... unless I do absolutely terrible (get multiple B-'s and/or discretionary C's) and don't end up with a 1L summer job, do you think it would be ok if I waited until OCI to make a final decision? IE, if I end up getting no offers, I can just drop out then?

ToTransferOrNot
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Re: The Law School Scam

Postby ToTransferOrNot » Wed Nov 16, 2011 4:45 pm

whuts4lunch wrote:
HeavenWood wrote:Some connections, no scholarship, average networking/sales ability. I had heard that about 3/4 of this year's 2L class was satisfied at OCI time. Do you think a lot of people were lying and that I really need top 1/3 or betting to have a shot at biglaw?


Doesn't Penn have blind OCI? Wouldn't firm hiring at such a place be more about who you are and what you can do rather than simply grades? Curious because I am interested in possibly transferring there if I do well in 1L.


Blind OCI just means they can't ax you for failing to meet their GPA requirement until they have your resume in your hands.

Edit: Which is why blind OCIs are fucking retarded.

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whuts4lunch
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Re: The Law School Scam

Postby whuts4lunch » Wed Nov 16, 2011 4:47 pm

D-hops wrote:
whuts4lunch wrote:
HeavenWood wrote:Some connections, no scholarship, average networking/sales ability. I had heard that about 3/4 of this year's 2L class was satisfied at OCI time. Do you think a lot of people were lying and that I really need top 1/3 or betting to have a shot at biglaw?


Doesn't Penn have blind OCI? Wouldn't firm hiring at such a place be more about who you are and what you can do rather than simply grades? Curious because I am interested in possibly transferring there if I do well in 1L.


The OCI lottery may be blind, but the firms are going to see a transcript before they give you a callback or a job offer.


but at that point don't you already have your foot in the door? I mean, are they really going to say "we think this person would be a valuable asset to our firm, let's just take a look here at these grades.... bottom half? yea, let's reject him"?

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Larry David
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Re: The Law School Scam

Postby Larry David » Wed Nov 16, 2011 4:47 pm

MTal wrote:
whuts4lunch wrote:Anyone care to comment on bankruptcy, foreclosure, immigration, plaintiffs work, medical malpractice, and healthcare?

It seems to me that the large firm model is in trouble, but that there are plenty of opportunities in the fields I just mentioned. I mean, we have so many foreclosures to deal it seems that there will be plenty of work just in foreclosures for the next 10+ years.


From what I know, I believe the above fields will continue to grow or be steady, with the exceptions of plaintiffs work and MedMal. A lot of states are really cracking down on giant jury awards through tort r(de)eform.


Medmal Cap was just struck down by Georgia supreme court if anyone cares

HeavenWood
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Re: The Law School Scam

Postby HeavenWood » Wed Nov 16, 2011 4:47 pm

whuts4lunch wrote:
D-hops wrote:
whuts4lunch wrote:
HeavenWood wrote:Some connections, no scholarship, average networking/sales ability. I had heard that about 3/4 of this year's 2L class was satisfied at OCI time. Do you think a lot of people were lying and that I really need top 1/3 or betting to have a shot at biglaw?


Doesn't Penn have blind OCI? Wouldn't firm hiring at such a place be more about who you are and what you can do rather than simply grades? Curious because I am interested in possibly transferring there if I do well in 1L.


The OCI lottery may be blind, but the firms are going to see a transcript before they give you a callback or a job offer.


but at that point don't you already have your foot in the door? I mean, are they really going to say "we think this person would be a valuable asset to our firm, let's just take a look here at these grades.... bottom half? yea, let's reject him"

Is it a bright line top half/bottom half distinction? We don't rank, so I'd think there would be at least a little more wiggle room?

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D-hops
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Re: The Law School Scam

Postby D-hops » Wed Nov 16, 2011 4:48 pm

whuts4lunch wrote:
D-hops wrote:
whuts4lunch wrote:
HeavenWood wrote:Some connections, no scholarship, average networking/sales ability. I had heard that about 3/4 of this year's 2L class was satisfied at OCI time. Do you think a lot of people were lying and that I really need top 1/3 or betting to have a shot at biglaw?


Doesn't Penn have blind OCI? Wouldn't firm hiring at such a place be more about who you are and what you can do rather than simply grades? Curious because I am interested in possibly transferring there if I do well in 1L.


The OCI lottery may be blind, but the firms are going to see a transcript before they give you a callback or a job offer.


but at that point don't you already have your foot in the door? I mean, are they really going to say "we think this person would be a valuable asset to our firm, let's just take a look here at these grades.... bottom half? yea, let's reject him"?


That is exactly what they will do.

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MTal
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Re: The Law School Scam

Postby MTal » Wed Nov 16, 2011 4:48 pm

HeavenWood wrote:hmm... unless I do absolutely terrible (get multiple B-'s and/or discretionary C's) and don't end up with a 1L summer job, do you think it would be ok if I waited until OCI to make a final decision? IE, if I end up getting no offers, I can just drop out then?


It's a borderline case, but that sounds reasonable.

ToTransferOrNot
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Re: The Law School Scam

Postby ToTransferOrNot » Wed Nov 16, 2011 4:49 pm

whuts4lunch wrote:
D-hops wrote:
whuts4lunch wrote:
HeavenWood wrote:Some connections, no scholarship, average networking/sales ability. I had heard that about 3/4 of this year's 2L class was satisfied at OCI time. Do you think a lot of people were lying and that I really need top 1/3 or betting to have a shot at biglaw?


Doesn't Penn have blind OCI? Wouldn't firm hiring at such a place be more about who you are and what you can do rather than simply grades? Curious because I am interested in possibly transferring there if I do well in 1L.


The OCI lottery may be blind, but the firms are going to see a transcript before they give you a callback or a job offer.


but at that point don't you already have your foot in the door? I mean, are they really going to say "we think this person would be a valuable asset to our firm, let's just take a look here at these grades.... bottom half? yea, let's reject him"?


Yes. Yes, they will. Mainly because they're not going to think you'd be a valuable asset to the firm if your grades suck.

Obviously they're not going to say "oops you're 1 slot below 50%, so no dice" in most cases, but like it or not, firms care about grades.

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Grizz
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Re: The Law School Scam

Postby Grizz » Wed Nov 16, 2011 4:49 pm

whuts4lunch wrote:
D-hops wrote:
whuts4lunch wrote:
HeavenWood wrote:Some connections, no scholarship, average networking/sales ability. I had heard that about 3/4 of this year's 2L class was satisfied at OCI time. Do you think a lot of people were lying and that I really need top 1/3 or betting to have a shot at biglaw?


Doesn't Penn have blind OCI? Wouldn't firm hiring at such a place be more about who you are and what you can do rather than simply grades? Curious because I am interested in possibly transferring there if I do well in 1L.


The OCI lottery may be blind, but the firms are going to see a transcript before they give you a callback or a job offer.


but at that point don't you already have your foot in the door? I mean, are they really going to say "we think this person would be a valuable asset to our firm, let's just take a look here at these grades.... bottom half? yea, let's reject him"?

Go use search to figure out the difference between lottery, preselect, and mixed OCI systems. You're welcome.

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MTal
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Re: The Law School Scam

Postby MTal » Wed Nov 16, 2011 4:50 pm

Larry David wrote:
Medmal Cap was just struck down by Georgia supreme court if anyone cares


On the flipside, states like TX and MS have capped PI damages to around 500k, last I heard.

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Larry David
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Re: The Law School Scam

Postby Larry David » Wed Nov 16, 2011 4:51 pm

So what do TLS people do when they strike out of OCI? Slit wrist?




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