Warning to all 0L's

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romothesavior
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Re: Warning to all 0L's

Postby romothesavior » Wed Oct 19, 2011 3:49 pm

pacers3177 wrote:
tlshark wrote:I am trying to understand just when law school is a bad idea.


Law school is a bad idea when:

1) You are taking out six-figure debt for a non T14 school (~ we could stretch that to T17/18 really).

2) You don't have a plan or a backup plan for how to use your J.D.

3) You haven't thoroughly researched the legal field, have no experience, go to a lower ranked school with no connections

4) Overpay to go to a lower ranked school in an over-saturated market (Touro, Syracuse, and Pace for NY for example)

5) Go to a diploma mill (Cooley, Barry, TJ)

6) Go to law school in Wisconsin or Minnesota (way too many lawyers for their markets. Governor of Wisconsin even issued a statement saying Wisconsin doesn't need any more lawyers. Wouldn't actually be surprised if he is LAWSCHOOLREALITY)

7) Applying to a regional law school when you're not from the region and have no ties to it (this applies to the much smaller markets who have schools in the T100. Some people rely on rankings way too much and will apply to say New Mexico, Mizzou, or Utah because their numbers meet their medians. Law schools like these are much more hesitant to admit students not from the area because they know they will most likely try to leave once they graduate. Even if you try to stay, if you aren't from the area employers will be hesitant to hire you. This is very applicable to South Carolina.)

8) Relying on a scholarship at a school known for section-stacking

9) Relying mainly on law school rankings. After the T20 or so, it really is regional so just go to the best school in the region you want to work in/gives you the best deal

10) Going to an unaccredited school

11) YOU DON"T WANT TO BE A LAWYER/THINK IT WILL GET YOU A NON-JD JOB (if you want to go into business, go to business school or get some experience)

I didn't want to try and draw up hard and fast rules, but I actually think this is a pretty solid list. If you fall into any of these categories, DANGER WILL ROBINSON.

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minnbills
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Re: Warning to all 0L's

Postby minnbills » Wed Oct 19, 2011 3:49 pm

msuz wrote:
pacers3177 wrote:6) Go to law school in Wisconsin or Minnesota (way too many lawyers for their markets. Governor of Wisconsin even issued a statement saying Wisconsin doesn't need any more lawyers. Wouldn't actually be surprised if he is LAWSCHOOLREALITY)

lol'd


+1 lol at Scott Walker

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Nicholasnickynic
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Re: Warning to all 0L's

Postby Nicholasnickynic » Wed Oct 19, 2011 3:52 pm

romothesavior wrote:
pacers3177 wrote:
tlshark wrote:I am trying to understand just when law school is a bad idea.


Law school is a bad idea when:

1) You are taking out six-figure debt for a non T14 school (~ we could stretch that to T17/18 really).

2) You don't have a plan or a backup plan for how to use your J.D.

3) You haven't thoroughly researched the legal field, have no experience, go to a lower ranked school with no connections

4) Overpay to go to a lower ranked school in an over-saturated market (Touro, Syracuse, and Pace for NY for example)

5) Go to a diploma mill (Cooley, Barry, TJ)

6) Go to law school in Wisconsin or Minnesota (way too many lawyers for their markets. Governor of Wisconsin even issued a statement saying Wisconsin doesn't need any more lawyers. Wouldn't actually be surprised if he is LAWSCHOOLREALITY)

7) Applying to a regional law school when you're not from the region and have no ties to it (this applies to the much smaller markets who have schools in the T100. Some people rely on rankings way too much and will apply to say New Mexico, Mizzou, or Utah because their numbers meet their medians. Law schools like these are much more hesitant to admit students not from the area because they know they will most likely try to leave once they graduate. Even if you try to stay, if you aren't from the area employers will be hesitant to hire you. This is very applicable to South Carolina.)

8) Relying on a scholarship at a school known for section-stacking

9) Relying mainly on law school rankings. After the T20 or so, it really is regional so just go to the best school in the region you want to work in/gives you the best deal

10) Going to an unaccredited school

11) YOU DON"T WANT TO BE A LAWYER/THINK IT WILL GET YOU A NON-JD JOB (if you want to go into business, go to business school or get some experience)

I didn't want to try and draw up hard and fast rules, but I actually think this is a pretty solid list. If you fall into any of these categories, DANGER WILL ROBINSON.


taking out 6 figures at a school in the 30s. Want to be an ADA, its going well. I'm going to use IBR. Suck it!

MrAnon
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Re: Warning to all 0L's

Postby MrAnon » Wed Oct 19, 2011 4:10 pm

romothesavior wrote:
cattleprod wrote:Samara,
I am actually probably quite modest in my estimates of how bad it sucks to have a JD right now.
I actually have a job, so I am one of the lucky ones after law school.
But as many lawyers will tell you, even when you win, you lose.
There are few exit options or alternatives to this job. After a few years you realize that it is all just pointless BS pushing paper around.
Most civil lawsuits go nowhere. Even when you win, most judgements are uncollectable. It is amazing how much of this is a complete waste of time.

Warning to all 0Ls, do yourself a favor and find something else.
The debt is not financially sustainable based on the likely job that you might obtain.
The jobs for most lawyers are not enjoyable or anything like you imagine on TV.
Ask a few lawyers. I'll bet most of them would tell their children to avoid law school.

I would say that any 1L who is below median should likely bail out and cut their losses.
Just my opinion, you are welcome to it.

You are entitled to your opinion, and I respect it. I wish we had more graduates on TLS sharing their experiences. But you are really projecting your experiences onto the rest of us and to the legal community as a whole, and I don't think that is fair at all.

For every one of you, there is at least one (probably many more) lawyers who like their work, and are making decent money at it. The majority of lawyers I have talked to like it (and I mean really talked to... I am fully capable of picking up bullshit). One guy I met with told me he goes home at night and can't wait to go back to work because he finds his job so interesting. Another guy I know started out at a shitlaw firm (or what most people on TLS would call shitlaw) and enjoys it, and is about to leave to go with a partner to start their own firm and will be making a shitload of money. I could probably rattle off 4-5 attorneys other that I have established a relationship with who all seem to genuinely enjoy their work, make a damn good living, and never stepped foot in a biglaw firm. Some people may hate practicing law, but plenty of others enjoy it. The same could be said of a lot of other industries.

I don't doubt that there are a lot of miserable legal jobs out there, and it sounds like you have one. I don't have any wild fantasies about how super fun it is going to be at my firm when I start full-time. But a job is a job, and everybody needs one. If I can go to work, reasonably enjoy what I'm doing, and make a nice paycheck while I'm at it, I will be ahead of most people in this world.


For every lawyer who tells you he/she loves it (and what else are they supposed to say? How often does someone tell someone they don't know intimately that they hate their work?) there is another who has left the profession.

MrAnon
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Re: Warning to all 0L's

Postby MrAnon » Wed Oct 19, 2011 4:11 pm

Nicholasnickynic wrote:
romothesavior wrote:
pacers3177 wrote:
tlshark wrote:I am trying to understand just when law school is a bad idea.


Law school is a bad idea when:

1) You are taking out six-figure debt for a non T14 school (~ we could stretch that to T17/18 really).

2) You don't have a plan or a backup plan for how to use your J.D.

3) You haven't thoroughly researched the legal field, have no experience, go to a lower ranked school with no connections

4) Overpay to go to a lower ranked school in an over-saturated market (Touro, Syracuse, and Pace for NY for example)

5) Go to a diploma mill (Cooley, Barry, TJ)

6) Go to law school in Wisconsin or Minnesota (way too many lawyers for their markets. Governor of Wisconsin even issued a statement saying Wisconsin doesn't need any more lawyers. Wouldn't actually be surprised if he is LAWSCHOOLREALITY)

7) Applying to a regional law school when you're not from the region and have no ties to it (this applies to the much smaller markets who have schools in the T100. Some people rely on rankings way too much and will apply to say New Mexico, Mizzou, or Utah because their numbers meet their medians. Law schools like these are much more hesitant to admit students not from the area because they know they will most likely try to leave once they graduate. Even if you try to stay, if you aren't from the area employers will be hesitant to hire you. This is very applicable to South Carolina.)

8) Relying on a scholarship at a school known for section-stacking

9) Relying mainly on law school rankings. After the T20 or so, it really is regional so just go to the best school in the region you want to work in/gives you the best deal

10) Going to an unaccredited school

11) YOU DON"T WANT TO BE A LAWYER/THINK IT WILL GET YOU A NON-JD JOB (if you want to go into business, go to business school or get some experience)

I didn't want to try and draw up hard and fast rules, but I actually think this is a pretty solid list. If you fall into any of these categories, DANGER WILL ROBINSON.


taking out 6 figures at a school in the 30s. Want to be an ADA, its going well. I'm going to use IBR. Suck it!


It is a mystery to me why people think IBR will exist beyond a couple years. It is a brand new program that could be wiped away fairly quickly. We lived without it for decades. We could live without it again.

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FantasticMrFox
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Re: Warning to all 0L's

Postby FantasticMrFox » Wed Oct 19, 2011 4:16 pm

Doesn't this kind of make you want to go law school even more?

AriGoldButNicer
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Re: Warning to all 0L's

Postby AriGoldButNicer » Wed Oct 19, 2011 4:28 pm

IDK if Syracuse belongs in the same vein as Pace and Touro. It is in Syracuse. Rutgers is as much an NYC school.

MrAnon
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Re: Warning to all 0L's

Postby MrAnon » Wed Oct 19, 2011 4:39 pm

AriGoldButNicer wrote:IDK if Syracuse belongs in the same vein as Pace and Touro. It is in Syracuse. Rutgers is as much an NYC school.


Its another school the economy could do without. In fact the legal economy would be much more efficient if all four schools closed down. There is no shortage of lawyers in upstate NY, NJ, or NYC.

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NYC Law
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Re: Warning to all 0L's

Postby NYC Law » Wed Oct 19, 2011 4:50 pm

MrAnon wrote:
AriGoldButNicer wrote:IDK if Syracuse belongs in the same vein as Pace and Touro. It is in Syracuse. Rutgers is as much an NYC school.


Its another school the economy could do without. In fact the legal economy would be much more efficient if all four schools closed down. There is no shortage of lawyers in upstate NY, NJ, or NYC.


Are you really suggesting NJ have no law schools? Or just seton hall...?

pacers3177
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Re: Warning to all 0L's

Postby pacers3177 » Wed Oct 19, 2011 4:56 pm

NYC Law wrote:
MrAnon wrote:
AriGoldButNicer wrote:IDK if Syracuse belongs in the same vein as Pace and Touro. It is in Syracuse. Rutgers is as much an NYC school.


Its another school the economy could do without. In fact the legal economy would be much more efficient if all four schools closed down. There is no shortage of lawyers in upstate NY, NJ, or NYC.


Are you really suggesting NJ have no law schools? Or just seton hall...?


Seton Hall should be closed. No reason to pay that much when you're instate and have two Rutgers campuses available. No one goes to Seton Hall out of state to try to break into the NJ legal market.

I put Syracuse on that list because of the tuition. The school actually does outplace its rank, but tuition there is $44,000/year + COL. It doesn't place well in NYC though. If you're instate you should look at SUNY-Buffalo and Albany if you're planning on working upstate. If you want NYC, go to one of the NYC schools. Syracuse isn't a terrible school, but paying anything close to sticker to go there is a mistake. Also, you run the risk of getting stuck in Syracuse post-graduation. God left that place a long time ago.

MrAnon
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Re: Warning to all 0L's

Postby MrAnon » Wed Oct 19, 2011 5:11 pm

NYC Law wrote:
MrAnon wrote:
AriGoldButNicer wrote:IDK if Syracuse belongs in the same vein as Pace and Touro. It is in Syracuse. Rutgers is as much an NYC school.


Its another school the economy could do without. In fact the legal economy would be much more efficient if all four schools closed down. There is no shortage of lawyers in upstate NY, NJ, or NYC.


Are you really suggesting NJ have no law schools? Or just seton hall...?


Close one or two or all three schools. It really doesn't matter. There is an oversupply of lawyers in the state, and if there were ever a shortage then students from other oversupplied states could look there for work.

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NYC Law
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Re: Warning to all 0L's

Postby NYC Law » Wed Oct 19, 2011 5:15 pm

MrAnon wrote:
NYC Law wrote:
MrAnon wrote:
AriGoldButNicer wrote:IDK if Syracuse belongs in the same vein as Pace and Touro. It is in Syracuse. Rutgers is as much an NYC school.


Its another school the economy could do without. In fact the legal economy would be much more efficient if all four schools closed down. There is no shortage of lawyers in upstate NY, NJ, or NYC.


Are you really suggesting NJ have no law schools? Or just seton hall...?


Close one or two or all three schools. It really doesn't matter. There is an oversupply of lawyers in the state, and if there were ever a shortage then students from other oversupplied states could look there for work.


Yeah, because non-NJers are going to readily flock to NJ on a regular basis to compensate for the entire state having no law schools.

:roll:

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cinephile
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Re: Warning to all 0L's

Postby cinephile » Wed Oct 19, 2011 6:09 pm

FantasticMrFox wrote:Doesn't this kind of make you want to go law school even more?


Yes.

cattleprod
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Re: Warning to all 0L's

Postby cattleprod » Wed Oct 19, 2011 6:20 pm

Governor of Wisconsin even issued a statement saying Wisconsin doesn't need any more lawyers.


The guy is 100% correct. That statement would be true is just about everywhere.
There was an effort a few years ago to cancel all state funding for law schools in Wisconsin.
The stated purpose was that Wisconsin doesn't need more lawyers and it shouldn't be subsidized.

In an era of tight state and federal budgets, would it surprise anyone that law schools and other low value grad programs lose their subsidies?
The recent budget deal gets rid of federal grad student subsidies on the deferred interest. It saves $21 billion or so.
Last edited by cattleprod on Wed Oct 19, 2011 6:24 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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minnbills
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Re: Warning to all 0L's

Postby minnbills » Wed Oct 19, 2011 6:22 pm

Right, I'm sure it has nothing to do with Walker's crusade against plaintiffs or his overall disdain for public education.

There is an oversupply of lawyers across the country. In light of that, maybe people should just stop expecting to get a career in law after going to law school?

Zazelmaf
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Re: Warning to all 0L's

Postby Zazelmaf » Wed Oct 19, 2011 6:23 pm

After my last legal job I am pretty much done. F dat. I am just going to law school for the knowledge. And since it's a sunk cost at this point.

MrAnon
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Re: Warning to all 0L's

Postby MrAnon » Wed Oct 19, 2011 6:28 pm

Its no stretch to say that if there were ever a shortage of lawyers in the state then the glut of TTT underemployeds in New York might move there for work. There are also tons and tons of underemployed Philly grads who cannot find work who I am sure would gladly move across the river for 50k + benefits if they thought they could get it.

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un-vordox
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Re: Warning to all 0L's

Postby un-vordox » Wed Oct 19, 2011 6:38 pm

FantasticMrFox wrote:
Doesn't this kind of make you want to go law school even more?


Yes.


+1

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birdlaw117
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Re: Warning to all 0L's

Postby birdlaw117 » Wed Oct 19, 2011 6:46 pm

Zazelmaf wrote:After my last legal job I am pretty much done. F dat. I am just going to law school for the knowledge. And since it's a sunk cost at this point.

You clearly don't understand sunk costs.

tuco
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Re: Warning to all 0L's

Postby tuco » Wed Oct 19, 2011 7:33 pm

This thread needs to end.

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Samara
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Re: Warning to all 0L's

Postby Samara » Wed Oct 19, 2011 7:38 pm

MrAnon wrote:Its no stretch to say that if there were ever a shortage of lawyers in the state then the glut of TTT underemployeds in New York might move there for work. There are also tons and tons of underemployed Philly grads who cannot find work who I am sure would gladly move across the river for 50k + benefits if they thought they could get it.

Uhh...if you're still talking about Wisconsin, are you aware of where it is located in relation to Philly?

cattleprod
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Re: Warning to all 0L's

Postby cattleprod » Wed Oct 19, 2011 7:48 pm

tuco wrote:This thread needs to end.


Nobody is forcing you to click on it. Move along if you have no interest in the topic.

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AreJay711
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Re: Warning to all 0L's

Postby AreJay711 » Wed Oct 19, 2011 7:54 pm

cattleprod wrote:
Governor of Wisconsin even issued a statement saying Wisconsin doesn't need any more lawyers.


The guy is 100% correct. That statement would be true is just about everywhere.
There was an effort a few years ago to cancel all state funding for law schools in Wisconsin.
The stated purpose was that Wisconsin doesn't need more lawyers and it shouldn't be subsidized.

In an era of tight state and federal budgets, would it surprise anyone that law schools and other low value grad programs lose their subsidies?
The recent budget deal gets rid of federal grad student subsidies on the deferred interest. It saves $21 billion or so.


I think that most other grad programs are even lower value than law degrees. We might not need the shit ton of lawyers we produce every year but they are probably more useful than the vast majority of humanities and sociology PhD grads

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okinawa
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Re: Warning to all 0L's

Postby okinawa » Wed Oct 19, 2011 8:10 pm

AreJay711 wrote:
cattleprod wrote:
Governor of Wisconsin even issued a statement saying Wisconsin doesn't need any more lawyers.


The guy is 100% correct. That statement would be true is just about everywhere.
There was an effort a few years ago to cancel all state funding for law schools in Wisconsin.
The stated purpose was that Wisconsin doesn't need more lawyers and it shouldn't be subsidized.

In an era of tight state and federal budgets, would it surprise anyone that law schools and other low value grad programs lose their subsidies?
The recent budget deal gets rid of federal grad student subsidies on the deferred interest. It saves $21 billion or so.


I think that most other grad programs are even lower value than law degrees. We might not need the shit ton of lawyers we produce every year but they are probably more useful than the vast majority of humanities and sociology PhD grads


Except most of these are funded and people know they will have to struggle to get a job.

bartleby
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Re: Warning to all 0L's

Postby bartleby » Wed Oct 19, 2011 8:20 pm

I'm on near-full scholarship and I sorta regret LS right now. I'm an idiot so I took out a good amount of loans anyway to live nicely (2 months of rent > my entire first year tuition; 12 months rent > my entire ls tuition). But law school is hard. And competitive. People are lame. Gossip a lot. A lot of haters.

I went to ls because grad school just isn't feasible. It's like 100x worse than law school. Grad school is funded for like 2 people out of a pool of 100, and you better hope James Franco isn't one of the 100. Career prospects are like a zillion times worse - definitely worse than a NYLS grad.




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