Veterans Thread

(Applications Advice, Letters of Recommendation . . . )
KPUSN07

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Re: Veterans Thread

Postby KPUSN07 » Sat Dec 16, 2017 10:25 pm

AJordan wrote:
NavyNuke wrote:Admitted to Michigan with 25K a year. Asked financial aid office how this would be affected by my being 100% GI Bill eligible, and they said the scholarship would be applied to my account and refunded to me NTE the estimated COL (which for this year they have at 19.5K).
Has this been others' experience with GI Bill + scholarship? Sounds way too good to be true. Earlier in this thread people were saying GI Bill is last payer after all scholarships have been applied. Anybody know for sure how this all works? Thanks in advance!


Anecdotal so take it fwiw. Michigan seems to be making a push to get more vets in their class. I have been contacted by a UM 3L vet even though A) at this point I'm nothing but an LSAT score (one above their 75th but still...) and B) I'm not even applying until next cycle. The student who contacted me specifically stated that UM was trying to reach out to increase the number of vets at the school. Couple that with your anecdote here as well as the fact that UM's admissions office has one of the better reputations and it almost makes a bit of sense that they know what they're talking about and specifically moving vet scholarships in that manner to facilitate more vets going to Michigan. If so, that's phenomenal news.


Interesting.... my numbers aren't close so admission is very unlikely - but that is interesting.

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Re: Veterans Thread

Postby MrLions » Sun Dec 17, 2017 5:33 am

I'm interested in enlisting in the Army after graduation in May 2018 for a 2-yr active duty contract, and then using the post 9/11 GI bill to help pay for law school. Would I be able to do that by only taking off two academic years, or would the 2-yr active duty, plus basic and AIT, extend a bit beyond August 2020?

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Re: Veterans Thread

Postby Dcc617 » Sun Dec 17, 2017 6:40 am

MrLions wrote:I'm interested in enlisting in the Army after graduation in May 2018 for a 2-yr active duty contract, and then using the post 9/11 GI bill to help pay for law school. Would I be able to do that by only taking off two academic years, or would the 2-yr active duty, plus basic and AIT, extend a bit beyond August 2020?


You need three years, including IET to be 100% GI Bill eligible. And you can never be sure of timing when it comes to the army. My exit got delayed about 6 months just because. Also, make sure that you actually want to do the army. It's not for everyone.

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Re: Veterans Thread

Postby MichiganHoosier » Sun Dec 17, 2017 8:35 am

AJordan wrote:
NavyNuke wrote:Admitted to Michigan with 25K a year. Asked financial aid office how this would be affected by my being 100% GI Bill eligible, and they said the scholarship would be applied to my account and refunded to me NTE the estimated COL (which for this year they have at 19.5K).
Has this been others' experience with GI Bill + scholarship? Sounds way too good to be true. Earlier in this thread people were saying GI Bill is last payer after all scholarships have been applied. Anybody know for sure how this all works? Thanks in advance!


Anecdotal so take it fwiw. Michigan seems to be making a push to get more vets in their class. I have been contacted by a UM 3L vet even though A) at this point I'm nothing but an LSAT score (one above their 75th but still...) and B) I'm not even applying until next cycle. The student who contacted me specifically stated that UM was trying to reach out to increase the number of vets at the school. Couple that with your anecdote here as well as the fact that UM's admissions office has one of the better reputations and it almost makes a bit of sense that they know what they're talking about and specifically moving vet scholarships in that manner to facilitate more vets going to Michigan. If so, that's phenomenal news.


This is good to hear. As a native Michigander, I was already planning on EDing for the 2018-2019 cycle. Hopefully the 3.3x doesn't hold me back too much. Congrats, NavyNuke!

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Re: Veterans Thread

Postby AJordan » Sun Dec 17, 2017 9:16 am

MrLions wrote:I'm interested in enlisting in the Army after graduation in May 2018 for a 2-yr active duty contract, and then using the post 9/11 GI bill to help pay for law school. Would I be able to do that by only taking off two academic years, or would the 2-yr active duty, plus basic and AIT, extend a bit beyond August 2020?


You really should have this conversation with a recruiter, not the internet. I, and surely others here, would be willing to give you feedback, but the right way to do it is to go talk to a recruiter, get your head around what it actually means to join the Army, and then come ask some clarifying questions here. We may not be able to provide the best, current, information - that's what the recruiter is for - but we can sniff out BS and help you make sure you're at least going into an enlistment with your eyes open.
Last edited by AJordan on Sat Jan 27, 2018 10:07 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Veterans Thread

Postby KPUSN07 » Sun Dec 17, 2017 10:32 am

MrLions wrote:I'm interested in enlisting in the Army after graduation in May 2018 for a 2-yr active duty contract, and then using the post 9/11 GI bill to help pay for law school. Would I be able to do that by only taking off two academic years, or would the 2-yr active duty, plus basic and AIT, extend a bit beyond August 2020?


DO NOT JUST ENLIST IN THE ARMY TO ATTEND LAW SCHOOL - Ensure you know what you're getting yourself into.

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Re: Veterans Thread

Postby Wipfelder » Sun Dec 17, 2017 1:02 pm

KPUSN07 wrote:
MrLions wrote:I'm interested in enlisting in the Army after graduation in May 2018 for a 2-yr active duty contract, and then using the post 9/11 GI bill to help pay for law school. Would I be able to do that by only taking off two academic years, or would the 2-yr active duty, plus basic and AIT, extend a bit beyond August 2020?


DO NOT JUST ENLIST IN THE ARMY TO ATTEND LAW SCHOOL - Ensure you know what you're getting yourself into.


I disagree with this. Its an excellent way to pay for law school (and then some) and is pretty easy. The vast majority of people who join either have no idea what they are getting into, or are doing it for money (I.e. health insurance and stable income). Worst case, you kinda just hate it for a while.

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Re: Veterans Thread

Postby BlendedUnicorn » Sun Dec 17, 2017 1:33 pm

Wipfelder wrote:
KPUSN07 wrote:
MrLions wrote:I'm interested in enlisting in the Army after graduation in May 2018 for a 2-yr active duty contract, and then using the post 9/11 GI bill to help pay for law school. Would I be able to do that by only taking off two academic years, or would the 2-yr active duty, plus basic and AIT, extend a bit beyond August 2020?


DO NOT JUST ENLIST IN THE ARMY TO ATTEND LAW SCHOOL - Ensure you know what you're getting yourself into.


I disagree with this. Its an excellent way to pay for law school (and then some) and is pretty easy. The vast majority of people who join either have no idea what they are getting into, or are doing it for money (I.e. health insurance and stable income). Worst case, you kinda just hate it for a while.


That is definitely not the worst case. Also, don’t you need 3 years to get 100% GI bill?

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Re: Veterans Thread

Postby haus » Sun Dec 17, 2017 1:43 pm

I admit that it has been a long time since I served, and I was not in the Army, but my memory of short service contracts (sub 4 years) is that they were usually limited to fields such as infantry. Also, back in the day, all enlistments were for 8 years, so the shorter your active service, the longer your reserve service. In most cases the reserve portion of one's service could be served in the inactive reserves. When things are going smoothly inactive service does not have much of any impact on one's life. When things go bad, inactive service can dump your life upside down.

ETA: Also I seem to recall that various benefits, including educational, were reduced for short tours. If nothing else, make sure you know what you are signing up for.
Last edited by haus on Sun Dec 17, 2017 1:58 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Veterans Thread

Postby MrLions » Sun Dec 17, 2017 1:44 pm

BlendedUnicorn wrote:
Wipfelder wrote:
KPUSN07 wrote:
MrLions wrote:I'm interested in enlisting in the Army after graduation in May 2018 for a 2-yr active duty contract, and then using the post 9/11 GI bill to help pay for law school. Would I be able to do that by only taking off two academic years, or would the 2-yr active duty, plus basic and AIT, extend a bit beyond August 2020?


DO NOT JUST ENLIST IN THE ARMY TO ATTEND LAW SCHOOL - Ensure you know what you're getting yourself into.


I disagree with this. Its an excellent way to pay for law school (and then some) and is pretty easy. The vast majority of people who join either have no idea what they are getting into, or are doing it for money (I.e. health insurance and stable income). Worst case, you kinda just hate it for a while.


That is definitely not the worst case. Also, don’t you need 3 years to get 100% GI bill?


Yeah, I guess it's 36 months for 100% GI Bill. Anyone have experience as a 27D - paralegal specialist? Seems like solid paralegal work, non-combat role. People take 2-3 years off to paralegal anyway. Might as well, at the same time, do the following: serve your country, bank ~20k/ year, make yourself more employable for after law school, get full tuition and fees at most top schools, and qualify for BAH payments during law school (4K/month in NYC)

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Re: Veterans Thread

Postby Wipfelder » Sun Dec 17, 2017 2:02 pm

BlendedUnicorn wrote:
Wipfelder wrote:
KPUSN07 wrote:
MrLions wrote:I'm interested in enlisting in the Army after graduation in May 2018 for a 2-yr active duty contract, and then using the post 9/11 GI bill to help pay for law school. Would I be able to do that by only taking off two academic years, or would the 2-yr active duty, plus basic and AIT, extend a bit beyond August 2020?


DO NOT JUST ENLIST IN THE ARMY TO ATTEND LAW SCHOOL - Ensure you know what you're getting yourself into.


I disagree with this. Its an excellent way to pay for law school (and then some) and is pretty easy. The vast majority of people who join either have no idea what they are getting into, or are doing it for money (I.e. health insurance and stable income). Worst case, you kinda just hate it for a while.


That is definitely not the worst case. Also, don’t you need 3 years to get 100% GI bill?


Yea, but if you stay away from SF/Airborne Ranger/SEAL contracts, your exposure to "worst case" is really almost nil. The vast majority of people who served in the last 17 years saw no combat, and were not in danger.

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Re: Veterans Thread

Postby MichiganHoosier » Sun Dec 17, 2017 2:42 pm

MrLions wrote:
BlendedUnicorn wrote:
Wipfelder wrote:
KPUSN07 wrote:
MrLions wrote:I'm interested in enlisting in the Army after graduation in May 2018 for a 2-yr active duty contract, and then using the post 9/11 GI bill to help pay for law school. Would I be able to do that by only taking off two academic years, or would the 2-yr active duty, plus basic and AIT, extend a bit beyond August 2020?


DO NOT JUST ENLIST IN THE ARMY TO ATTEND LAW SCHOOL - Ensure you know what you're getting yourself into.


I disagree with this. Its an excellent way to pay for law school (and then some) and is pretty easy. The vast majority of people who join either have no idea what they are getting into, or are doing it for money (I.e. health insurance and stable income). Worst case, you kinda just hate it for a while.


That is definitely not the worst case. Also, don’t you need 3 years to get 100% GI bill?


Yeah, I guess it's 36 months for 100% GI Bill. Anyone have experience as a 27D - paralegal specialist? Seems like solid paralegal work, non-combat role. People take 2-3 years off to paralegal anyway. Might as well, at the same time, do the following: serve your country, bank ~20k/ year, make yourself more employable for after law school, get full tuition and fees at most top schools, and qualify for BAH payments during law school (4K/month in NYC)


All fair points. I think everyone gets caught up in the whole "don't enlist just to pay for law school", but I would bet 80% of people join the military to pay for something (pay bills, pay off debt, or to just have a job with benefits). No offense though, but I don't think employers are going to be going crazy over a dude who was an Army paralegal. Of course you're going to get the "bump" of being a veteran, but from what I hear that bump varies significantly based off of your experiences within the Army. If serving your country is a big reason you're doing this, I don't think you'll find that satisfaction as a paralegal.

Here's my advice....so take it for what it's worth...do something cool. You're going to join the Army. It is a once in a lifetime experience. Take a good look at all the MOS's available to you. I'd imagine you're going to have a GT score that should qualify you for any job. Now, I'm not saying go sign up for an 18X contract or an Option 40 (although airborne rangers are pretty badass..), but seriously look and see what is out there.

If you do decide to go the 27D route, you will be in the best position possible if you are at all interested in the Army's FLEP program. With all that said, just make sure you weigh the pros and cons of joining. Your life is very much controlled while you're in, and you have the chance to deploy. You could deploy and die/become disabled and never go to law school. Is that worth the risk? That is for you to decide. However, deployments do vary. Within five months of arriving to my unit, I was in Helmand Province (granted, I went full retard and chose infantry). I've done multiple deployments while my peers who I went through a lot of Army training with haven't done any. Overall, the deployment tempo is down, but if you follow current events it seems that we are going to potentially increase our involvement in certain regions of the world.

If you have any questions, feel free to PM me. I went through OCS after graduating, so if that is anything you're interested in, I'd be happy to let you know my experiences.

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Re: Veterans Thread

Postby KPUSN07 » Sun Dec 17, 2017 6:17 pm

I was not trying to be negative with my post - but if you're going to enlist and not do it for the right, primary reason - service to the country - I'm not sure it's a great idea - those three years (if that is how long it is) will be long, grueling, and you might be miserable... just enlist for the right reasons and law school will fall in your lap when ready to leave

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Re: Veterans Thread

Postby Wipfelder » Sun Dec 17, 2017 6:23 pm

KPUSN07 wrote:I was not trying to be negative with my post - but if you're going to enlist and not do it for the right, primary reason - service to the country - I'm not sure it's a great idea - those three years (if that is how long it is) will be long, grueling, and you might be miserable... just enlist for the right reasons and law school will fall in your lap when ready to leave


I'd say almost no one enlists for that reason primarily.

The military is easier than many professions, but even if it is "grueling" to you, you are still gonna make more money (when you count the GI Bill) than is possible in any other career field as a recent college graduate. Just the compensation alone makes it a good proposition.

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Re: Veterans Thread

Postby haus » Sun Dec 17, 2017 7:01 pm

Wipfelder wrote:
KPUSN07 wrote:I was not trying to be negative with my post - but if you're going to enlist and not do it for the right, primary reason - service to the country - I'm not sure it's a great idea - those three years (if that is how long it is) will be long, grueling, and you might be miserable... just enlist for the right reasons and law school will fall in your lap when ready to leave


I'd say almost no one enlists for that reason primarily.

The military is easier than many professions, but even if it is "grueling" to you, you are still gonna make more money (when you count the GI Bill) than is possible in any other career field as a recent college graduate. Just the compensation alone makes it a good proposition.

Pay must be up, the best year I had for income (E-4) was ~$14,500. Given the over the top hours I worked, I would have done better financially working at a Taco Bell.

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Re: Veterans Thread

Postby Wipfelder » Sun Dec 17, 2017 9:00 pm

haus wrote:
Wipfelder wrote:
KPUSN07 wrote:I was not trying to be negative with my post - but if you're going to enlist and not do it for the right, primary reason - service to the country - I'm not sure it's a great idea - those three years (if that is how long it is) will be long, grueling, and you might be miserable... just enlist for the right reasons and law school will fall in your lap when ready to leave


I'd say almost no one enlists for that reason primarily.

The military is easier than many professions, but even if it is "grueling" to you, you are still gonna make more money (when you count the GI Bill) than is possible in any other career field as a recent college graduate. Just the compensation alone makes it a good proposition.

Pay must be up, the best year I had for income (E-4) was ~$14,500. Given the over the top hours I worked, I would have done better financially working at a Taco Bell.


An E-4 makes about 70k a year when you count housing and stuff, but their taxable income is low. A "modern" E4 most assuredly made more than 14,500 in income, if you count housing, uniform allowance, etc.. But yea, 14,500 was about E-4 pay in 2001, (you're dating yourself a bit Haus!) base pay has doubled since then.

Once you add the Post 9/11 GI Bill, though, then you really make out like a bandit.

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Re: Veterans Thread

Postby haus » Sun Dec 17, 2017 9:19 pm

(I got out in the mid 90s... I am ancient... :D )

I always get a chuckle out of the reference to 'housing' benefit.

When I was first made it to the fleet, I was put into a squad bay that had been condemned over three years before I had arrived. I shared one room with just under 30 other people (we were the short side of the barracks) the wooden window frames were so rotted out that I could find gaps were my arm could fit through almost up to my elbow.

Oh, and I received a COLA (Hawaii), if memory serves on the 1st and 15th I got an extra $2.50 to offset the higher cost. When it came time to consider re-enlistment, it seemed clear that sticking around was not the path to riches.

P.S.

The old school GI Bill sucked compared to what is in place now.

edit: modified to add the P.S., and again to fix one of what is likely many typos...
Last edited by haus on Sun Dec 17, 2017 9:28 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Veterans Thread

Postby Wipfelder » Sun Dec 17, 2017 9:25 pm

haus wrote:(I got out in the mid 90s... I am ancient... :D )

I always get a chuckle out of the reference to 'housing' benefit.

When I was first made it to the fleet, I was put into a squad bay that had been condemned over three years before I had arrived. I shared one room with just under 30 other people (we were the short side of the barracks) the wooden window frames were so rotted out that I could find gaps were my arm could fit through almost up to my elbow.

Oh, and I received a COLA (Hawaii), if memory serves on the 1st and 15th I got an extra $2.50 to offset the higher cost. When it came time to consider re-emlistment, it seemed clear that sticking around was not the path to riches.


Man, pre-GWOT was a different world, the cash is flowin' these days. #thanksOsama

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Re: Veterans Thread

Postby UVA2B » Sun Dec 17, 2017 9:38 pm

Wipfelder wrote:An E-4 makes about 70k a year when you count housing and stuff, but their taxable income is low. A "modern" E4 most assuredly made more than 14,500 in income, if you count housing, uniform allowance, etc.. But yea, 14,500 was about E-4 pay in 2001, (you're dating yourself a bit Haus!) base pay has doubled since then.

Once you add the Post 9/11 GI Bill, though, then you really make out like a bandit.


Not exactly sure how you're pulling this number, but it's pretty high unless we're talking really high COL places. If you put the E-4 with dependents in NYC, they're pulling approximately that much. You can also get there if stationed somewhere COLA comes into play, but I am working under the assumption that this hypothetical E-4 is stationed INCONUS. Forget about it if they're in any of the more likely duty stations. Unless you're including other non-compensation benefits that I'm completely unaware of, the more typical dollar compensation for an E-4 getting BAH is probably closer to nominally $50k, probably a little less. I still think an E-4 is doing just fine for compensation, but that number is a little generous unless you're thinking of something I'm blatantly missing outside of base pay, BAH, and BAS (I chose not to include things like uniform allowances that are a one time per year addition, and amount to <$1000 every year).

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Re: Veterans Thread

Postby Wipfelder » Sun Dec 17, 2017 9:55 pm

UVA2B wrote:
Wipfelder wrote:An E-4 makes about 70k a year when you count housing and stuff, but their taxable income is low. A "modern" E4 most assuredly made more than 14,500 in income, if you count housing, uniform allowance, etc.. But yea, 14,500 was about E-4 pay in 2001, (you're dating yourself a bit Haus!) base pay has doubled since then.

Once you add the Post 9/11 GI Bill, though, then you really make out like a bandit.


Not exactly sure how you're pulling this number, but it's pretty high unless we're talking really high COL places. If you put the E-4 with dependents in NYC, they're pulling approximately that much. You can also get there if stationed somewhere COLA comes into play, but I am working under the assumption that this hypothetical E-4 is stationed INCONUS. Forget about it if they're in any of the more likely duty stations. Unless you're including other non-compensation benefits that I'm completely unaware of, the more typical dollar compensation for an E-4 getting BAH is probably closer to nominally $50k, probably a little less. I still think an E-4 is doing just fine for compensation, but that number is a little generous unless you're thinking of something I'm blatantly missing outside of base pay, BAH, and BAS (I chose not to include things like uniform allowances that are a one time per year addition, and amount to <$1000 every year).


Yea, I added uniform allowances, BAS, BAH, and the saved tax money, and also put in a high COL zip code (I did Chicago, as that is where I am living). So, in a low-COL place, it'd prolly be about 55k-60k, but then, you are living in a cheap area.

It is still better than what the average person makes out of college: http://time.com/money/collection-post/3829776/heres-what-the-average-grad-makes-right-out-of-college/

Either way, the real cash money is in the GI Bill afterwards. Staying in the military for the money is probably crazy (especially now that they've modified the retirement), but short term I think its a solid move, even if you don't like it.

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Re: Veterans Thread

Postby BlendedUnicorn » Sun Dec 17, 2017 10:36 pm

Most people right out of college probably aren’t married in which case you’re talking about a dorm room in a Korean War era barracks full of a bunch of angry young men with a shared shitter and communal cleaning requirements instead of BAS. My total comp as an E4 (or E5) wasn’t close to 50k.

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Re: Veterans Thread

Postby Dcc617 » Mon Dec 18, 2017 12:12 am

Also consider going officer. If you do OCS then you’re still eligible for 100% GI bill. Also you make a ton more money, have a much much better lifestyle, and get good leadership experience. Assuming that you’re not just going in this with the idea to do as little work as possible.

Also, don’t think that you have to want to serve your country to join. That’s basically meaningless nowadays. If you’re professional, competent, have integrity, and put your soldiers first then you’ll be one of the best leaders your soldiers will ever have.

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Re: Veterans Thread

Postby Boulevard » Mon Dec 18, 2017 11:59 am

Hey guys,

I've seen this hit on TLS and a couple other sites, but is there any consenus about a diversity statement for military service?

I'm a white male from a middle class background and went to a state school so the diversity statement would have to relate to military experience. Is it a detriment to my application if I submit without a diversity statement (think H/S/C/C/N)?

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Re: Veterans Thread

Postby Dcc617 » Mon Dec 18, 2017 12:13 pm

Boulevard wrote:Hey guys,

I've seen this hit on TLS and a couple other sites, but is there any consenus about a diversity statement for military service?

I'm a white male from a middle class background and went to a state school so the diversity statement would have to relate to military experience. Is it a detriment to my application if I submit without a diversity statement (think H/S/C/C/N)?


I did not do a diversity statement. However, I played up the military experience in my personal essay. And it was all over my resume.

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Re: Veterans Thread

Postby MrLions » Mon Dec 18, 2017 1:07 pm

Thanks so much for all your help and advice! I met with my recruiter today and took a practice ASVAB (scored 97. Idk if I missed a question or if 3% of people score perfect.)

I have a question about the Yellow Ribbon Program. How are benefits different under 100% GI Bill and 80% GI BIll? Some law school sites have said (i think?) that you need to qualify for 100% GI Bill in order to participate in YRP, meaning that the 80% coverage you get after 2 years is significantly less than 80% of the full benefit of serving 3 years. Is this true? Thanks again.



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