The Law School Scam

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D-hops
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Re: The Law School Scam

Postby D-hops » Wed Nov 16, 2011 5:10 pm

whuts4lunch wrote:
ToTransferOrNot wrote:Do not understand this logic. Time to evaluate you? They do a 20-30 minute screening interview of you and several dozen other people. Grades are a lot more indicative than that setting in most cases.

Once you make it past the screener to a callback, the game obviously changes (though grades still matter - just not as much).


There is plenty to evaluate. Resume, foreign language ability, sales ability, personality, business savvy, recommendations from previous employers, maybe a writing sample.

You can test the interviewee. You ask them questions, you see how they would respond to certain situations, you attempt to gain an insight into how they think and what they are capable of. A good interviewer can learn a ton about a person in 20-30 minutes. A good interviewee can make sure that the interviewer is familiar with what the interviewee is capable of, just from having had that conversation.


And a good interviewee can game those impressions in 20-30 minutes despite not understanding basic legal concepts.

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MTal
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Re: The Law School Scam

Postby MTal » Wed Nov 16, 2011 5:10 pm

Veyron wrote:
MTal wrote:
HeavenWood wrote:
Larry David wrote:So what do TLS people do when they strike out of OCI? Slit wrist?

What else can we do? I thought I cheated the system by reverse-splitting and still sneaking into a lower T14. Now I wish I had at least tried retaking and doing better. I wonder if it would have been easier to end up top 10% at Temple or Villanova. Competition isn't quite as fierce there, and my LSAT would be above their 75th %iles. Obviously I'm jumping the gun here... it's just such a stressful time. :|


All you can do now is buckle down, focus, give it your best, and let the chips fall where they may. Then once the grades come in, make the decision. That is what I did.


What about my case where I landed a job after OCI was over at a small firm that does car accident litigation and such?


Was your OCI 1L or 2L? Also, IMO, personal injury is one of the most morally dubious practice areas...I would feel better about defending rapists/child molesters in court than litigating of the cases PI lawyers bring in. If you get that lottery ticket plaintiff, there can be a big payoff, but you won't likely see that type of case until you go through 1000 Shaniquas trying to shake down Wal-Mart by slipping on laundry detergent.

HeavenWood
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Re: The Law School Scam

Postby HeavenWood » Wed Nov 16, 2011 5:11 pm

MTal wrote:
HeavenWood wrote:It's tough to focus when one is so worried, but I'll try my best. I have a contracts practice exam Friday, so I'm gonna try and get my outline caught up. Maybe if I do well on that, I'll feel better/subsequently do better come exam time.


Knowing how to work under pressure is an important skill to have, for both lawyers and students; it's also one that can be improved upon. Things that can help with this are exercise, socializing/partying on weekends, and getting laid.

See, that's the thing, I've been so great at working under pressure in the past. This law school stuff... I just don't know. As for getting laid, some asshole said I looked like an unemployed Detroit auto worker today... so any possibility of that happening is gonna have to wait until post-finals.

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whuts4lunch
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Re: The Law School Scam

Postby whuts4lunch » Wed Nov 16, 2011 5:12 pm

Larry David wrote:
D-hops wrote:
Larry David wrote:
So only attorneys who got jobs straight from OCI pay off their loans? Also the only successful attorneys out there are hired only through OCI coming out of Law School?


While it is obviously overstated, it is a pretty good rule of thumb.


You people are retarded if you believe this. This generation is such a failure has anyone ever heard of perseverance? You do realize that some things in life are not handed to you. Also just because you make shit for a few years and struggle does not mean your entire career you will be making what you made coming out of any school not just law school.

+1

"you people are retarded if you believe this"

LOL

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whuts4lunch
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Re: The Law School Scam

Postby whuts4lunch » Wed Nov 16, 2011 5:13 pm

D-hops wrote:
whuts4lunch wrote:
ToTransferOrNot wrote:Do not understand this logic. Time to evaluate you? They do a 20-30 minute screening interview of you and several dozen other people. Grades are a lot more indicative than that setting in most cases.

Once you make it past the screener to a callback, the game obviously changes (though grades still matter - just not as much).


There is plenty to evaluate. Resume, foreign language ability, sales ability, personality, business savvy, recommendations from previous employers, maybe a writing sample.

You can test the interviewee. You ask them questions, you see how they would respond to certain situations, you attempt to gain an insight into how they think and what they are capable of. A good interviewer can learn a ton about a person in 20-30 minutes. A good interviewee can make sure that the interviewer is familiar with what the interviewee is capable of, just from having had that conversation.


And a good interviewee can game those impressions in 20-30 minutes despite not understanding basic legal concepts.


You think people outside of maybe the bottom 10-20% of the class in a Tier 1 school don't understand basic legal concepts?

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MTal
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Re: The Law School Scam

Postby MTal » Wed Nov 16, 2011 5:15 pm

HeavenWood wrote:
MTal wrote:
HeavenWood wrote:It's tough to focus when one is so worried, but I'll try my best. I have a contracts practice exam Friday, so I'm gonna try and get my outline caught up. Maybe if I do well on that, I'll feel better/subsequently do better come exam time.


Knowing how to work under pressure is an important skill to have, for both lawyers and students; it's also one that can be improved upon. Things that can help with this are exercise, socializing/partying on weekends, and getting laid.

See, that's the thing, I've been so great at working under pressure in the past. This law school stuff... I just don't know. As for getting laid, some asshole said I looked like an unemployed Detroit auto worker today... so any possibility of that happening is gonna have to wait until post-finals.


Lift some weights dude, hit it hard especially on the weekends. Do crossfit workouts http://www.crossfit.com and you will feel like a million $$. You will truly feel good about yourself, regardless of the other stresses in your life if you are in shape.

ToTransferOrNot
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Re: The Law School Scam

Postby ToTransferOrNot » Wed Nov 16, 2011 5:16 pm

Sigh. Good luck to you know-it-all spring chickens. I know a lot of very talented, entirely unemployed people who actually did the law school thing (and no, I am not one of them, so you can hold the 'bitter!!!' comments). But yeah, if you just work really hard you'll make it some day.

The dervish that the scamblogger-type folks spout is ridiculous, but so is the thought that everything will just "work out" if you happen to miss the OCI boat.
Last edited by ToTransferOrNot on Wed Nov 16, 2011 5:17 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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whuts4lunch
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Re: The Law School Scam

Postby whuts4lunch » Wed Nov 16, 2011 5:16 pm

I have barely worked out all semester, I should probably change that. I'm burning out big time right now.

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D-hops
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Re: The Law School Scam

Postby D-hops » Wed Nov 16, 2011 5:17 pm

whuts4lunch wrote:
D-hops wrote:
whuts4lunch wrote:
ToTransferOrNot wrote:Do not understand this logic. Time to evaluate you? They do a 20-30 minute screening interview of you and several dozen other people. Grades are a lot more indicative than that setting in most cases.

Once you make it past the screener to a callback, the game obviously changes (though grades still matter - just not as much).


There is plenty to evaluate. Resume, foreign language ability, sales ability, personality, business savvy, recommendations from previous employers, maybe a writing sample.

You can test the interviewee. You ask them questions, you see how they would respond to certain situations, you attempt to gain an insight into how they think and what they are capable of. A good interviewer can learn a ton about a person in 20-30 minutes. A good interviewee can make sure that the interviewer is familiar with what the interviewee is capable of, just from having had that conversation.


And a good interviewee can game those impressions in 20-30 minutes despite not understanding basic legal concepts.


You think people outside of maybe the bottom 10-20% of the class in a Tier 1 school don't understand basic legal concepts?


I am saying, how the fuck can you know that. Lawyers do not do interviews like ibanks or consulting jobs, they use law school grades as a proxy for intelligence and understanding of legal issues.

HeavenWood
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Re: The Law School Scam

Postby HeavenWood » Wed Nov 16, 2011 5:17 pm

MTal wrote:
HeavenWood wrote:
MTal wrote:
HeavenWood wrote:It's tough to focus when one is so worried, but I'll try my best. I have a contracts practice exam Friday, so I'm gonna try and get my outline caught up. Maybe if I do well on that, I'll feel better/subsequently do better come exam time.


Knowing how to work under pressure is an important skill to have, for both lawyers and students; it's also one that can be improved upon. Things that can help with this are exercise, socializing/partying on weekends, and getting laid.

See, that's the thing, I've been so great at working under pressure in the past. This law school stuff... I just don't know. As for getting laid, some asshole said I looked like an unemployed Detroit auto worker today... so any possibility of that happening is gonna have to wait until post-finals.


Lift some weights dude, hit it hard especially on the weekends. Do crossfit workouts http://www.crossfit.com and you will feel like a million $$. You will truly feel good about yourself, regardless of the other stresses in your life if you are in shape.

Maybe after the semester's over. For now, when I have a free moment, I just want to sleep.

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D-hops
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Re: The Law School Scam

Postby D-hops » Wed Nov 16, 2011 5:17 pm

ToTransferOrNot wrote:Sigh. Good luck to you know-it-all spring chickens. I know a lot of very talented, entirely unemployed people who actually did the law school thing (and no, I am not one of them, so you can hold the 'bitter!!!' comments). But yeah, if you just work really hard you'll make it some day.

The dervish that the scamblogger-type folks spout is ridiculous, but so is the thought that everything will just "work out" if you happen to miss the OCI boat.


+1000

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Larry David
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Re: The Law School Scam

Postby Larry David » Wed Nov 16, 2011 5:20 pm

ToTransferOrNot wrote:Sigh. Good luck to you know-it-all spring chickens. I know a lot of very talented, entirely unemployed people who actually did the law school thing (and no, I am not one of them, so you can hold the 'bitter!!!' comments). But yeah, if you just work really hard you'll make it some day.

The dervish that the scamblogger-type folks spout is ridiculous, but so is the thought that everything will just "work out" if you happen to miss the OCI boat.


Hell no it will not just "work out".... Life does not just "work out".... Sometimes you fail, sometimes you win but you have to keep moving forward. Most things in life worth doing come with heavy risk. You could fail miserably but you could also do nothing with your life.

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JusticeHarlan
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Re: The Law School Scam

Postby JusticeHarlan » Wed Nov 16, 2011 5:21 pm

MTal wrote:Law school is a scam which will leave you jobless and 6 figures in debt. The debt will destroy your ability to make life decisions most of us take for granted, like getting married, having children, and owning your own home. The degree itself will NOT help you in any other field outside of law. If you are at at a T6 school or attending some other school at a full ride, then stay. If not, DROP OUT NOW.

Image

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Veyron
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Re: The Law School Scam

Postby Veyron » Wed Nov 16, 2011 5:21 pm

Was your OCI 1L or 2L? Also, IMO, personal injury is one of the most morally dubious practice areas...I would feel better about defending rapists/child molesters in court than litigating of the cases PI lawyers bring in. If you get that lottery ticket plaintiff, there can be a big payoff, but you won't likely see that type of case until you go through 1000 Shaniquas trying to shake down Wal-Mart by slipping on laundry detergent.


2L. If it makes a difference, they do catastrophic personal injury.

ToTransferOrNot
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Re: The Law School Scam

Postby ToTransferOrNot » Wed Nov 16, 2011 5:23 pm

Larry David wrote:
ToTransferOrNot wrote:Sigh. Good luck to you know-it-all spring chickens. I know a lot of very talented, entirely unemployed people who actually did the law school thing (and no, I am not one of them, so you can hold the 'bitter!!!' comments). But yeah, if you just work really hard you'll make it some day.

The dervish that the scamblogger-type folks spout is ridiculous, but so is the thought that everything will just "work out" if you happen to miss the OCI boat.


Hell no it will not just "work out".... Life does not just "work out".... Sometimes you fail, sometimes you win but you have to keep moving forward. Most things in life worth doing come with heavy risk. You could fail miserably but you could also do nothing with your life.


Most of the time, though, the heavy risk is dischargeable in bankruptcy - that's the fundamental difference between higher education and other risk-taking endeavors. There's not much in the way of recovery if you end up jobless after taking on $160k in non-dischargeable debt - and I know many, MANY people in that situation.

ToTransferOrNot
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Re: The Law School Scam

Postby ToTransferOrNot » Wed Nov 16, 2011 5:23 pm

JusticeHarlan wrote:
MTal wrote:Law school is a scam which will leave you jobless and 6 figures in debt. The debt will destroy your ability to make life decisions most of us take for granted, like getting married, having children, and owning your own home. The degree itself will NOT help you in any other field outside of law. If you are at at a T6 school or attending some other school at a full ride, then stay. If not, DROP OUT NOW.

Image


You win the internets for referencing Chrono Trigger.

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whuts4lunch
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Re: The Law School Scam

Postby whuts4lunch » Wed Nov 16, 2011 5:24 pm

ToTransferOrNot wrote:Sigh. Good luck to you know-it-all spring chickens. I know a lot of very talented, entirely unemployed people who actually did the law school thing (and no, I am not one of them, so you can hold the 'bitter!!!' comments). But yeah, if you just work really hard you'll make it some day.

The dervish that the scamblogger-type folks spout is ridiculous, but so is the thought that everything will just "work out" if you happen to miss the OCI boat.


It likely will if you have little debt and are willing to put the work in. And I'm saying that as a 1L who was able to make good money out of college with shit grades from a little, not well-known school. Just be open to doing work that you didn't anticipate. Maybe you didn't think you would do med mal after law school but you have a ton of friends in med school who need help, you are able to leverage those contacts for a job with a med mal firm, and you get into that business. Maybe you didn't think you would do foreclosure law, but you meet someone who works at a foreclosure defense firm and they try you out for a month or two to see if you are worth keeping around. All sorts of different things can happen; just keep your eyes open and don't be afraid to take an opportunity that isn't what you necessarily expected.

ToTransferOrNot
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Re: The Law School Scam

Postby ToTransferOrNot » Wed Nov 16, 2011 5:25 pm

whuts4lunch wrote:
ToTransferOrNot wrote:Sigh. Good luck to you know-it-all spring chickens. I know a lot of very talented, entirely unemployed people who actually did the law school thing (and no, I am not one of them, so you can hold the 'bitter!!!' comments). But yeah, if you just work really hard you'll make it some day.

The dervish that the scamblogger-type folks spout is ridiculous, but so is the thought that everything will just "work out" if you happen to miss the OCI boat.


It likely will if you have little debt and are willing to put the work in. And I'm saying that as a 1L who was able to make good money out of college with shit grades from a little, not well-known school. Just be open to doing work that you didn't anticipate. Maybe you didn't think you would do med mal after law school but you have a ton of friends in med school who need help, you are able to leverage those contacts for a job with a med mal firm, and you get into that business. Maybe you didn't think you would do foreclosure law, but you meet someone who works at a foreclosure defense firm and they try you out for a month or two to see if you are worth keeping around. All sorts of different things can happen; just keep your eyes open and don't be afraid to take an opportunity that isn't what you necessarily expected.


You may not have noticed, but the vast majority of discussion about the risks of law school presume that you do not have a genetics scholarship. Obviously, doing things on scholarship greatly changes the risk-reward calculus, though you still have opportunity cost to contend with.

Of course, for people on the genetics scholarship, even the opportunity cost consideration is different because they have an inheritance to look forward to.

For others, giving up a higher-paying job to do lesser-paying work that they would rather do (or that they think they would rather do - I sincerely doubt that you really know what being a lawyer is all about if you basically went under threat of being 'cut off') may just be something they are willing to do.

That's fine. But that isn't where the vast majority of people who go to law school are coming from. Most people are thinking "If I go to law school, I will make a better living for myself than I would have doing X." It's a flat risk-reward calculus. Many people are completely wrong about that calculus.
Last edited by ToTransferOrNot on Wed Nov 16, 2011 5:29 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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whuts4lunch
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Re: The Law School Scam

Postby whuts4lunch » Wed Nov 16, 2011 5:26 pm

ToTransferOrNot wrote:Most of the time, though, the heavy risk is dischargeable in bankruptcy - that's the fundamental difference between higher education and other risk-taking endeavors. There's not much in the way of recovery if you end up jobless after taking on $160k in non-dischargeable debt - and I know many, MANY people in that situation.


Everyone on this site has an opportunity to go to law school without taking $160k of debt (including those without genetic scholarships). So I think its pretty simple what to do: don't go somewhere where you will have to take out that kind of debt load.

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whuts4lunch
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Re: The Law School Scam

Postby whuts4lunch » Wed Nov 16, 2011 5:31 pm

ToTransferOrNot wrote:
whuts4lunch wrote:
ToTransferOrNot wrote:Sigh. Good luck to you know-it-all spring chickens. I know a lot of very talented, entirely unemployed people who actually did the law school thing (and no, I am not one of them, so you can hold the 'bitter!!!' comments). But yeah, if you just work really hard you'll make it some day.

The dervish that the scamblogger-type folks spout is ridiculous, but so is the thought that everything will just "work out" if you happen to miss the OCI boat.


It likely will if you have little debt and are willing to put the work in. And I'm saying that as a 1L who was able to make good money out of college with shit grades from a little, not well-known school. Just be open to doing work that you didn't anticipate. Maybe you didn't think you would do med mal after law school but you have a ton of friends in med school who need help, you are able to leverage those contacts for a job with a med mal firm, and you get into that business. Maybe you didn't think you would do foreclosure law, but you meet someone who works at a foreclosure defense firm and they try you out for a month or two to see if you are worth keeping around. All sorts of different things can happen; just keep your eyes open and don't be afraid to take an opportunity that isn't what you necessarily expected.


You may not have noticed, but the vast majority of discussion about the risks of law school presume that you do not have a genetics scholarship. Obviously, doing things on scholarship greatly changes the risk-reward calculus, though you still have opportunity cost to contend with.

Of course, for people on the genetics scholarship, even the opportunity cost consideration is different because they have an inheritance to look forward to.

For others, giving up a higher-paying job to do lesser-paying work that they would rather do (or that they think they would rather do - I sincerely doubt that you really know what being a lawyer is all about if you basically went under threat of being 'cut off') may just be something they are willing to do.

That's fine. But that isn't where the vast majority of people who go to law school are coming from. Most people are thinking "If I go to law school, I will make a better living for myself than I would have doing X." It's a flat risk-reward calculus. Many people are completely wrong about that calculus.


I don't plan on doing lesser-paying work. I imagine I'll be out-earning my Big Law peers within 3-5 years of graduation.

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Gail
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Re: The Law School Scam

Postby Gail » Wed Nov 16, 2011 5:32 pm

MTal wrote:
Veyron wrote: How can I replicate the six figure income I was expecting to make at graduation?


Either sales, or management. If you're good at sales, you can make 6 figures right away. Management will take longer, that usually involves starting out at your run of the mill retail chain wal mart, target, etc, and working your way up to store manager; they usually make in the low 6 figures. Regional managers make more.


Pfft.

If you're in undergrad, you better be good at sales. These seem to be the only jobs you're going to get. Enjoy Vector Marketing.

ToTransferOrNot
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Re: The Law School Scam

Postby ToTransferOrNot » Wed Nov 16, 2011 5:32 pm

To lunch's last post: lol, ok. Good luck with that. That's the type of ridiculous presumption that gets people burned (for every one successful person in the areas you are looking at, there are piles of people barely managing to get by). But again, you have the benefit of not staring down significant debt if your gamble turns out to be wrong.
Last edited by ToTransferOrNot on Wed Nov 16, 2011 5:33 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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whuts4lunch
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Re: The Law School Scam

Postby whuts4lunch » Wed Nov 16, 2011 5:33 pm

Gail wrote:[Enjoy Vector Marketing.


Lol! I worked for them for 2 weeks about 9 years ago. They still exist???

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whuts4lunch
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Re: The Law School Scam

Postby whuts4lunch » Wed Nov 16, 2011 5:34 pm

ToTransferOrNot wrote:To lunch's last post: lol, ok. Good luck with that. That's the type of ridiculous presumption that gets people burned (for every one successful person in the areas you are looking at, there are piles of people barely managing to get by). But again, you have the benefit of not staring down significant debt if your gamble turns out to be wrong.


If I'm wrong, I go back to earning what I was making before, and I got a great education in the mean time. As much as people hate to admit it, a lot is offered and taught in law school that is very valuable for business and not just practicing law.

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MTal
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Re: The Law School Scam

Postby MTal » Wed Nov 16, 2011 5:34 pm

whuts4lunch wrote:
Gail wrote:[Enjoy Vector Marketing.


Lol! I worked for them for 2 weeks about 9 years ago. They still exist???


Haha, cutco knives FTW.




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