Veterans Thread

(Applications Advice, Letters of Recommendation . . . )
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TheJanitor6203
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Re: Veterans Thread

Postby TheJanitor6203 » Sun Feb 10, 2013 1:38 pm

Tacoma, WA. I was surprised to see that out of 22 test takers 5 of us were military.

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Zoomie
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Re: Veterans Thread

Postby Zoomie » Sun Feb 10, 2013 10:31 pm

TheJanitor6203 wrote:Well hope you did well. I'm dying to know how I did! What are you shooting for? I'm trying for a 165 and I may have got it but I think I got more like a 163.


Well this was my third time. Not a clue how I did. I'm waitlisted at my top choice so I just want to score high enough to get off the list. RC screwed me. I didn't get to the last section. Bebop tripped me up and I finish when she said 5 minutes. I probably made a bad choice by just filling in b's for the last but of well. LG easy, LRs average

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Zoomie
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Re: Veterans Thread

Postby Zoomie » Sun Feb 10, 2013 10:32 pm

mrizza wrote:GL with feb scores. Zoomie, hope the retake was an improvement


Thank you!!! Me too! I don't think it could get worse than my october score:

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hume85
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Re: Veterans Thread

Postby hume85 » Sun Feb 10, 2013 10:33 pm

A belated best of luck to all the veterans that took the Feb. LSAT.

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Cobretti
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Re: Veterans Thread

Postby Cobretti » Sun Feb 17, 2013 6:50 pm

Filling out Need Access and had a question. When we have to declare "Other Untaxed Income/Benefits" do we put our total GI Bill benefits here, or just BAH?

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SemperLegal
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Re: Veterans Thread

Postby SemperLegal » Sun Feb 17, 2013 9:35 pm

I don't believe either. The IRS defines GI Bill has neither income or a benefit, (unlike Combat exclusion pay or allowances) so I think it remains our little secret.

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fatduck
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Re: Veterans Thread

Postby fatduck » Sun Feb 17, 2013 9:36 pm

SemperLegal wrote:I don't believe either. The IRS defines GI Bill has neither income or a benefit, (unlike Combat exclusion pay or allowances) so I think it remains our little secret.

i don't think it matters either way, as schools aren't allowed to count your GI Bill benefits against you when determining financial aid. which might just be another way of saying what you just said.

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SemperLegal
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Re: Veterans Thread

Postby SemperLegal » Sun Feb 17, 2013 9:43 pm

fatduck wrote:
SemperLegal wrote:I don't believe either. The IRS defines GI Bill has neither income or a benefit, (unlike Combat exclusion pay or allowances) so I think it remains our little secret.

i don't think it matters either way, as schools aren't allowed to count your GI Bill benefits against you when determining financial aid. which might just be another way of saying what you just said.


I don't trust them not to consider it, so I don't tell them about it. However, to be honest, part of me thinks that I might be acting unethically or worse.

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Cobretti
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Re: Veterans Thread

Postby Cobretti » Sun Feb 17, 2013 10:01 pm

SemperLegal wrote:
fatduck wrote:
SemperLegal wrote:I don't believe either. The IRS defines GI Bill has neither income or a benefit, (unlike Combat exclusion pay or allowances) so I think it remains our little secret.

i don't think it matters either way, as schools aren't allowed to count your GI Bill benefits against you when determining financial aid. which might just be another way of saying what you just said.

I don't trust them not to consider it, so I don't tell them about it. However, to be honest, part of me thinks that I might be acting unethically or worse.

If that's what everyone else is doing that's what I'll do, thanks

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Rotor
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Re: Veterans Thread

Postby Rotor » Sat Feb 23, 2013 10:09 am

Don't know if anyone here is a serious code-wonk, but considering the page involves both computers and veterans I thought I'd put a plug in for the Google code jam for veterans.

http://code.google.com/codejam/veterans

$2500 prize for the winner.

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unc0mm0n1
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Re: Veterans Thread

Postby unc0mm0n1 » Sat Mar 09, 2013 12:34 pm

Quick question. The GI bill is based on months attended right? Not a cap of certain money a year. I ask because there is a summer program I was considering taking (at a different school than my law schhol). I would be a full-time student (9CR hrs) and as far as I know I should qualify for both Yellow Ribbon and the GI Bill. The operater at the GI Bill hotline told me in that scenerio because both schools are private schools (my law school and this second school), I would have maxed out my benefits for the year thus I couldn't go to the second school for the summer and have the GI Bill/yellow ribbon pay for it. You guys heard of anything like this?

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Rotor
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Re: Veterans Thread

Postby Rotor » Sat Mar 09, 2013 12:54 pm

unc0mm0n1 wrote:Quick question. The GI bill is based on months attended right? Not a cap of certain money a year. I ask because there is a summer program I was considering taking (at a different school than my law schhol). I would be a full-time student (9CR hrs) and as far as I know I should qualify for both Yellow Ribbon and the GI Bill. The operater at the GI Bill hotline told me in that scenerio because both schools are private schools (my law school and this second school), I would have maxed out my benefits for the year thus I couldn't go to the second school for the summer and have the GI Bill/yellow ribbon pay for it. You guys heard of anything like this?

Actually, you are limited both in months and in a $ cap. Your total benefit is limited to 36 months. When you are using your benefit, you have a limit of 18K and change (private schools) or the cost of the program for in state residents (public schools). The 18K (and change) limit is an academic year limit. If you use up the money for your regular program, you're not eligible for more for another program (even if it is for another school). See: http://frwebgate.access.gpo.gov/cgi-bin ... -filed.pdf Of course, if you're not eligible for the base funds, you can't get YRP to cover the summer program either.

The year runs from 1 Aug to 31 July. So, I suppose if your summer program is solely in August, you could argue to fund that first then move the benefit to the law school. There may be some buried regulation that keeps you from doing that, though.

Edit to more directly answer the question.
Last edited by Rotor on Sat Mar 09, 2013 1:05 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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Cobretti
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Re: Veterans Thread

Postby Cobretti » Sat Mar 09, 2013 1:00 pm

Rotor wrote:
unc0mm0n1 wrote:Quick question. The GI bill is based on months attended right? Not a cap of certain money a year. I ask because there is a summer program I was considering taking (at a different school than my law schhol). I would be a full-time student (9CR hrs) and as far as I know I should qualify for both Yellow Ribbon and the GI Bill. The operater at the GI Bill hotline told me in that scenerio because both schools are private schools (my law school and this second school), I would have maxed out my benefits for the year thus I couldn't go to the second school for the summer and have the GI Bill/yellow ribbon pay for it. You guys heard of anything like this?

The 18K (and change) limit is an academic year limit. If you use up to that limit for your regular program, you're not eligible for more for another program (even if it is for another school). See: http://frwebgate.access.gpo.gov/cgi-bin ... -filed.pdf Of course, if you're not eligible for the base funds, you can't get YRP to cover either.

The amount depends on your state, in ca the highest in state grad program is around 45k a year. However the operator is right. If you use YRP that means by definition you're hitting your state's yearly max, so you can't take additional units at another school in the same year.

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Cobretti
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Re: Veterans Thread

Postby Cobretti » Sat Mar 09, 2013 1:03 pm

Rotor wrote:
unc0mm0n1 wrote:Quick question. The GI bill is based on months attended right? Not a cap of certain money a year. I ask because there is a summer program I was considering taking (at a different school than my law schhol). I would be a full-time student (9CR hrs) and as far as I know I should qualify for both Yellow Ribbon and the GI Bill. The operater at the GI Bill hotline told me in that scenerio because both schools are private schools (my law school and this second school), I would have maxed out my benefits for the year thus I couldn't go to the second school for the summer and have the GI Bill/yellow ribbon pay for it. You guys heard of anything like this?

The 18K (and change) limit is an academic year limit. If you use up to that limit for your regular program, you're not eligible for more for another program (even if it is for another school). See: http://frwebgate.access.gpo.gov/cgi-bin ... -filed.pdf Of course, if you're not eligible for the base funds, you can't get YRP to cover either.

The year runs from 1 Aug to 31 July. So, I suppose if your summer program is solely in August, you could argue to fund that first then move the benefit to the law school. There may be some buried regulation that keeps you from doing that, though.
don't schools set fixed amounts that they will cover for YRP? I don't think they would increase the amount for you because you used some of your benefits at another school, effectively making them pay for their program.
Last edited by Cobretti on Sat Mar 09, 2013 2:53 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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unc0mm0n1
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Re: Veterans Thread

Postby unc0mm0n1 » Sat Mar 09, 2013 1:09 pm

Thanks a lot guys.

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Rotor
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Re: Veterans Thread

Postby Rotor » Sat Mar 09, 2013 1:18 pm

mrizza wrote:
Rotor wrote:
unc0mm0n1 wrote:Quick question. The GI bill is based on months attended right? Not a cap of certain money a year. I ask because there is a summer program I was considering taking (at a different school than my law schhol). I would be a full-time student (9CR hrs) and as far as I know I should qualify for both Yellow Ribbon and the GI Bill. The operater at the GI Bill hotline told me in that scenerio because both schools are private schools (my law school and this second school), I would have maxed out my benefits for the year thus I couldn't go to the second school for the summer and have the GI Bill/yellow ribbon pay for it. You guys heard of anything like this?

The 18K (and change) limit is an academic year limit. If you use up to that limit for your regular program, you're not eligible for more for another program (even if it is for another school). See: http://frwebgate.access.gpo.gov/cgi-bin ... -filed.pdf Of course, if you're not eligible for the base funds, you can't get YRP to cover either.

The year runs from 1 Aug to 31 July. So, I suppose if your summer program is solely in August, you could argue to fund that first then move the benefit to the law school. There may be some buried regulation that keeps you from doing that, though.[/quotn't] don't schools set fixed amounts that they will cover for YRP? I don't think they would increase the amount for you because you used some of your benefits at another school, effectively making them pay for their program.


Yes, but it's usually expressed as a cap, not a fixed amount. Here's what I was thinking. Assume private law school annual tuition 40K, summer program private school tuition 5K, round down GI Bill benefit to 18K to simplify the math and a school that contributes 15K to YRP.

Here's the way I could see it possibly working out.

Aug 1-- slate clears: 0 benefit used to date. Pay summer program tuition-- 5 K against the cap.
Sept 1--Regular program starts, bills 20K to VA. VA pays 9K per semester* so 4K remaining gets paid from GIB and 16K from YRP (8 from school, 8 from VA)
Jan 1-- Second semester, regular program bills 20K. VA pays remaining 9K of ac year GIB entitlement and 11 from YRP (5.5K from school, 5.5K from VA)

Of course, you would have to be careful about not blowing through the school's YRP cap in trying to squeeze it in this way. I'll also note, it's entirely unrealistic because most schools start mid August, not in September, so you'd have to find a program that you could squeeze into those couple of weeks before school starts.

*Not sure if this is how VA actually works their payments to private schools. For example, the book stipend doesn't come 500/500, but through some whack formula based on credit hours. I always seemed to get something like 650/350.

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Cobretti
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Re: Veterans Thread

Postby Cobretti » Sat Mar 09, 2013 2:59 pm

Rotor wrote:
mrizza wrote:
Rotor wrote:
unc0mm0n1 wrote:Quick question. The GI bill is based on months attended right? Not a cap of certain money a year. I ask because there is a summer program I was considering taking (at a different school than my law schhol). I would be a full-time student (9CR hrs) and as far as I know I should qualify for both Yellow Ribbon and the GI Bill. The operater at the GI Bill hotline told me in that scenerio because both schools are private schools (my law school and this second school), I would have maxed out my benefits for the year thus I couldn't go to the second school for the summer and have the GI Bill/yellow ribbon pay for it. You guys heard of anything like this?

The 18K (and change) limit is an academic year limit. If you use up to that limit for your regular program, you're not eligible for more for another program (even if it is for another school). See: http://frwebgate.access.gpo.gov/cgi-bin ... -filed.pdf Of course, if you're not eligible for the base funds, you can't get YRP to cover either.

The year runs from 1 Aug to 31 July. So, I suppose if your summer program is solely in August, you could argue to fund that first then move the benefit to the law school. There may be some buried regulation that keeps you from doing that, though.
don't schools set fixed amounts that they will cover for YRP? I don't think they would increase the amount for you because you used some of your benefits at another school, effectively making them pay for their program.

Yes, but it's usually expressed as a cap, not a fixed amount. Here's what I was thinking. Assume private law school annual tuition 40K, summer program private school tuition 5K, round down GI Bill benefit to 18K to simplify the math and a school that contributes 15K to YRP.

Here's the way I could see it possibly working out.

Aug 1-- slate clears: 0 benefit used to date. Pay summer program tuition-- 5 K against the cap.
Sept 1--Regular program starts, bills 20K to VA. VA pays 9K per semester* so 4K remaining gets paid from GIB and 16K from YRP (8 from school, 8 from VA)
Jan 1-- Second semester, regular program bills 20K. VA pays remaining 9K of ac year GIB entitlement and 11 from YRP (5.5K from school, 5.5K from VA)

Of course, you would have to be careful about not blowing through the school's YRP cap in trying to squeeze it in this way. I'll also note, it's entirely unrealistic because most schools start mid August, not in September, so you'd have to find a program that you could squeeze into those couple of weeks before school starts.

*Not sure if this is how VA actually works their payments to private schools. For example, the book stipend doesn't come 500/500, but through some whack formula based on credit hours. I always seemed to get something like 650/350.

I think in this example it would actually work out like this:

Aug1 - VA Pays 5K to Summer Institution, you now have 13k of GI entitlements for the year
Sept1 - VA Pays 9K to Law school, YRP pays 11K (5.5 + 5.5), you now have 4K of GI Entitlements for the year
Jan1 - VA pays 4K to law school, YRP pays 11*4/9 = 4.9k (2.45 + 2.45) and you have to pay the remaining 11K for the year

I'm pretty sure in these examples the schools work out exactly how much it would cost to cover the YRP and set the cap at that, so I don't think they would be willing to go beyond 5.5K / semester. However even if they were I think the billing from the summer institution and the billing from the law school would be entirely separate, so they would never even be asked to cover the extra 3.5k.

It might not be on a first come first serve basis like I'm assuming, but every other instance I've ever worked with finance they've worked it out in their favor. Regardless of what we're saying though, call the VA and ask if you're serious about it.

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Rotor
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Re: Veterans Thread

Postby Rotor » Sat Mar 09, 2013 9:53 pm

mrizza wrote:I'm pretty sure in these examples the schools work out exactly how much it would cost to cover the YRP and set the cap at that

I agree that would make sense, but it's not the way I've seen it work. I helped Berkeley set up their program. And even though I made a similar recommendation, I found other factors (mostly budget related) tended to be the determining factor.

As an example, the delta between in state and out of state at Berkeley is $4k. (48k v 52k). Yet the YRP is $5k x 10 vets. For the same 50k, they could cover 2k x 25 and still make up the difference between the two rates.

You also have some schools--UCLA among them--that basically give unlimited.

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Re: Veterans Thread

Postby LawGuy23 » Mon Mar 25, 2013 12:52 pm

Someone please tell me whether my thought process is off here: I'm wondering whether Yellow Ribbon eligibility could realistically hurt one's chances of getting admitted to certain law schools. As YRP constitutes oftentimes substantial financial assistance not tied to either merit (in terms of GPA/LSAT) or financial need, it got me thinking about how it could negatively impact one's chances towards getting an offer for admission.

With the downturn in applications, schools are obviously trying to keep their numbers up (for rankings) and at the same time bring as much money in the door as possible to keep the ship going. So...I could see a scenario where you have a YRP candidate whose numbers would be "just good enough" to gain admittance paying sticker, but when the admission folks infer YRP eligibility (and realize that they might have to automatically disburse a substantial YRP scholarship), they might be be much more inclined to take a pass on that candidate and ensure that $$$ gets offered to a candidate with more stratospheric numbers.

Obviously a few assumptions above (esp. focused on individual school policies related to YRP), but just wondering what others think...

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Rotor
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Re: Veterans Thread

Postby Rotor » Mon Mar 25, 2013 10:47 pm

LawGuy23 wrote:Someone please tell me whether my thought process is off here: I'm wondering whether Yellow Ribbon eligibility could realistically hurt one's chances of getting admitted to certain law schools. As YRP constitutes oftentimes substantial financial assistance not tied to either merit (in terms of GPA/LSAT) or financial need, it got me thinking about how it could negatively impact one's chances towards getting an offer for admission.

With the downturn in applications, schools are obviously trying to keep their numbers up (for rankings) and at the same time bring as much money in the door as possible to keep the ship going. So...I could see a scenario where you have a YRP candidate whose numbers would be "just good enough" to gain admittance paying sticker, but when the admission folks infer YRP eligibility (and realize that they might have to automatically disburse a substantial YRP scholarship), they might be be much more inclined to take a pass on that candidate and ensure that $$$ gets offered to a candidate with more stratospheric numbers.

Obviously a few assumptions above (esp. focused on individual school policies related to YRP), but just wondering what others think...

If they don't admit you because you are YRP eligible, they are also turning away your regular chapter 33 $$ and the 50% of YRP that would come from VA. Seems like cutting off their nose to spite their face, if you ask me.

Plus, if they didn't want to give the YRP money, they could just reduce the amount available, reduce the number of slots available, or eliminate the YRP participation altogether.

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PBateman1
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Re: Veterans Thread

Postby PBateman1 » Tue Mar 26, 2013 6:12 pm

How are the veteran cycles going thus far? I've been accepted at UCLA, Vandy, Northwestern, GULC, WUSTL, and UF. Waitlisted at UPenn, UVA, and Mich. Still waiting on Harvard, NYU, and Cornell. So far I'd say my cycle is in line with numbers, although I got a veterans-only scholarship at Vandy so there was one perk to veteran status.

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PBateman1
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Re: Veterans Thread

Postby PBateman1 » Tue Mar 26, 2013 6:12 pm

Also, if I have full yellow ribbon eligibility and receive merit aid from a school, can I pocket that merit aid?

LawGuy23
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Re: Veterans Thread

Postby LawGuy23 » Tue Mar 26, 2013 8:20 pm

Rotor wrote:
LawGuy23 wrote:Someone please tell me whether my thought process is off here: I'm wondering whether Yellow Ribbon eligibility could realistically hurt one's chances of getting admitted to certain law schools. As YRP constitutes oftentimes substantial financial assistance not tied to either merit (in terms of GPA/LSAT) or financial need, it got me thinking about how it could negatively impact one's chances towards getting an offer for admission.

With the downturn in applications, schools are obviously trying to keep their numbers up (for rankings) and at the same time bring as much money in the door as possible to keep the ship going. So...I could see a scenario where you have a YRP candidate whose numbers would be "just good enough" to gain admittance paying sticker, but when the admission folks infer YRP eligibility (and realize that they might have to automatically disburse a substantial YRP scholarship), they might be be much more inclined to take a pass on that candidate and ensure that $$$ gets offered to a candidate with more stratospheric numbers.

Obviously a few assumptions above (esp. focused on individual school policies related to YRP), but just wondering what others think...

If they don't admit you because you are YRP eligible, they are also turning away your regular chapter 33 $$ and the 50% of YRP that would come from VA. Seems like cutting off their nose to spite their face, if you ask me.

Plus, if they didn't want to give the YRP money, they could just reduce the amount available, reduce the number of slots available, or eliminate the YRP participation altogether.


Thanks for the reply. Just a few follow-up points:

I think this would be most applicable to higher ranked schools, especially certain T-14 ones. The latter group likely have little trouble finding applicants willing to pay sticker, but I presume they want those sticker-payers as close to targeted medians as possible. To illustrate the point, let's take two "identical" candidates (same LSAT & GPA...and both somewhat below medians) who are vying for a spot in the next incoming class at a T-14 that has a generous YRP. Now let's say that you're an admissions officer, and you've determined that you have space for only ONE of those candidates. With the non-YRP applicant you get three years of full-tuition revenue from that student. With the "identical" (as it relates to numbers) YRP applicant, you're seeing an automatic scholarship (perhaps very sizable) going out the door to someone who might not otherwise not get any financial aid from the school...except due to the YRP eligibility. If you're focused on balancing US News rankings with school revenue, the YRP applicant in this case makes for a bad choice.

As far as being able to reduce the slots for YRP or the amount distributed per slot, I can't see any of the schools making adjustments on the fly (e.g., changing program parameters more often than yearly). And with the YRP aid being rather unique (you automatically get it if you get admitted - subject to slots available, of course), I tend to think YRP could come into play for certain admissions decisions. I would think that the schools view YRP as a boon for attracting high-number (above median candidates), in the same way they might throw full tuition rides at any type of top-shelf applicant. I would guess that there is also a perceived PR benefit. Where I think all this could really come into play is with the YRP candidates who might just slip in to their reach school (paying sticker), but who might get passed over due to the automatic YRP dollars that they could draw.

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pruufreadr
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Re: Veterans Thread

Postby pruufreadr » Wed Mar 27, 2013 2:06 am

I hadn't considered the YRP problem. I've had a few schools ask me if I planned to use my GI Bill benefits and they were all surprised that:

#1. I used mine already.
#2. The one I had could not be used for grad/professional school.
#3. They expire. I'm old.

I've been wondering why one of the schools I applied to told me that I was going to be an "admit" on the phone, but haven't even bothered to waitlist me yet. Perhaps they are saving their YRP slots for folks with better numbers and want to admit me after their slots are gone. I certainly think this line of thinking is worth a phone call or LOCI. I'll let you guys know if they tell me that worrying about admissions and the YRP is crazy talk or not.

MapsMapsMaps
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Re: Veterans Thread

Postby MapsMapsMaps » Wed Mar 27, 2013 11:10 am

Any idea when the new GI Bill and Yellow Ribbon amounts are published?




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