Warning to all 0L's

(Applications Advice, Letters of Recommendation . . . )
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Nicholasnickynic
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Re: Warning to all 0L's

Postby Nicholasnickynic » Mon Oct 17, 2011 9:31 pm

Mal Reynolds wrote:
shoeshine wrote:Make a poll:

Worst thread ever?
1. Yes
2. Definitely
3. Killself


Is is too late to vote killself?


+1000 for avatar

Mal Reynolds
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Re: Warning to all 0L's

Postby Mal Reynolds » Mon Oct 17, 2011 9:46 pm

Nicholasnickynic wrote:
Mal Reynolds wrote:
shoeshine wrote:Make a poll:

Worst thread ever?
1. Yes
2. Definitely
3. Killself


Is is too late to vote killself?


+1000 for avatar


That's the way to save this thread: Firefly quotes!

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mattviphky
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Re: Warning to all 0L's

Postby mattviphky » Mon Oct 17, 2011 9:51 pm

op, your solution seems a tad drastic. :wink:

CynicusRex
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Re: Warning to all 0L's

Postby CynicusRex » Mon Oct 17, 2011 9:53 pm

typ3 wrote:
Richie Tenenbaum wrote:I'm not feeding the troll either. I'm just saying that a JD will open doors to you in business. It's not the same as an MBA but it's not the same as looking for a job with a masters in Latvian folklore.


No, it won't. A JD does not open doors, other law students are lousy connections (many of them are right out of undergrad or a year or two of retail work after undergrad), many people in business have a natural antipathy towards lawyers, and you learn very few skills that help with business.

CynicusRex
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Re: Warning to all 0L's

Postby CynicusRex » Mon Oct 17, 2011 9:58 pm

Schola wrote:I'm sure the list could go on, but these aren't the issues at stake here. The question is whether it is a bad idea to go to T14, or even YHS, even w/ a full ride.
. . .
I have yet to see any proof that YHS, or even CCN, or perhaps even T14 graduates are setting themselves up for a penurious life. Sure, some might be pushed into public interest when they wanted to go private, but w/ generous loan forgiveness programs, this will still result in a relatively comfortable lifestyle (unless, of course, you need 3 homes and a 120 foot yacht to be comfortable).

If anyone has proof that a degree from YHS, CCN, or any T14 school will likely, or possibly, lead to unemployment, please share. If not, let's just end this thread.


That's not "the question"; CCN and YHS give out a miniscule amount of full rides. You're reducing a question that is an important one for 99% of prospective law students to one that only applies to 1% of them.

Speaking as someone who actually practices, YHS and you'll probably be safe, but anything under that and you're taking a big risk. In NYC there are plenty of NYU and Columbia grads, for example, unable to find work. Go further down on the T14 list and it gets even worse; a Georgetown JD is worth very little these days, my firm gets Georgetown people applying for jobs and their resumes are sad; contract work, doc review, volunteer work, etc.

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Richie Tenenbaum
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Re: Warning to all 0L's

Postby Richie Tenenbaum » Mon Oct 17, 2011 9:58 pm

CynicusRex wrote:
typ3 wrote:
Richie Tenenbaum wrote:I'm not feeding the troll either. I'm just saying that a JD will open doors to you in business. It's not the same as an MBA but it's not the same as looking for a job with a masters in Latvian folklore.


No, it won't. A JD does not open doors, other law students are lousy connections (many of them are right out of undergrad or a year or two of retail work after undergrad), many people in business have a natural antipathy towards lawyers, and you learn very few skills that help with business.


Fix your quote plz. The above is not me.

cattleprod
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Re: Warning to all 0L's

Postby cattleprod » Mon Oct 17, 2011 10:43 pm

typ3 wrote:
Richie Tenenbaum wrote:
Please leave this thread. You're not helping.


I'm not feeding the troll either. I'm just saying that a JD will open doors to you in business. It's not the same as an MBA but it's not the same as looking for a job with a masters in Latvian folklore.


Actually a JD is just about a sure thing for slamming doors shut on you.
After law school is over, if you apply for any non-JD job you are considered over qualified. The first reaction of the hiring manager is that you will continue looking for a JD job and will bolt as soon as you find one. So why take the risk? They won't hire a JD for a non-JD position. Even paralegal jobs are often off limits for JDs.

After law school your law degree has a shelf life of about 6-12 months. If you have not obtained JD employment within that time period, then your JD is now worthless. Once you have that gap on your resume working at Starbucks or Target, then no law firm will consider you. After 12 months there is a batch of fresh meat coming out of the law schools without the stench of fail.

There is no backlog of law grads from 2009-2011 that needs to be absorbed first by the legal profession. Those people that didn't obtain employment are out and will never have a chance except by doing their own solo practice.

The OP is 100% correct. We need about 150 law schools to just go out of business. There is no need for 45,000 new lawyers per year.
Last edited by cattleprod on Mon Oct 17, 2011 11:05 pm, edited 2 times in total.

cattleprod
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Re: Warning to all 0L's

Postby cattleprod » Mon Oct 17, 2011 11:03 pm

Richie Tenenbaum wrote:I agree with you that I would be afraid of going to most of the T14 at sticker. But why don't you address my points when it's a full ride @ a T14?


What percentage of students get a full ride @ a T14?

There are 3-4 issues that I think most people can agree on for this debate.

1) Law school student loan debt is out of control with most people at $100,000+.
2) TT, TTT and TTTT are useless these days.
3) Even T1 (20-50) is high risk unless you are in the top 10% of your class.
4) T14 (non YHS) is risky if you are below median and paying full sticker.

I would agree that full ride @ a T14 is likely worth taking a shot at the Biglaw lottery ticket.
But what percentage of the 45,000 to 50,000 starting 0Ls are in that category each year?
How many keep that full ride after the first year? 200? 300?

It is a VERY small number and likely not relevant to the overall message to 0Ls. The legal profession is in turmoil and not worth the risk of $100,000+ in debt that cannot be discharged in bankruptcy.

cattleprod
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Re: Warning to all 0L's

Postby cattleprod » Mon Oct 17, 2011 11:21 pm

CynicusRex wrote:Speaking as someone who actually practices, YHS and you'll probably be safe, but anything under that and you're taking a big risk. In NYC there are plenty of NYU and Columbia grads, for example, unable to find work. Go further down on the T14 list and it gets even worse; a Georgetown JD is worth very little these days, my firm gets Georgetown people applying for jobs and their resumes are sad; contract work, doc review, volunteer work, etc.


CynicusRex nailed it.

We used to consider T14 to be safe. If you could get into one of those schools then you are guaranteed the access to the top levels of the legal hierarchy. But this seems to no longer hold true. With the massive changes to the profession and the economy overall, the only safe schools are YHS. With the other schools in the T14 you better be in the top half of your class. There are plenty of T14 grads on the doc review circuit these days.

The economy will eventually improve, but the changes to the profession are here to stay. Outsourcing is tearing up law firms and it is only going to get worse.

Companies are refusing to pay biglaw for the work of first and second year law associates.
This was in the WSJ today.
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB1000142 ... 75324.html

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BackToTheOldHouse
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Re: Warning to all 0L's

Postby BackToTheOldHouse » Mon Oct 17, 2011 11:42 pm

kwais wrote:OP makes good points and is not at all absolutist

for further support of his/her well thought out position, watch this video
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9PXjgbEu-T4

TITCR

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Yeshia90
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Re: Warning to all 0L's

Postby Yeshia90 » Tue Oct 18, 2011 12:13 am

cattleprod wrote:
CynicusRex wrote:Speaking as someone who actually practices, YHS and you'll probably be safe, but anything under that and you're taking a big risk. In NYC there are plenty of NYU and Columbia grads, for example, unable to find work. Go further down on the T14 list and it gets even worse; a Georgetown JD is worth very little these days, my firm gets Georgetown people applying for jobs and their resumes are sad; contract work, doc review, volunteer work, etc.


CynicusRex nailed it.

We used to consider T14 to be safe. If you could get into one of those schools then you are guaranteed the access to the top levels of the legal hierarchy. But this seems to no longer hold true. With the massive changes to the profession and the economy overall, the only safe schools are YHS. With the other schools in the T14 you better be in the top half of your class. There are plenty of T14 grads on the doc review circuit these days.

The economy will eventually improve, but the changes to the profession are here to stay. Outsourcing is tearing up law firms and it is only going to get worse.

Companies are refusing to pay biglaw for the work of first and second year law associates.
This was in the WSJ today.
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB1000142 ... 75324.html


Feel free to disregard anything this guy says.

cattleprod wrote:If Obama wins re-election, the economy is phucked and expect there to be plenty of no-offers.
If the Republican wins, the economy will improve dramatically for the class of 2013 everyone will get the job of their dreams.

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Re: Warning to all 0L's

Postby cattleprod » Tue Oct 18, 2011 12:50 am

Yeshia90 wrote:Feel free to disregard anything this guy says.

cattleprod wrote:If Obama wins re-election, the economy is phucked and expect there to be plenty of no-offers.
If the Republican wins, the economy will improve dramatically for the class of 2013 everyone will get the job of their dreams.


So writing the occasional sarcastic post makes all following statements null and void? Interesting standard you live by.

My comments, and those expressed by others, on the reality of the legal job market should not be surprising. The shock is that so many on this forum want to pretend that it isn't true. Do you really think we are making this up? Do you really think you have a shot at a real JD job these days with average grades from an average school?

If you want to put your head in the toilet and ignore the brutal reality of life after law school, that is up to you. Enjoy your $150,000+ in student loans. I see a bright future for you with hair nets and a name tag in the food service industry.

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Yeshia90
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Re: Warning to all 0L's

Postby Yeshia90 » Tue Oct 18, 2011 12:51 am

cattleprod wrote:
Yeshia90 wrote:Feel free to disregard anything this guy says.

cattleprod wrote:If Obama wins re-election, the economy is phucked and expect there to be plenty of no-offers.
If the Republican wins, the economy will improve dramatically for the class of 2013 everyone will get the job of their dreams.


So writing the occasional sarcastic post makes all following statements null and void? Interesting standard you live by.

My comments, and those expressed by others, on the reality of the legal job market should not be surprising. The shock is that so many on this forum want to pretend that it isn't true. Do you really think we are making this up? Do you really think you have a shot at a real JD job these days with average grades from an average school?

If you want to put your head in the toilet and ignore the brutal reality of life after law school, that is up to you. Enjoy your $150,000+ in student loans. I see a bright future for you with hair nets and a name tag in the food service industry.


There's one thing about saying don't go to a second or third tier law school. There's another saying don't go to HYS at full scholarship. One is a prudent observation, the other is patently ridiculous.

MrAnon
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Re: Warning to all 0L's

Postby MrAnon » Tue Oct 18, 2011 1:00 am

Yeshia90 wrote:
cattleprod wrote:
Yeshia90 wrote:Feel free to disregard anything this guy says.

cattleprod wrote:If Obama wins re-election, the economy is phucked and expect there to be plenty of no-offers.
If the Republican wins, the economy will improve dramatically for the class of 2013 everyone will get the job of their dreams.


So writing the occasional sarcastic post makes all following statements null and void? Interesting standard you live by.

My comments, and those expressed by others, on the reality of the legal job market should not be surprising. The shock is that so many on this forum want to pretend that it isn't true. Do you really think we are making this up? Do you really think you have a shot at a real JD job these days with average grades from an average school?

If you want to put your head in the toilet and ignore the brutal reality of life after law school, that is up to you. Enjoy your $150,000+ in student loans. I see a bright future for you with hair nets and a name tag in the food service industry.


There's one thing about saying don't go to a second or third tier law school. There's another saying don't go to HYS at full scholarship. One is a prudent observation, the other is patently ridiculous.


What makes it ridiculous? Conventional wisdom? Conventional wisdom went out the door when the economy crashed. A lot of ideas that worked for 15 years no longer work though many interested groups like law school administrators are struggling to keep them dancing in people's minds.

shoeshine
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Re: Warning to all 0L's

Postby shoeshine » Tue Oct 18, 2011 1:10 am

I really wish everyone who was negative just to be negative about the current legal economy would just GTFO TLS. We are all aware of the state of the economy. No need to rehash this shit everyday.

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birdlaw117
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Re: Warning to all 0L's

Postby birdlaw117 » Tue Oct 18, 2011 8:45 am

shoeshine wrote:I really wish everyone who was negative just to be negative about the current legal economy would just GTFO TLS. We are all aware of the state of the economy. No need to rehash this shit everyday.

But if we don't rehash it every day, how will we know when the legal economy is all better???

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Richie Tenenbaum
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Re: Warning to all 0L's

Postby Richie Tenenbaum » Tue Oct 18, 2011 9:22 am

MrAnon wrote:
Yeshia90 wrote:
cattleprod wrote:
So writing the occasional sarcastic post makes all following statements null and void? Interesting standard you live by.

My comments, and those expressed by others, on the reality of the legal job market should not be surprising. The shock is that so many on this forum want to pretend that it isn't true. Do you really think we are making this up? Do you really think you have a shot at a real JD job these days with average grades from an average school?

If you want to put your head in the toilet and ignore the brutal reality of life after law school, that is up to you. Enjoy your $150,000+ in student loans. I see a bright future for you with hair nets and a name tag in the food service industry.


There's one thing about saying don't go to a second or third tier law school. There's another saying don't go to HYS at full scholarship. One is a prudent observation, the other is patently ridiculous.


What makes it ridiculous? Conventional wisdom? Conventional wisdom went out the door when the economy crashed. A lot of ideas that worked for 15 years no longer work though many interested groups like law school administrators are struggling to keep them dancing in people's minds.


Lol, no. It's not conventional wisdom, it's the fact that the vast majority of people who want biglaw can get it. I'm operating off the reality of ITE when I say that HYS is not a bad choice for people who want biglaw, and neither is ccn at full ride.

cattleprod
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Re: Warning to all 0L's

Postby cattleprod » Tue Oct 18, 2011 11:29 am

Yeshia90 wrote:There's one thing about saying don't go to a second or third tier law school. There's another saying don't go to HYS at full scholarship. One is a prudent observation, the other is patently ridiculous.


I didn't say that. In fact, if you look back at what I wrote you will see that I said HYS at full scholarship makes sense. But it is irrelevant to this discussion started by the OP as a warning to 0Ls. The number of people on a full ride at HYS is tiny, perhaps measured in the dozens (compared to 45,000 0Ls each year).

The reality is that most law students are paying full sticker at YHS. Even full sticker at YHS is likely going to work out because most of the class has plenty of options.

5 years ago the rest of the T14 were also considered safe schools even at full sticker. The market produced enough jobs that even below median at T14 would likely result in sufficient income and prospects to handle the full sticker debt load.

But this is now and the market of 5 years ago has shrunk dramatically. Biglaw has cut new associate positions. The numbers are different everywhere, but nobody would be shocked if the actual number is 50% fewer first year associates compared to 5 years ago. That means that T14 (non YHS) just became a lot more of a risk. Anything below median is on the bubble.

The OP was 100% correct in his warning to 0Ls. The message was not to anyone on a full ride. Graduating from law school with $0.00 in student loan debt is a fine place to be in your late 20s. But that is not where most fresh lawyers are. Most have a huge payment to make each month based on inflated law school tuition. 90%-95% of new lawyers are not making $100,000+ and never will.

Say you have $150,000 in student loans at an interest rate of 6.8 percent, with a repayment term of 15 years. Your monthly payment would be about $1300. If you hit the Biglaw lottery that is manageable. If you end up where most of lawyers start ($40,000 to $60,000) that is a huge bill each month. If you end up where the rest of lawyers start (doc review) then you will need medication to deal with the anxiety.

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Indifferent
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Re: Warning to all 0L's

Postby Indifferent » Tue Oct 18, 2011 12:56 pm

cattleprod wrote:90%-95% of new lawyers are not making $100,000+ and never will.

No. Hard data makes you wrong.

Image

tlstlstls73
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Re: Warning to all 0L's

Postby tlstlstls73 » Tue Oct 18, 2011 1:19 pm

Whatever. Whiners like OP are just mad because law school isn't a golden ticket for imaginationless lemmings who don't know what to do with their lives anymore. Boo hoo, sorry. If you are willing to make big bets and take big risks, and are prepared for striking out and being 200k in debt, you can go outside T14 and roll the dice. I did, and it worked out for me. It will always work out for some people---and winning the lottery sure feels nice.

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LAWSCHOOLREALITY
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Re: Warning to all 0L's

Postby LAWSCHOOLREALITY » Tue Oct 18, 2011 1:26 pm

Indifferent wrote:
cattleprod wrote:90%-95% of new lawyers are not making $100,000+ and never will.

No. Hard data makes you wrong.

Image


You forgot this part.

"Note: The graph above is based on 18,398 salaries. A few salaries above $200,000 are excluded for clarity. The left-hand peaks of the graph reflect salaries of $40,000 to $65,000, which collectively accounted for about 48% of reported salaries. The right-hand peak shows that salaries of $160,000 accounted for about 18% of reported salaries. However, more complete salary coverage for jobs at large law firms heightens this peak and diminishes the left-hand peaks — and shows that the unadjusted mean overstates the average starting salary by about 9%. Nonetheless, as both the arithmetic mean and the adjusted mean show, relatively few salaries are close to either mean figure. For purposes of this graph, all reported salaries were rounded to the nearest $5,000."

Less than half of grads from that class reported data. The NALP also reported that 25% of that class is only working part time legal jobs. Add on top of that that the unemployment rates of that class are at an all time high for law school grads. Who do you think is more likely to respond to such a survey, the people making 160k or the ones making 30k? If that chart is truly representative of salaries for that class, then about 8,000 members of that class are making > 160k, which of course is not true at all.

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LAWSCHOOLREALITY
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Re: Warning to all 0L's

Postby LAWSCHOOLREALITY » Tue Oct 18, 2011 1:36 pm

tlstlstls73 wrote:Whatever. Whiners like OP are just mad because law school isn't a golden ticket for imaginationless lemmings who don't know what to do with their lives anymore. Boo hoo, sorry. If you are willing to make big bets and take big risks, and are prepared for striking out and being 200k in debt, you can go outside T14 and roll the dice. I did, and it worked out for me. It will always work out for some people---and winning the lottery sure feels nice.


You're assuming it didn't work out for the OP. You're assuming the OP went to a TTT at sticker, does doc review if has a legal job at all, lives with his parents, and completely regrets law school. You're assuming the OP also is subscribed to Third Tier Reality, Above the Law, and JDU. What if the OP has sound legal employment with a biglaw firm? What if, like I said I was, truly speaking on behalf of the legal community? Judging from your post you sound like a newly minted JD. Give it a few years, work your way up the ladder, then come back to me. Just hope you don't get laid off within the next five months and realize how bad it is out there when you're just another face in the crowd.

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NYC Law
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Re: Warning to all 0L's

Postby NYC Law » Tue Oct 18, 2011 1:43 pm

Image

tlstlstls73
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Re: Warning to all 0L's

Postby tlstlstls73 » Tue Oct 18, 2011 1:44 pm

LAWSCHOOLREALITY wrote:
tlstlstls73 wrote:Whatever. Whiners like OP are just mad because law school isn't a golden ticket for imaginationless lemmings who don't know what to do with their lives anymore. Boo hoo, sorry. If you are willing to make big bets and take big risks, and are prepared for striking out and being 200k in debt, you can go outside T14 and roll the dice. I did, and it worked out for me. It will always work out for some people---and winning the lottery sure feels nice.


You're assuming it didn't work out for the OP. You're assuming the OP went to a TTT at sticker, does doc review if has a legal job at all, lives with his parents, and completely regrets law school. You're assuming the OP also is subscribed to Third Tier Reality, Above the Law, and JDU. What if the OP has sound legal employment with a biglaw firm? What if, like I said I was, truly speaking on behalf of the legal community? Judging from your post you sound like a newly minted JD. Give it a few years, work your way up the ladder, then come back to me. Just hope you don't get laid off within the next five months and realize how bad it is out there when you're just another face in the crowd.


I hope so too bro! BTW, if you really are strait chillin' as you say, why would you begrudge others who want to jump off a cliff? How does it affect you?

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MTal
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Re: Warning to all 0L's

Postby MTal » Tue Oct 18, 2011 1:54 pm

shoeshine wrote:We are all aware of the state of the economy.


I don't think you are!




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