The Law School Scam

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ToTransferOrNot
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Re: The Law School Scam

Postby ToTransferOrNot » Wed Nov 16, 2011 5:37 pm

whuts4lunch wrote:
ToTransferOrNot wrote:To lunch's last post: lol, ok. Good luck with that. That's the type of ridiculous presumption that gets people burned (for every one successful person in the areas you are looking at, there are piles of people barely managing to get by). But again, you have the benefit of not staring down significant debt if your gamble turns out to be wrong.


If I'm wrong, I go back to earning what I was making before, and I got a great education in the mean time. As much as people hate to admit it, a lot is offered and taught in law school that is very valuable for business and not just practicing law.


I focused all three years on the most "practical" classes/clinics/etc. I could find. None of it was at all helpful for business in general. This is another assumption people make that is flat-out wrong.

And if you're wrong, you had a lot of lost opportunity cost in the years you "took off" (apparently not just the three of law school, but also the 3-5 in private practice). You have luxuries there others do not.

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whuts4lunch
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Re: The Law School Scam

Postby whuts4lunch » Wed Nov 16, 2011 5:37 pm

MTal wrote:
whuts4lunch wrote:
Gail wrote:[Enjoy Vector Marketing.


Lol! I worked for them for 2 weeks about 9 years ago. They still exist???


Haha, cutco knives FTW.


Theres no limit to what you can make!!! haha

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MTal
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Re: The Law School Scam

Postby MTal » Wed Nov 16, 2011 5:42 pm

whuts4lunch wrote:
MTal wrote:
whuts4lunch wrote:
Gail wrote:[Enjoy Vector Marketing.


Lol! I worked for them for 2 weeks about 9 years ago. They still exist???


Haha, cutco knives FTW.


Theres no limit to what you can make!!! haha


Pay for performance!! The harder you work, the more you earn!!

Incidentally, this is a good illustration why sales is good for making a quick buck, but usually not a viable long term career option. Case in point, 2 quarters ago I was in the to 7 % in my department for # of accounts brought in, the next quarter I was barely in the top 50. In sales, you always have to be "on", which is difficult for most people. The good thing is, once you've proven yourself to your company, you can transition into a non-sales job, which is usually going to be less lucrative, but still decent paying and stable.

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Gail
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Re: The Law School Scam

Postby Gail » Wed Nov 16, 2011 5:44 pm

ToTransferOrNot wrote:Sigh. Take issue with MTal all you want, but setting up these kind of silly strawmen ("oh so people who don't get biglaw never pay their loans huh????") makes you look ridiculous.

If you have $160k in debt and you get a job making $40k a year, that's going to be a fairly meager life, IBR or not. Does that outcome make sense vs. what you could have done sans law school? People will have different answers to that question.


What do you mean by meager?

Small apartment, crappy car, work, and minimal entertainment? You were going to be living that life had you not done law school anyways. TLS needs perspective.

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Veyron
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Re: The Law School Scam

Postby Veyron » Wed Nov 16, 2011 5:45 pm

Pay for performance!! The harder you work, the more you earn!!

Incidentally, this is a good illustration why sales is good for making a quick buck, but usually not a viable long term career option. Case in point, 2 quarters ago I was in the to 7 % in my department for # of accounts brought in, the next quarter I was barely in the top 50. In sales, you always have to be "on", which is difficult for most people. The good thing is, once you've proven yourself to your company, you can transition into a non-sales job, which is usually going to be less lucrative, but still decent paying and stable.


So this aversion to sales is why you advise against doing catastrophic injury litigation?
Last edited by Veyron on Wed Nov 16, 2011 5:46 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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Larry David
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Re: The Law School Scam

Postby Larry David » Wed Nov 16, 2011 5:46 pm

my sales experience is a little bit different has anyone heard of IPOP?

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Gail
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Re: The Law School Scam

Postby Gail » Wed Nov 16, 2011 5:48 pm

whuts4lunch wrote:
Gail wrote:[Enjoy Vector Marketing.


Lol! I worked for them for 2 weeks about 9 years ago. They still exist???



Yup. Although CollegePro have kind of taken their place as the premier scambusiness. People that decry law school seem to think that the real world is so much more inviting. I'm in UG right now, let me tell you, it isn't any better. If I hadn't gone to college in the first place, let me tell you, it wouldn't have been any better.

We can all cry about how law school is a lot of money, employment is drying up, and we're likely to be fucked afterwards. But quite frankly, we were fucked to begin with. Its the iGeneration, baby. Get used to living it, because no one is moving up the social ladder, but a whole lot can look forward to moving down.


This, debt or no debt, is largely beyond your control.

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thexfactor
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Re: The Law School Scam

Postby thexfactor » Wed Nov 16, 2011 5:50 pm

Image

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Larry David
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Re: The Law School Scam

Postby Larry David » Wed Nov 16, 2011 5:51 pm

thexfactor wrote:Image

I want a rail

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whuts4lunch
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Re: The Law School Scam

Postby whuts4lunch » Wed Nov 16, 2011 5:51 pm

I don't really think we're all fucked debt or no debt. No debt certainly isn't fucked. We are in a bad recession, but its not going to last forever.

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Larry David
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Re: The Law School Scam

Postby Larry David » Wed Nov 16, 2011 5:53 pm

whuts4lunch wrote:I don't really think we're all fucked debt or no debt. No debt certainly isn't fucked. We are in a bad recession, but its not going to last forever.

Don't say that on a law school website you realize these are some of the most pessimistic people in the world.

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Veyron
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Re: The Law School Scam

Postby Veyron » Wed Nov 16, 2011 5:54 pm

whuts4lunch wrote:I don't really think we're all fucked debt or no debt. No debt certainly isn't fucked. We are in a bad recession, but its not going to last forever.


No, Emory is fucked.

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Larry David
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Re: The Law School Scam

Postby Larry David » Wed Nov 16, 2011 5:56 pm

Veyron wrote:
whuts4lunch wrote:I don't really think we're all fucked debt or no debt. No debt certainly isn't fucked. We are in a bad recession, but its not going to last forever.


No, Emory is fucked.

Do you think the atlanta market is bad good or ugly?

ToTransferOrNot
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Re: The Law School Scam

Postby ToTransferOrNot » Wed Nov 16, 2011 5:56 pm

Sigh. Legal hiring doesn't work in a way that when we come out of the recession, all the people (or even a sizeable group) who missed the boat will land jobs. And there's a significant difference between being debt-free and broke and being massively indebted + broke. To think otherwise is ridiculous.

But whatever. I actually have my license and have first-hand knowledge of the market, but am clearly just being overly pessimistic. Like I said before, best of luck to you spring chickens in 2014/2015/etc.

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thexfactor
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Re: The Law School Scam

Postby thexfactor » Wed Nov 16, 2011 5:57 pm

whuts4lunch wrote:I don't really think we're all fucked debt or no debt. No debt certainly isn't fucked. We are in a bad recession, but its not going to last forever.


lol.....
Of course we aren't all fucked. People here often forget that a full ride to a t4/t3 is "free", however there is an opportunity cost of attending law school too. Being 3 years older with no job isn't necessarly better than not attending law school and doing something else.

The other problem is that there is such an oversupply of lawyers that even if the economy recovers, firms will pass people who graduated a couple years ago to get the new graduates.

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MTal
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Re: The Law School Scam

Postby MTal » Wed Nov 16, 2011 5:58 pm

Gail wrote: This, debt or no debt, is largely beyond your control.


Couldn't disagree more. The amount of debt you take on is entirely your control. Where attitudes have to change is that it's perfectly ok to start at the bottom, sometimes the VERY bottom, I'll give an example. My boss after graduating college started working as an assistant manager at major grocery chain, eventually he worked his way up to store manager, then as a result of a personal dispute with his boss, got fired. He started at the bottom once again working for a discount brokerage in the new accounts department, and eventually worked his way up to investor services manager, and has been making in the low 6 figures (very low COL area to boot) since he's been 35, currently he's about 40. Point is, experience is what counts, therefore, don't be afraid to start at the bottom and then working your way up by making yourself indispensable.

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Larry David
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Re: The Law School Scam

Postby Larry David » Wed Nov 16, 2011 5:58 pm

ToTransferOrNot wrote:Sigh. Legal hiring doesn't work in a way that when we come out of the recession, all the people (or even a sizeable group) who missed the boat will land jobs. And there's a significant difference between being debt-free and broke and being massively indebted + broke. To think otherwise is ridiculous.

But whatever. I actually have my license and have first-hand knowledge of the market, but am clearly just being overly pessimistic. Like I said before, best of luck to you spring chickens in 2014/2015/etc.


Sigh, eat my nana. What market are you in btw?

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Veyron
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Re: The Law School Scam

Postby Veyron » Wed Nov 16, 2011 5:58 pm

Larry David wrote:
Veyron wrote:
whuts4lunch wrote:I don't really think we're all fucked debt or no debt. No debt certainly isn't fucked. We are in a bad recession, but its not going to last forever.


No, Emory is fucked.

Do you think the atlanta market is bad good or ugly?


Atlanta isn't my market so I'm not qualified to comment but Emory is doing bad.

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kwais
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Re: The Law School Scam

Postby kwais » Wed Nov 16, 2011 6:02 pm

I swear I can't tell if Veyron and Heavenwood are trolling MTal. Bizarre thread we have here.

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Larry David
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Re: The Law School Scam

Postby Larry David » Wed Nov 16, 2011 6:04 pm

kwais wrote:I swear I can't tell if Veyron and Heavenwood are trolling MTal. Bizarre thread we have here.

Whats a troll?

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Gail
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Re: The Law School Scam

Postby Gail » Wed Nov 16, 2011 6:05 pm

whuts4lunch wrote:I don't really think we're all fucked debt or no debt. No debt certainly isn't fucked. We are in a bad recession, but its not going to last forever.


Not forever. But for the immediate future (until probably 2020), at which point even the lowliest of us lawyers, or at least those still practicing/not dead, will be experienced enough to be making more than 45k. If I went to law school next year, I'd get out at 2015, probably take a crappy job, and then have 5 years, at which point maybe I could spin it into something else making around 80k.


Then again, who knows. My point is this - even in the best times, those doing honest work weren't doing well. The idea that lawl school is a ticket to models and bottles is a myth. The idea that you're necessarily better off and working at Target is equally so. For every great god store manager, there are 15 "assistant managers" biting at each other to be considered for a similar promotion. Each one is still only earning 35k, and each one hates their lives just as much as any lawyer.


There's an oversupply of lawyers? Well. Yeah. But more importantly, there's an oversupply of workers. Like I said: All fucked.

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Larry David
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Re: The Law School Scam

Postby Larry David » Wed Nov 16, 2011 6:08 pm

Gail wrote:
whuts4lunch wrote:I don't really think we're all fucked debt or no debt. No debt certainly isn't fucked. We are in a bad recession, but its not going to last forever.


Not forever. But for the immediate future (until probably 2020), at which point even the lowliest of us lawyers, or at least those still practicing/not dead, will be experienced enough to be making more than 45k. If I went to law school next year, I'd get out at 2015, probably take a crappy job, and then have 5 years, at which point maybe I could spin it into something else making around 80k.


Then again, who knows. My point is this - even in the best times, those doing honest work weren't doing well. The idea that lawl school is a ticket to models and bottles is a myth. The idea that you're necessarily better off and working at Target is equally so. For every great god store manager, there are 15 "assistant managers" biting at each other to be considered for a similar promotion. Each one is still only earning 35k, and each one hates their lives just as much as any lawyer.


There's an oversupply of lawyers? Well. Yeah. But more importantly, there's an oversupply of workers. Like I said: All fucked.


I think we know who will be on top and who won't the studious types who dot I's and cross there T's will never make it in litigation they will always be someones bitch

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Gail
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Re: The Law School Scam

Postby Gail » Wed Nov 16, 2011 6:08 pm

ToTransferOrNot wrote:Sigh. Legal hiring doesn't work in a way that when we come out of the recession, all the people (or even a sizeable group) who missed the boat will land jobs. And there's a significant difference between being debt-free and broke and being massively indebted + broke. To think otherwise is ridiculous.

But whatever. I actually have my license and have first-hand knowledge of the market, but am clearly just being overly pessimistic. Like I said before, best of luck to you spring chickens in 2014/2015/etc.



The difference is marginal. In either case you're living the type of meager existence you referenced. It is just that in one life you might have tried doing something you truly wanted to do (or at least took a chance at something you thought that you might have loved).

c3pO4
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Re: The Law School Scam

Postby c3pO4 » Wed Nov 16, 2011 6:09 pm

Larry David wrote:
kwais wrote:I swear I can't tell if Veyron and Heavenwood are trolling MTal. Bizarre thread we have here.

Whats a troll?


lol. you. nice use of the "optimism" schtick, troll.

all you 1Ls are in for such a rude awakening. I remember when I was bright eyed and optimistic. Either you will strike out and realize how screwed you are or you will get a job and realize that 7 out of 10 of your friends are drowning in life altering debt. in 3 years either you or the people around you will be positioned to live out your dreams or your worst, most unimaginable nightmare.

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whuts4lunch
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Re: The Law School Scam

Postby whuts4lunch » Wed Nov 16, 2011 6:10 pm

ToTransferOrNot wrote:I focused all three years on the most "practical" classes/clinics/etc. I could find. None of it was at all helpful for business in general. This is another assumption people make that is flat-out wrong.


Many practicing and formerly practicing attorneys disagree with you. I've already learned valuable things for business just this semester.




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