Veterans Thread

(Applications Advice, Letters of Recommendation . . . )
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Cobretti
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Re: Veterans Thread

Postby Cobretti » Fri Sep 25, 2015 12:58 am

gunton224 wrote:
mdubs314 wrote:
EyesForward wrote:New to the forums. Like most, I'm looking for suggestions/advice/opinion regarding admissions.

Military Info:
1LT - Army National Guard
UH60M Pilot (2.5 years)
No Deployments
Graduated Top of Flight School Class
Work Experience: Senior Financial Analyst @ largest CPA firm in my state (1.5 years)

GPA: 2.91 B.S. from big state with a significant upward trend. Changed majors three times and finished with a 3.4 over my last 60 hours.
LSAT: 158 & 164
Two very, very strong LoR's


I'm extremely focused on Aviation Law, which does not play much of a factor in JD admissions outside of the fact that I absolutely know what I want to do and will be able to clearly communicate that in my applications. Hoping to emphasize the low GPA is attributed to an inability to decide on a degree path/career rather than intellectual/academic ability. I found what I wanted to do (Aviation) and immediately finished at the top of my flight school class as a result.

What do y'all think regarding my admissions possibilities? Are schools like BC/BU/UNC realistic? Scholarship chances at such schools? How about a 'reach' school such as Northwestern/Vandy? I'm confident I would be looking at some nice money from schools like Tulane but want to maximize my admission opportunities as much as possible.


1) with a 164 in the current law school market, those schools are realistic.
2) the fact that your uGPA was 5'ish years ago helps, too.
3) blanket the T14. You'll likely get 1-2 bites. Be ready to make a hard push with those that WL you.
4) I'd say the T15-T23 are in your wheelhouse if you have a spotless application and a good PS.
5) if you want to focus on aviation law, get your ATP to add to your credibility down the road.
6) don't go overboard with the uGPA addendum. Don't overthink it. Whatever the issue was, explain how you've fixed it and why it's no longer an issue. The upward rise on the last 60hrs is what you want them to focus on. Leave it at that.
7) NW and Vandy are both great schools for Vets. I would suggest adding WUSTL to your list. also very vet friendly.

Shameless plug that you should be contacting service2School if you haven't already. Register for the live streaming workshop on 24 Oct if you'll be available.


I'm curious to get other opinions on the t-14 chances for someone with these numbers/resume. I've seen over and over that "you won't outperform your numbers" pretty much without exception. LSN would suggest such numbers are unlikely to meet any success in the t-14. I'm in a similar boat and hoping for a 170 in a couple weeks (though 165 is more realistic), but do you guys really think 2.9-3.0 and 165 have a decent chance at NW? I was an idiot in UG at a big state school, enlisted (promoted fast, spotless record), returned for 3 semesters with a 4.0 but only a 3.0 cumulative. I've been thinking it's 170 or bust... :o

Sorry but mdubs is really spreading a lot of misinformation here as a 0L...

From my cycle in 2013 I didn't outperform my numbers at all, and that seems to be par for the course. You might do slightly better at realistic reaches, but a 3.0/165 doesn't have any realistic reaches in the t-14. With the GI Bill you shouldn't be as worried about attending a slightly lower ranked school since you will be graduating with little or no debt, but you shouldn't expect to get into a t-14 with those numbers. If you hit 168 you seem to be set though, so keep study and best of luck.

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mdubs314
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Re: Veterans Thread

Postby mdubs314 » Fri Sep 25, 2015 1:08 am

Cobretti wrote:
mdubs314 wrote:
ArmyRN wrote:Hi,

I just wanted to introduce myself. I will be applying this cycle. I am an Army Captain who did ROTC in college. I am a nursing officer (worked Hematology/Oncology at Walter Reed for 3 years and Psych at Ft. Jackson for 2). Just finishing up my personal statement and resume.

Stats
GPA: 3.3
LSAT: 172
Age: 28


Great LSAT. Unless you have a clear favorite, don't apply ED (unless it's a T3). Every school is in play, even with a 3.3.

-Interview prep. Practice practice practice. This will likely be the difference between a T3 and a T7.

Great stats RN, you're going to have a great cycle. Just wanted to temper expectations because HYS is not in play with your GPA, but you are definitely in play everywhere below that. Congrats again, GL.


It's unfortunate that you think that Corbetti. I would say that the T3 are more in play that a school like NYU. YHS will have no problem maintaining their rankings. If anything, a low(er) GPA is easier to average-out than a low LSAT in today's law school market. Maybe 7 years ago she wouldn't have a chance. Maybe next year will be different, but last year and this year are likely the best opportunity for someone with her numbers for a long time.

I'm not advocating that ArmyRN start looking for an apartment just yet, but a T3 is absolutely possible. And I don't mean that in an "anything is possible" type of way. Yale could be a reach unless they has some strong softs (other than being a vet). Harvard and Stanford are realistic.

ArmyRNs chances are more plausible than a 160/3.5'ish getting into Stanford. They'll need to have a perfect application and a PS that isn't run-of-the-mill. Additional essay submittals will need to be on point, too.

ArmyRN, do not sell yourself short. Aim to get your applications in by 01 Nov, and be prepared to not get admitted until very late in the cycle. Feel free to use our guide if it'll help: https://service2schooldotorg1.files.wordpress.com/2011/08/s2s-jd-guidebook-version-2.pdf

Don't go at it alone. There are resources out there to help people in your exact shoes.
Last edited by mdubs314 on Fri Sep 25, 2015 1:45 am, edited 1 time in total.

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mdubs314
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Re: Veterans Thread

Postby mdubs314 » Fri Sep 25, 2015 1:34 am

Cobretti wrote:
gunton224 wrote:
mdubs314 wrote:
EyesForward wrote:New to the forums. Like most, I'm looking for suggestions/advice/opinion regarding admissions.

Military Info:
1LT - Army National Guard
UH60M Pilot (2.5 years)
No Deployments
Graduated Top of Flight School Class
Work Experience: Senior Financial Analyst @ largest CPA firm in my state (1.5 years)

GPA: 2.91 B.S. from big state with a significant upward trend. Changed majors three times and finished with a 3.4 over my last 60 hours.
LSAT: 158 & 164
Two very, very strong LoR's


I'm extremely focused on Aviation Law, which does not play much of a factor in JD admissions outside of the fact that I absolutely know what I want to do and will be able to clearly communicate that in my applications. Hoping to emphasize the low GPA is attributed to an inability to decide on a degree path/career rather than intellectual/academic ability. I found what I wanted to do (Aviation) and immediately finished at the top of my flight school class as a result.

What do y'all think regarding my admissions possibilities? Are schools like BC/BU/UNC realistic? Scholarship chances at such schools? How about a 'reach' school such as Northwestern/Vandy? I'm confident I would be looking at some nice money from schools like Tulane but want to maximize my admission opportunities as much as possible.


1) with a 164 in the current law school market, those schools are realistic.
2) the fact that your uGPA was 5'ish years ago helps, too.
3) blanket the T14. You'll likely get 1-2 bites. Be ready to make a hard push with those that WL you.
4) I'd say the T15-T23 are in your wheelhouse if you have a spotless application and a good PS.
5) if you want to focus on aviation law, get your ATP to add to your credibility down the road.
6) don't go overboard with the uGPA addendum. Don't overthink it. Whatever the issue was, explain how you've fixed it and why it's no longer an issue. The upward rise on the last 60hrs is what you want them to focus on. Leave it at that.
7) NW and Vandy are both great schools for Vets. I would suggest adding WUSTL to your list. also very vet friendly.

Shameless plug that you should be contacting service2School if you haven't already. Register for the live streaming workshop on 24 Oct if you'll be available.


I'm curious to get other opinions on the t-14 chances for someone with these numbers/resume. I've seen over and over that "you won't outperform your numbers" pretty much without exception. LSN would suggest such numbers are unlikely to meet any success in the t-14. I'm in a similar boat and hoping for a 170 in a couple weeks (though 165 is more realistic), but do you guys really think 2.9-3.0 and 165 have a decent chance at NW? I was an idiot in UG at a big state school, enlisted (promoted fast, spotless record), returned for 3 semesters with a 4.0 but only a 3.0 cumulative. I've been thinking it's 170 or bust... :o

Sorry but mdubs is really spreading a lot of misinformation here as a 0L...

From my cycle in 2013 I didn't outperform my numbers at all, and that seems to be par for the course. You might do slightly better at realistic reaches, but a 3.0/165 doesn't have any realistic reaches in the t-14. With the GI Bill you shouldn't be as worried about attending a slightly lower ranked school since you will be graduating with little or no debt, but you shouldn't expect to get into a t-14 with those numbers. If you hit 168 you seem to be set though, so keep study and best of luck.



You're using your own sample data of 1 (From 2013) as your basis? I think your heart is in the right spot and you have the passion for helping vets. I'll give you that, but Your input is skewed towards the advice that should go to a K-JD.

We could use more vets like you at S2S. You'd be privy to more data points that I'm sure would change your opinion, too.

Eyesforward , If your ultimate goal is NU, don't forget that they have a mandatory interview process. If you don't sign up for one at your location soon, you might be forced to go to the NU campus. Great campus in downtown Chicago, but now you're talking travel expenses. They don't give any brownie points for doing the interview on campus vs with a local alumnus. You have to complete the interview before you can even submit your application. Bottom line: don't delay.

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Re: Veterans Thread

Postby ArmyRN » Fri Sep 25, 2015 11:24 am

Thanks for the advice and encouragement everyone. Berkley is my top choice (I assumed Stanford was out of reach) as it is closest to home for me and my mom is sick, but I plan to blanket the T-14. I only qualify for 70% of the GI bill (I only did 23 months after my initial 4 year commitment), so I'll likely choose a public school. I was big into law in high school; legal magnet president, mock trial captain, student traffic court etc. My mom was diagnosed with cancer my senior year and this motivated me to become an Oncology RN knowing I would eventually attend law school. Being an Army brat I was compelled to go ROTC. This is what my PS focuses on. My love for law, going into nursing, how my experience as a nurse prepared me for law school, and why I am ready to start studying law.

In preparation for law school over the past six years I have done a lot of researching in investing. As a result I have accumulated over 140k in wealth through real estate and stocks. I would like to convey this in my application, but can't find a place for it in my resume and in my PS I feel as though it comes across as having a large ego. Is this something I should include or just leave out?

Lanre
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Re: Veterans Thread

Postby Lanre » Fri Sep 25, 2015 12:53 pm

Hello All:

This is probably answered elsewhere so I apologize in advance. If I gain admission to a school and then choose to join the military, does the school have to defer my admission? I have seen some material indicating this. Hoping for a little confirmation from someone who's done this.

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mdubs314
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Re: Veterans Thread

Postby mdubs314 » Fri Sep 25, 2015 1:48 pm

[deleted. Technical issues. User error]
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mdubs314
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Re: Veterans Thread

Postby mdubs314 » Fri Sep 25, 2015 2:06 pm

[deleted]
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Lanre
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Re: Veterans Thread

Postby Lanre » Fri Sep 25, 2015 2:10 pm

mdubs314 wrote:
Lanre wrote:Hello All:

This is probably answered elsewhere so I apologize in advance. If I gain admission to a school and then choose to join the military, does the school have to defer my admission? I have seen some material indicating this. Hoping for a little confirmation from someone who's done this.


If someone knows of a congressional act that says otherwise, please chime in, but as far as I know, schools are not obligated to defer your enrollment simply because you join the military.

I wouldn't mention anything about the military option until after they accept you, but once they do, try and keep a candid dialogue with the school. If you do 100% know you're going to the military though, you might consider pulling your applications. Some admission boards might not take kindly to you submitting apps when you have ZERO intention of going to school that year. If things are still undecided, that's okay. It's where you have other plans already in place that you cross into a grey area. They'd likely tell you to apply for the year you plan to enroll, not ahead of time simply because you are planning to ask for a deferral.

I differed my enrollment for medical reasons.


Nothing's set in stone. I'm sort of hedging my bets here.

Thanks for the feedback.

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mdubs314
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Re: Veterans Thread

Postby mdubs314 » Fri Sep 25, 2015 5:31 pm

ArmyRN wrote:Thanks for the advice and encouragement everyone. Berkley is my top choice (I assumed Stanford was out of reach) as it is closest to home for me and my mom is sick, but I plan to blanket the T-14. I only qualify for 70% of the GI bill (I only did 23 months after my initial 4 year commitment), so I'll likely choose a public school. I was big into law in high school; legal magnet president, mock trial captain, student traffic court etc. My mom was diagnosed with cancer my senior year and this motivated me to become an Oncology RN knowing I would eventually attend law school. Being an Army brat I was compelled to go ROTC. This is what my PS focuses on. My love for law, going into nursing, how my experience as a nurse prepared me for law school, and why I am ready to start studying law.

In preparation for law school over the past six years I have done a lot of researching in investing. As a result I have accumulated over 140k in wealth through real estate and stocks. I would like to convey this in my application, but can't find a place for it in my resume and in my PS I feel as though it comes across as having a large ego. Is this something I should include or just leave out?


I don't think the investing stuff adds much value. It gives you a different dimension, so perhaps it could be something in the "other" section of your resume. There might be a specific optional essay where you can throw it into the mix, otherwise you're also telling schools that you don't need much scholarship money. Is that the message you want them to hear?

Stanford won't waive their $100 fee for vets. Apply anyway, even if you don't have any Stanford specific L-of-Rs. Berkeley could very likely offer you a quick admit if you get your app in soon enough. Don't rush it, but aim for an early submittal.

How far away from separating are you? Have you gotten your VA physical yet? You should look into vocational rehab if you qualify for a 20% VA rating. Vocational rehab is equivelent to the GI Bill. A little bit better in fact. If you go that route, Don't let a VA rep talk you out of it. Stick to your guns that a JD is the ONLY way you'll be able to accomplish your goals in life now that you're out of the service.

Good luck. Let us all know how it goes. You'll have great options no matter what.
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Re: Veterans Thread

Postby mdubs314 » Fri Sep 25, 2015 7:50 pm

[deleted. Accidental repeat]
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Re: Veterans Thread

Postby mdubs314 » Fri Sep 25, 2015 7:55 pm

Yup. Another accidental repeat; deleted
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Re: Veterans Thread

Postby Dcc617 » Fri Sep 25, 2015 8:33 pm

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mdubs314
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Re: Veterans Thread

Postby mdubs314 » Fri Sep 25, 2015 8:58 pm

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Dcc617
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Re: Veterans Thread

Postby Dcc617 » Fri Sep 25, 2015 9:06 pm

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mdubs314
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Re: Veterans Thread

Postby mdubs314 » Fri Sep 25, 2015 9:13 pm

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Dcc617
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Re: Veterans Thread

Postby Dcc617 » Fri Sep 25, 2015 9:14 pm

mdubs314 wrote:Ahhhh...gotcha, thanks for pointing it out. I think I might have been responding to people by typing at the top of the text box above a quote instead of below. Is this better?


Yep, now you're quoting correctly. 8)

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Cobretti
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Re: Veterans Thread

Postby Cobretti » Fri Sep 25, 2015 11:16 pm

mdubs314 wrote:
Cobretti wrote:From my cycle in 2013 I didn't outperform my numbers at all, and that seems to be par for the course. You might do slightly better at realistic reaches, but a 3.0/165 doesn't have any realistic reaches in the t-14. With the GI Bill you shouldn't be as worried about attending a slightly lower ranked school since you will be graduating with little or no debt, but you shouldn't expect to get into a t-14 with those numbers. If you hit 168 you seem to be set though, so keep study and best of luck.



You're using your own sample data of 1 (From 2013) as your basis? I think your heart is in the right spot and you have the passion for helping vets. I'll give you that, but Your input is skewed towards the advice that should go to a K-JD.

We could use more vets like you at S2S. You'd be privy to more data points that I'm sure would change your opinion, too.

I'm not basing it solely on my experience, I am basing that on myself and other vets on this board. The general consensus every time we have this debate ITT is that there is a negligible bump at most and it is certainly not enough to make up for numbers well below both medians. Feel free to search this thread, there are more than enough data points here to support it.

Not trying to be negative, just trying to convey what most vets on this forum have concluded on this topic.

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Re: Veterans Thread

Postby UnicornHunter » Sat Sep 26, 2015 12:20 am

This random dude that I totally don't know and definitely isn't me seems pretty relevant to ArmyRN's situation: http://lawschoolnumbers.com/AfghanTourist

I heard that a bunch of people had already gotten JS1s/JS2s when he withdrew his application from Harvard, so I think HYS would be a stretch for someone with that profile but, you never know.

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Re: Veterans Thread

Postby biglawhopeful18 » Sat Sep 26, 2015 1:33 am

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mdubs314
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Re: Veterans Thread

Postby mdubs314 » Sat Sep 26, 2015 2:22 am

For those that say they were accepted IAW their numbers, how many of you worked with an admission consulting firm? Perhaps that is a better way to compare apples to apples.

That's the entire basis for a firm's existence, isn't it? If those business only get applicants into schools they would have gotten into on their own, consulting firms would have little value.

more specifically, how many used an all-inclusive service consultation firm/service? Not just some site that gave you a little feedback on your PS, but stuck with you through the entire cradle-to-grave process?

If you didn't see me post it earlier, we recently worked with a white male who is now at Stanford with a 3.5/160. I'd say that's a rare case at one extreme of our succes-story spectrum, but how many would have guessed that was possible?

Is it not reasonable to consider that an organization specializing in veteran admission consulting can have a track record of helping vets get into schools well above what a K-JD with similar numbers could get into? Are we not offering the same all-inclusive services that a commercial consulting firms offers?

As a reminder, we work with vets for FREE.
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SemperLegal
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Re: Veterans Thread

Postby SemperLegal » Sat Sep 26, 2015 8:06 am

I think I probably hit my numbers fairly correctly, if sporadically. Maybe a slightly below.

However, I was after the economy crashed, but at the peak of the law school craze. So, its possible that I did outperform a rough field. For the record, here is my predictions from LSP that year next to my result:

SCHOOL PROBABILITY RESULT
Harvard University 7% Rejected
Columbia University 29% WL/reject
Berkeley 39% Accepted
Pennsylvania 48% WL/reject
New York University 53% Reject (Screw them, the Gmail preview said "..Offer you admission"
University of Virginia 56% Reject
Duke University 82% WL/reject
Georgetown 92.% Accept
Northwestern 66% Accept (with huge scholly)
Cornell University 95% Like a lot of us that year, they never responded.

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Re: Veterans Thread

Postby OLitch » Sat Sep 26, 2015 9:33 am

I was just dinged from my top choice. Now, I'm rethinking my chances of getting in anywhere. I would like to get into a T14. I'm in pity party mode worried that even regional schools (vandy, Emory, W&M...) are a long shot.

4 years noncombatant military enlisted
163 LSAT
3.70 UGPA with a bad first year and a near 4.0 for the rest of my time
3.9 grad GPA
Lots of community service
I have one additional great soft but also a gap in my employment history
2 LORs from bosses.

Military service, grad degree, and huge upward trend in UGPA make it difficult for me to judge where I stand.

What do you think my chances are?

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Cobretti
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Re: Veterans Thread

Postby Cobretti » Sat Sep 26, 2015 10:51 am

biglawhopeful18 wrote:I'm going to agree with the tempered expectations approach. I marginally outperformed my numbers, even with distinguished service and compelling PS/DS (Purple Heart, multicultural background). 3.35/167 and snagged some lower t14''s; dinged by entire t10. I will note that I initially had a lower lsat and retook in December for the 167, so I wasn't necessarily able to get apps in early. From talking to vets and law firm contacts, the vet boost is much more pronounced in legal hiring than law school admissions.

I agree with the legal hiring bump, definitely seems to be the case.

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Cobretti
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Re: Veterans Thread

Postby Cobretti » Sat Sep 26, 2015 10:55 am

OLitch wrote:I was just dinged from my top choice. Now, I'm rethinking my chances of getting in anywhere. I would like to get into a T14. I'm in pity party mode worried that even regional schools (vandy, Emory, W&M...) are a long shot.

4 years noncombatant military enlisted
163 LSAT
3.70 UGPA with a bad first year and a near 4.0 for the rest of my time
3.9 grad GPA
Lots of community service
I have one additional great soft but also a gap in my employment history
2 LORs from bosses.

Military service, grad degree, and huge upward trend in UGPA make it difficult for me to judge where I stand.

What do you think my chances are?

How many times have you taken the LSAT? If you could just get up to like 167 you would be in a substantially better spot. I think what might be hurting you is that your GPA is good but it's still just below median at most t14s, so it's not quite enough to make up for a lower LSAT.

If you only took it once, or you did less than 30 full timed practice tests for prep, you might be better off reapplying.

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mdubs314
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Re: Veterans Thread

Postby mdubs314 » Sat Sep 26, 2015 11:14 am

OLitch wrote:I was just dinged from my top choice. Now, I'm rethinking my chances of getting in anywhere. I would like to get into a T14. I'm in pity party mode worried that even regional schools (vandy, Emory, W&M...) are a long shot.

4 years noncombatant military enlisted
163 LSAT
3.70 UGPA with a bad first year and a near 4.0 for the rest of my time
3.9 grad GPA
Lots of community service
I have one additional great soft but also a gap in my employment history
2 LORs from bosses.

Military service, grad degree, and huge upward trend in UGPA make it difficult for me to judge where I stand.

What do you think my chances are?


When those rejection letters start rolling in, it's hard to NOT go into pity-party mode. I remember when I got my rejection letter from Boalt (my #1). I think your chances are decent at getting WLd at those schools you listed. Since you've already submitted, It's hard to talk about your chances at a T14 without seeing your full application.
1) your grad GPA is meaningless. Have you thought about asking one of your grad school teachers for a L-of-R? You could submit that to school that WL you.
2) start reaching out to the veteran associations at each school. You'll often come upon a vet that works with the admission office; someone the admission office specifically ask to talk to vets. Treat those conversations like an unofficial interview. Prep for them like an interview. The tone will be more casual, but prep for it and treat it like an interview. Vandy has a veteran professor you'll likely get put in touch with. That's a good thing. He's a huge advocate for vets and will likely ask you about coming out to see the campus and talk with him. If you have the ability to travel to Vandy and meet with him, do so.
3) IMO, Emory isn't as veteran friendly as the other schools in its Tier. That judgment is somewhat based on their yellow ribbon contribution rate, which is terribly low. Even if you can't tap into the yellow ribbon program, a school's contribution rate can serve as an litmus test for the value they place on veteran status during the admissions process. Perhaps there is a Emory vet on TLS that can chime in. Maybe they offer substantial scholarship money instead.
4) I don't know as much about W&M. Sorry.
5) consider adding ND and WUSTL to the mix if you haven't already. great schools for vets in that Tier.
6) Have you been submitting the "why XYZ law school" essays? If not, start giving those some thought. You'll want to submit those to schools that WL you. You can still contact service2school for help even if you've already submitted.
7) agree that you should consider taking the LSAT again. A few more points could make a huge difference.




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