The Law School Scam

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crumpetsandtea
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Re: The Law School Scam

Postby crumpetsandtea » Wed Nov 16, 2011 3:45 pm

whuts4lunch wrote:I feel like I'm producing nothing and am surrounded by children.

lol, I bet you're a riot to have in class. :P

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whuts4lunch
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Re: The Law School Scam

Postby whuts4lunch » Wed Nov 16, 2011 3:47 pm

I feel like parents paying for tuition and living expenses is very common, and includes those who post on this forum, but theres a social pressure to pretend like the costs are completely on the student's shoulders in all/most cases.

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MTal
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Re: The Law School Scam

Postby MTal » Wed Nov 16, 2011 3:48 pm

Veyron wrote:
I feel as if I've already worked my way up in a sense by kicking ass during undergrad and on the LSAT.


No you haven't dude. In the real world, your grades/LSAT count for SHIT. What matters is how useful you can make yourself to your future employer. THAT is how you position yourself for career success, by keeping your employer's needs in mind and how you can grow their business, NOT by accumulating certifications and degrees.

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bjsesq
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Re: The Law School Scam

Postby bjsesq » Wed Nov 16, 2011 3:50 pm

whuts4lunch wrote:I feel like parents paying for tuition and living expenses is very common, and includes those who post on this forum, but theres a social pressure to pretend like the costs are completely on the student's shoulders in all/most cases.


The majority of students at NU pay their own way. There are definitely some who are being helped by mommy and daddy, but it isn't "very common."

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whuts4lunch
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Re: The Law School Scam

Postby whuts4lunch » Wed Nov 16, 2011 3:50 pm

It seems to me like there are a lot of opportunities in law now, just not at large firms. The $$ is in bankruptcy, foreclosure, immigration, plaintiffs work, medical malpractice, and healthcare. I think the anti-ls people act like large firms are the only opportunity in law, and its far from true.

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whuts4lunch
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Re: The Law School Scam

Postby whuts4lunch » Wed Nov 16, 2011 3:51 pm

bjsesq wrote:
whuts4lunch wrote:I feel like parents paying for tuition and living expenses is very common, and includes those who post on this forum, but theres a social pressure to pretend like the costs are completely on the student's shoulders in all/most cases.


The majority of students at NU pay their own way. There are definitely some who are being helped by mommy and daddy, but it isn't "very common."


NU is a different/older crowd than most law schools

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Veyron
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Re: The Law School Scam

Postby Veyron » Wed Nov 16, 2011 3:51 pm

MTal wrote:
Veyron wrote:
I feel as if I've already worked my way up in a sense by kicking ass during undergrad and on the LSAT.


No you haven't dude. In the real world, your grades/LSAT count for SHIT. What matters is how useful you can make yourself to your future employer. THAT is how you position yourself for career success, by keeping your employer's needs in mind and how you can grow their business, NOT by accumulating certifications and degrees.


Well, that's the way you work up in business but law is all credentialing. By those standards, I did work my way up to position myself for success and now you're advising me to throw it all away.
Last edited by Veyron on Wed Nov 16, 2011 3:53 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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bjsesq
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Re: The Law School Scam

Postby bjsesq » Wed Nov 16, 2011 3:51 pm

whuts4lunch wrote:
bjsesq wrote:
whuts4lunch wrote:I feel like parents paying for tuition and living expenses is very common, and includes those who post on this forum, but theres a social pressure to pretend like the costs are completely on the student's shoulders in all/most cases.


The majority of students at NU pay their own way. There are definitely some who are being helped by mommy and daddy, but it isn't "very common."


NU is a different/older crowd than most law schools


That's a fair point.

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whuts4lunch
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Re: The Law School Scam

Postby whuts4lunch » Wed Nov 16, 2011 3:52 pm

crumpetsandtea wrote:
whuts4lunch wrote:I feel like I'm producing nothing and am surrounded by children.

lol, I bet you're a riot to have in class. :P


haha thanks

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glitter178
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Re: The Law School Scam

Postby glitter178 » Wed Nov 16, 2011 3:53 pm

LAWSCHOOLREALITY wrote:
glitter178 wrote:enter douche #2


Self-entitled clown


you're talking about yourself, right? aren't you the one who doesn't want any more JDs for the next 5 years b/c you want the whole big legal market all to yourself? what if someone had said that to you before you got your JD?[/quote]

No I'm talking about you
viewtopic.php?f=2&t=168699&p=4850059#p4850059

My career has been stable and lucrative for a while. This wasn't an issue when I entered law school. This isn't an issue for me now. I have sound legal employment and it isn't going away anytime soon due to where I've gotten in my life. This is an issue for all of you entering law school and the legal market right now. It's not getting better. This has been an issue for the market for some time. Like another poster demonstrated in the warning thread, the current market is not a reflection of the recession but rather the recession accelerated an inevitable change in the legal market. I'm trying to help you in all honesty.

I would not have gone to law school if the market was like this when I was entering. If someone had told me what it really looked like, what a small chance there is for success, and tried to help me avoid ruining the rest of my life, I would've taken a step back, re-evaluated my career choices, and thanked them for talking me out of ruining my life. There is no rush to join this mess. Go do something else unless you're one of the VERY FEW who have positioned yourself to make law school a minimal risk. And even then, you're going to get worked to death due to less employees being able to complete the same level of work. It is not a good time at all to become an associate. I don't think you really know what an 80 hour work week feels like.[/quote]


you make no point by pasting my post from a previous thread, but whatevs. the massive amount of fail from you is the laundry list of assumptions you make about people you don't know. enter: "i don't think you really know what an 80 hour work week feels like." i worked 2 jobs in undergrad. i worked 80 hour weeks at a cabinet factory sanding cabinets on an assembly line during the summer after college b/c went home for the summer and in my small town it was the only place to work. i got through high school by cleaning houses. AND i've held positions, during and post college requiring a comparable level of intellectual stamina. my point is and will continue to be that you're in no position to tell any single person not to go to law school based on faulty assumptions and over-arching conclusions based on those assumptions (i.e., that we don't have the work ethic or won't like the work, that we're going to bad schools at sticker, that we don't have the skills to get a job or the contacts to already have lined up a job.) while the legal market isn't GREAT, the fact that hiring isn't zero is proof positive that there is SOME need for new associates, even if the need is less than it was when you entered into the market. if there was no need, no firm would hire new associates. that SOME won't get what they want isn't a good reason to discourage ALL from pursuing a legal education.

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whuts4lunch
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Re: The Law School Scam

Postby whuts4lunch » Wed Nov 16, 2011 3:55 pm

Veyron wrote:
MTal wrote:
Veyron wrote:
I feel as if I've already worked my way up in a sense by kicking ass during undergrad and on the LSAT.


No you haven't dude. In the real world, your grades/LSAT count for SHIT. What matters is how useful you can make yourself to your future employer. THAT is how you position yourself for career success, by keeping your employer's needs in mind and how you can grow their business, NOT by accumulating certifications and degrees.


Well, that's the way you work up in business but law is all credentialing. Business development doesn't really come into play in the law firm world until the senior associate/partner level. If law firms valued those characteristics in law students, they would select summer associates on the basis of those instead of on the basis of school and class rank.


To me, it seems like that is one of the things that will change with time. The law firm model is outdated and inefficient; now that those inefficiencies are coming to light, businesses are changing their demands of law firms/lawyers, which is resulting in struggles for new law grads. Firms need to work to become more efficient, and a way to do so is to most effectively bring people in who are going to help grow the business by not focusing specifically on certs/degrees like they have in the past. Even so, those with the best certs and degrees will likely be more represented than those who do not have those, just because those with the certs/degrees are likely to generally be more qualified/able.

edited for grammar, clarity
Last edited by whuts4lunch on Wed Nov 16, 2011 3:57 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Aberzombie1892
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Re: The Law School Scam

Postby Aberzombie1892 » Wed Nov 16, 2011 3:56 pm

whuts4lunch wrote:I feel like parents paying for tuition and living expenses is very common, and includes those who post on this forum, but theres a social pressure to pretend like the costs are completely on the student's shoulders in all/most cases.


+100. It's just like the fact that people assume that all students owe $150,000+ in law school debt. $86,000 is the -average- debt load upon graduation across public and private law schools, and so if a student owes $120,000+ for law school, he/she is in the extreme minority.

Also, the average law school student is from the upper middle class. In context, it is reasonable to assume that most students either A) have parents helping foot the bill [either in cash up front or debt repayment) or B) have made enough money in the real world to supplement their interests.

I will concede that people from "lower" income brackets who take out $100,000+ are the ones most at risk when it comes to law school. Sure, they could "win the lottery" and be fine, but if they don't, they are the ones that are truly screwed. That group is the group without a helping hand (if you will).

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whuts4lunch
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Re: The Law School Scam

Postby whuts4lunch » Wed Nov 16, 2011 4:03 pm

Anyone care to comment on bankruptcy, foreclosure, immigration, plaintiffs work, medical malpractice, and healthcare?

It seems to me that the large firm model is in trouble, but that there are plenty of opportunities in the fields I just mentioned. I mean, we have so many foreclosures to deal it seems that there will be plenty of work just in foreclosures for the next 10+ years.

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bigeast03
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Re: The Law School Scam

Postby bigeast03 » Wed Nov 16, 2011 4:08 pm

whuts4lunch wrote:Anyone care to comment on bankruptcy, foreclosure, immigration, plaintiffs work, medical malpractice, and healthcare?

It seems to me that the large firm model is in trouble, but that there are plenty of opportunities in the fields I just mentioned. I mean, we have so many foreclosures to deal it seems that there will be plenty of work just in foreclosures for the next 10+ years.



I'm at a real estate firm right now, albeit small and local, and while the people who are working here aren't making it rain, there is plenty of work to go around. I don't find real estate all too enjoyable, but if it's your thing there definitely is work.

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MTal
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Re: The Law School Scam

Postby MTal » Wed Nov 16, 2011 4:11 pm

whuts4lunch wrote:Anyone care to comment on bankruptcy, foreclosure, immigration, plaintiffs work, medical malpractice, and healthcare?

It seems to me that the large firm model is in trouble, but that there are plenty of opportunities in the fields I just mentioned. I mean, we have so many foreclosures to deal it seems that there will be plenty of work just in foreclosures for the next 10+ years.


From what I know, I believe the above fields will continue to grow or be steady, with the exceptions of plaintiffs work and MedMal. A lot of states are really cracking down on giant jury awards through tort r(de)eform.

ihhwap1
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.

Postby ihhwap1 » Wed Nov 16, 2011 4:12 pm

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Last edited by ihhwap1 on Wed Nov 16, 2011 5:37 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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whuts4lunch
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Re: The Law School Scam

Postby whuts4lunch » Wed Nov 16, 2011 4:16 pm

MTal wrote:
whuts4lunch wrote:Anyone care to comment on bankruptcy, foreclosure, immigration, plaintiffs work, medical malpractice, and healthcare?

It seems to me that the large firm model is in trouble, but that there are plenty of opportunities in the fields I just mentioned. I mean, we have so many foreclosures to deal it seems that there will be plenty of work just in foreclosures for the next 10+ years.


From what I know, I believe the above fields will continue to grow or be steady, with the exceptions of plaintiffs work and MedMal. A lot of states are really cracking down on giant jury awards through tort r(de)eform.


So for those interested in bankruptcy, foreclosure, immigration, and healthcare, do you think going to law school (on the cheap) is necessarily a bad idea?

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D-hops
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Re: The Law School Scam

Postby D-hops » Wed Nov 16, 2011 4:18 pm

Damn, lower T13 at sticker, guess I gotta drop out.
Last edited by D-hops on Wed Nov 16, 2011 4:18 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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whuts4lunch
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Re: The Law School Scam

Postby whuts4lunch » Wed Nov 16, 2011 4:18 pm

bigeast03 wrote:
whuts4lunch wrote:Anyone care to comment on bankruptcy, foreclosure, immigration, plaintiffs work, medical malpractice, and healthcare?

It seems to me that the large firm model is in trouble, but that there are plenty of opportunities in the fields I just mentioned. I mean, we have so many foreclosures to deal it seems that there will be plenty of work just in foreclosures for the next 10+ years.



I'm at a real estate firm right now, albeit small and local, and while the people who are working here aren't making it rain, there is plenty of work to go around. I don't find real estate all too enjoyable, but if it's your thing there definitely is work.


Do you think there is potential for them to start making it rain at some point? Seems to me that if you keep a business stocked with a call center reaching out to potential clients you could make a killing on volume.

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Veyron
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Re: The Law School Scam

Postby Veyron » Wed Nov 16, 2011 4:20 pm

whuts4lunch wrote:
Veyron wrote:
MTal wrote:
Veyron wrote:
I feel as if I've already worked my way up in a sense by kicking ass during undergrad and on the LSAT.


No you haven't dude. In the real world, your grades/LSAT count for SHIT. What matters is how useful you can make yourself to your future employer. THAT is how you position yourself for career success, by keeping your employer's needs in mind and how you can grow their business, NOT by accumulating certifications and degrees.


Well, that's the way you work up in business but law is all credentialing. Business development doesn't really come into play in the law firm world until the senior associate/partner level. If law firms valued those characteristics in law students, they would select summer associates on the basis of those instead of on the basis of school and class rank.


To me, it seems like that is one of the things that will change with time. The law firm model is outdated and inefficient; now that those inefficiencies are coming to light, businesses are changing their demands of law firms/lawyers, which is resulting in struggles for new law grads. Firms need to work to become more efficient, and a way to do so is to most effectively bring people in who are going to help grow the business by not focusing specifically on certs/degrees like they have in the past. Even so, those with the best certs and degrees will likely be more represented than those who do not have those, just because those with the certs/degrees are likely to generally be more qualified/able.

edited for grammar, clarity


Right, but as long as that IS the model, I think I'm decently situated to capitalize on it, which is why I'm skeptical of this "drop out" advice.

c3pO4
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Re: The Law School Scam

Postby c3pO4 » Wed Nov 16, 2011 4:22 pm

Veyron wrote:
Right, but as long as that IS the model, I think I'm decently situated to capitalize on it, which is why I'm skeptical of this "drop out" advice.


You shouldn't drop out, but you are dead wrong that you've done anything to "work up" the ladder in a legal career. Nothing that happens in law school counts, except for getting a law job. It's just a race to get through a very small gateway (one that not everybody at even your T7 will get through). Drop the attitude before OCI, interviewers can smell it. Get ready to work hard and start from the bottom once you graduate.

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whuts4lunch
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Re: The Law School Scam

Postby whuts4lunch » Wed Nov 16, 2011 4:24 pm

Veyron wrote:Right, but as long as that IS the model, I think I'm decently situated to capitalize on it, which is why I'm skeptical of this "drop out" advice.


Yea I agree with you. I think the takeaway from what I am saying is that it is also important to find ways to bring something else to the table as well, once you actually are there, are representing clients, are engaging in business/legal work. Just make sure you can contribute more than "I went to XYZ school, had XYZ lsats, XYZ grades".

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Veyron
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Re: The Law School Scam

Postby Veyron » Wed Nov 16, 2011 4:25 pm

c3pO4 wrote:
Veyron wrote:
Right, but as long as that IS the model, I think I'm decently situated to capitalize on it, which is why I'm skeptical of this "drop out" advice.


You shouldn't drop out, but you are dead wrong that you've done anything to "work up" the ladder in a legal career. Nothing that happens in law school counts, except for getting a law job. It's just a race to get through a very small gateway (one that not everybody at even your T7 will get through). Drop the attitude before OCI, interviewers can smell it. Get ready to work hard and start from the bottom once you graduate.


Isn't getting a good job at least half the battle though?

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MTal
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Re: The Law School Scam

Postby MTal » Wed Nov 16, 2011 4:27 pm

whuts4lunch wrote: So for those interested in bankruptcy, foreclosure, immigration, and healthcare, do you think going to law school (on the cheap) is necessarily a bad idea?


It's better than going and hoping for biglaw, but you're still facing an uphill battle. Since law school doesn't teach you jack about the actual PRACTICE of law, you will need a mentor for at least the first year you're out to teach you everything. A lot of the above work is handled by solos, not firms, so you will have to work for one, be friends with one, work out some type of office sharing arrangement etc, but you will need to know SOMEONE who can show you the ropes so you don't commit malpractice your first year. If you come out of law school with 100k in debt (currently that's about the average) you will face a severe uphill battle trying to start your own practice. If you have little debt, and can afford to set up your own office, then you are halfway there. Then the other 40 % is hustling trying to find (PAYING) clients. (finding clients is easy, finding those who can pay, not so much). So if practicing in the above areas is your goal, then that's the path I recommend going.

Edit: Also, criminal work will always be steady as well.
Last edited by MTal on Wed Nov 16, 2011 4:31 pm, edited 1 time in total.

HeavenWood
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Re: The Law School Scam

Postby HeavenWood » Wed Nov 16, 2011 4:29 pm

I'm a 1L, also at Penn, and I'm starting to worry because my LSAT is on the lower side and I don't feel as smart or accomplished as my peers. I fear I won't even make median. MTal: If I drop out now, I'm pretty sure I can get my tuition back. Should I take a chance or GTFO while I still can?




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