Warning to all 0L's

(Applications Advice, Letters of Recommendation . . . )
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romothesavior
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Re: Warning to all 0L's

Postby romothesavior » Tue Oct 18, 2011 9:05 pm

LAWSCHOOLREALITY wrote:Free ride or HYS acceptance. Free ride or HYS acceptance. Free ride or HYS acceptance. Free ride or HYS acceptance. Free ride or HYS acceptance. Free ride or HYS acceptance. Free ride or HYS acceptance.

Okay, you're right. RC fail by me. Still doesn't change the logic of what you said (you're still saying that going to any law school right now, for any price, is a bad decision), nor does it change anything I said to you.

So you're still a condescending asshole who has added no value at all to the TLS community.

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bouakedojo
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Re: Warning to all 0L's

Postby bouakedojo » Tue Oct 18, 2011 9:11 pm

LAWSCHOOLREALITY wrote:
JamMasterJ wrote:tl;dr

also:
LAWSCHOOLREALITY wrote:There are too many lawyers and we don't need anymore


Then you clearly read it.


I'm going to law school to learn how to reason as sharply as you, LAWSCHOOLREALITY.

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JusticeHarlan
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Re: Warning to all 0L's

Postby JusticeHarlan » Tue Oct 18, 2011 9:20 pm

LAWSCHOOLREALITY wrote:
romothesavior wrote:
LAWSCHOOLREALITY wrote:Wrong. I never said don't go to law school. I said don't go to law school right now, or within the next few years. If it was up to those in the legal community, we would put at least a two year admissions freeze on all law schools. There simply isn't a need for more lawyers at the moment. Obviously we can't do that so we're just waiting for you to waste three of years of life and thousands of dollars to then curb the glut of lawyers with extremely slim hiring opportunities. Just remember, and I hate to say this, once you leave the classroom and are done competing with your classmates, you have several hundred thousand other lawyers looking for employment to compete with. Plus side to new grads, young and easy to mold. Plus side for unemployed recent grads/older lawyers, will desperately work for peanuts. Both are dispensable at the moment. Sorry if it's not what you want to hear.

I'm known as a pessimist on these boards, but you are being downright stupid.

1) If it were up to those in the legal community, all admissions would be frozen? Really? Tell that to the Vault firms that are ramping up hiring this year. Tell that to the firms that are concerned that they may have cut too fast a few years ago, and are now being burned by a lack of mid-level associates, and are slowly starting to increase hiring again. Sure, there is a huge glut of lawyers, but the demand certainly isn't zero.
2) To suggest that going to HYS for free is a bad decision is just stupid. There are plenty of law schools in this country worth going to at the right price, and certainly for free.
3) Stop acting like you possess some sort of higher knowledge that the rest of us don't already know. There are people on TLS who know the market far, far better than even those who are out in practice. Most people on here were well-informed about all of this going in. You're not some prophet sent on high to set us all straight. You're just an asshole.

Don't get me wrong, I love me some healthy pessimism. I think TLS could actually use a lot more of it, as the community as a whole is probably too "rah rah!" about law school for my own taste. But your posts here are just beyond absurd. The reality of legal hiring is bad enough without your hyperbole, so either come back down from your perch and get back in touch with reality, or GTFO of here.


Free ride or HYS acceptance. Free ride or HYS acceptance. Free ride or HYS acceptance. Free ride or HYS acceptance. Free ride or HYS acceptance. Free ride or HYS acceptance. Free ride or HYS acceptance.

Super cool dodge of the substance of the post, bro.

ihhwap1
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Re: Warning to all 0L's

Postby ihhwap1 » Tue Oct 18, 2011 9:37 pm

.
Last edited by ihhwap1 on Sat Oct 22, 2011 8:07 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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Samara
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Re: Warning to all 0L's

Postby Samara » Tue Oct 18, 2011 9:42 pm

bk1 wrote:
Samara wrote:So, how again is T14 a terrible decision?


Because very few of them satisfy either of these:

Samara wrote:If a matriculant has a little WE and is not a total aspie.

haha, that's what I hear. I have at least one of these, so I guess I'll be okay.

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qbt1990
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Re: Warning to all 0L's

Postby qbt1990 » Tue Oct 18, 2011 9:55 pm

romothesavior wrote:You're not some prophet sent on high to set us all straight. You're just an asshole.



THIS. For the win

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JusticeHarlan
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Re: Warning to all 0L's

Postby JusticeHarlan » Tue Oct 18, 2011 10:11 pm

Also:

viewtopic.php?f=7&t=146613

[...] but this forum is NOT the place to argue or debate which law schools are worth attending and under what circumstances. The threads here typically involve people who have already decided to apply and are seeking or sharing news on the state of their applications. You and them and everyone else are all free to discuss whether or not attending is a good idea in the appropriate forum, not here.

Starting or perpetuating arguments here about whether a school is worth attending may be deemed trolling and get you banned.

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Richie Tenenbaum
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Re: Warning to all 0L's

Postby Richie Tenenbaum » Tue Oct 18, 2011 10:18 pm

cattleprod wrote:
Richie Tenenbaum wrote:Sorry but you're wrong--there still is a need for legal hiring just because of how biglaw hiring works. Those past graduates who unemployed are pretty much shut out of biglaw. Why? Biglaw simply moves on to the new grads. Would it be better for the profession if it didn't work this way? Maybe, but all I'm focused on is how it currently works. 2Ls are competing against other 2Ls (and a few 3Ls) for future biglaw jobs right now...not the previous grads who are unemployed.


WSJ: First-Year Associates: Are They Worth It?
(October 17, 2011)
http://blogs.wsj.com/law/2011/10/17/fir ... -worth-it/

We are trying to enter a market that is changing. Companies don't want to pay first or second year associates.
The billing strategy of Biglaw is falling apart. As a result the law school students of today are getting squeezed out through no fault of their own.
The trend this forces on Biglaw is smaller 1st year associate classes and keeping senior associates longer.
More experienced associates and less fresh meat from T14. More outsourcing of basic legal work.
Just my opinion, you are welcome to it.


You don't have to convince me that the biglaw current model is broken. But as of right now, the model hasn't changed too drastically. Both myself and many of my classmates got our 2L summer offers through OCI at biglaw firms where we will hopefully be able to go to after graduating. (Here's to hoping the economy doesn't tank out and leave us offerless.) Are we being overpaid? Probably. But that's the model that is in place right now, and the model that is at the center of the discussion here.

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Chambo
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Re: Warning to all 0L's

Postby Chambo » Tue Oct 18, 2011 10:58 pm

Yeah, well, I'm a psychology major and don't want to get a PhD or be a social worker.

Guess I'm totally screwed no matter what.

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briviere
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Re: Warning to all 0L's

Postby briviere » Tue Oct 18, 2011 11:12 pm

What are the prospects for American JD holders abroad?

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BackToTheOldHouse
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Re: Warning to all 0L's

Postby BackToTheOldHouse » Tue Oct 18, 2011 11:57 pm

briviere wrote:What are the prospects for American JD holders abroad?

I would guess . . . . . . . . zzzziiiiillllllccccchhhhhh.

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MTal
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Re: Warning to all 0L's

Postby MTal » Wed Oct 19, 2011 12:03 am

God, you are all so fucked.

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Yeshia90
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Re: Warning to all 0L's

Postby Yeshia90 » Wed Oct 19, 2011 12:12 am

MTal wrote:God, you are all so fucked.


All. There's not going to be a single TLSer who makes good money and/or likes the work they do. Gotcha.

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MTal
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Re: Warning to all 0L's

Postby MTal » Wed Oct 19, 2011 12:26 am

Yeshia90 wrote:
MTal wrote:God, you are all so fucked.


All. There's not going to be a single TLSer who makes good money and/or likes the work they do. Gotcha.


Sorry, not all. The vast, VAST majority though.

83947368
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Re: Warning to all 0L's

Postby 83947368 » Wed Oct 19, 2011 12:59 am

LAWSCHOOLREALITY wrote:I am speaking on behalf of the legal profession as a whole.


did not read thread. sorry if already mentioned. but what tool.

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romothesavior
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Re: Warning to all 0L's

Postby romothesavior » Wed Oct 19, 2011 1:03 am

MTal wrote:
Yeshia90 wrote:
MTal wrote:God, you are all so fucked.


All. There's not going to be a single TLSer who makes good money and/or likes the work they do. Gotcha.


Sorry, not all. The vast, VAST majority though.

I highly doubt it is even the vast majority. Most of the regulars on TLS seem to have their heads on straight, go to good schools, and many (most?) of the 2Ls and 3Ls already have jobs. I know you love to talk about how great your decision to quit was and how you didn't take on all the debt that some law students have, but a lot of TLSers are going to make far, far more money than you ever will, and they won't ever have to work in a call center to do it.

The whole don't go to law school thing is a message I endorse a lot of the time, but you go about it the wrong way. The theme that you and OP push is a good one, but your excessive schtick drowns it out. Glad things worked out for you, but you need to come to grips with the fact that law is going to work out just fine for a lot of us too.

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rabbitrun
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Re: Warning to all 0L's

Postby rabbitrun » Wed Oct 19, 2011 1:19 am

In response to the lawschoolreality in general:
I dont know if you have noticed this, but everything is shit, not just the law profession. Forgive us for wanting to try to get tools (i.e. a law school education) that might help our chances of not being homeless/a 40 yr old living at home like you or, worst case senario, delaying our terrible fate by staying in school for a couple of years while doing something we are interested in.
We know we aren't special. That's why we want to go to law school, and why we aren't pursuing a career as an astronaut, actor, or writer.
Chances of succeeding as a lawyer are still better than a lot of the other options available to libarts majors (like myself). I doubt I would be able to make it professionally pursuing either one of my ridiculous majors or anything tangentially related (at one time in my life, english and psych appeared to be a good idea...)
Finally, not everyone just jumps into law school because they can't think of any other options other than housewife. Some of us want to be lawyers because of interest as well as pragmatic reasons. And some of us, go out into the real world, get scared and realize that they should go to law school.
Stop peeing in people's cheerios. Let me be overly optimistic. We all know its a crapshoot but EVERYTHING right now is.
Last edited by rabbitrun on Fri Oct 21, 2011 6:48 am, edited 2 times in total.

83947368
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Re: Warning to all 0L's

Postby 83947368 » Wed Oct 19, 2011 1:23 am

Oh man, I just read the thread and what a romp!

Let me summarize:

LaWl schoolz =Z no jErbs!!1!

Im gUnnA b a laYwer! $$

Na-uh: graphzzzz

Ya huh!

FaCtL no 1 haz eVar goTTen laWz jerbz... EVAR!!1@!

na-uh: graphZzzz

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stratocophic
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Re: Warning to all 0L's

Postby stratocophic » Wed Oct 19, 2011 1:29 am

Lol, I knew this was truly a dumb thread once I hit the words "better the legal profession"

Can I get a amen from those who jus' heah ta get PAID

Image

ETA: this is exactly what I'd have wanted my 2000th post to be had I known this was going to be it before I hit submit.

pacers3177
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Re: Warning to all 0L's

Postby pacers3177 » Wed Oct 19, 2011 3:46 am

rabbitrun wrote:in response to the lawschoolreality in general:
i dont know if you have noticed this, but everything is shit, not just the law profession. forgive us for wanting to try to get tools (i.e. a law school education) that might help our chances of not being homeless/a 40 yr old living at home like you or, worst case senario, delaying our terrible fate by staying in school for a couple of years while doing something we are interested in.
we know we aren't special. thats why we want to go to law school and why we aren't pursuing a career as an astronaut or an actor or a writer or something.
chances of succeeding as a lawyer are still better than a lot of the other options available to libarts majors (like myself). I doubt i would be able to make it professionally pursuing either one of my ridiculous majors or anything tangentially related (at one time in my life, english and psych appeared to be a good idea...)
Finally, not everyone just jumps into law school because they can't think of any other options other than housewife. Some of us want to be lawyers because of interest as well as pragmatic reasons. And some of us, go out into the real world, get scared and realize that they should go to law school.
stop peeing in people's cheerios. let me be overly optimistic. we all know its a crapshoot but EVERYTHING right now is.


Not to be too grim, I think this thread is disturbing enough, but theres a lot of talk that once this economy rebounds (whenever the hell that may be) that the legal field is not going to recover in the same manner. The weak employment prospects for most lawyers at the moment isn't as much a reflection of the economy as it is the recession accelerating an already growing trend in the legal field. As others have mentioned, a lot of work is being outsourced and there already was a glut of lawyers before the recession hit.

You'd also be surprised at how many fresh JD's are living at home. The debt is atrocious for many of them. Good rule of thumb, dont borrow more than you'd expect to make in your first year's salary. I don't know if you just wrote that as a rant in response to the OP or not, but some things did stand out. Don't use law school as a way to dodge the recession. And only go to law school if you ARE SURE you want to be a lawyer.

It was stated earlier in the thread by a few posters, while the OP is clearly insane if he is serious in what he is saying as solutions to the legal field's problems, there are clearly a lot of red flags. Law school is a bad decision for a majority of people entering it (>50%), and right now is just an overall bad time to be entering the field for most. Tuition is over-inflated at about 3/4 of law schools, and the payback just isn't there. People hate how elitist the field is, but thats just the way it is. Its having a trickle-down effect as well. Lots of T14 grads who aren't getting the offers they are hoping (namely biglaw) for are taking the jobs that those in the lower T1/T2 schools are gunning for. I'm talking about the public interest work, state government, and mid-size law firm gigs. People aren't saying don't go to ______ because its a bad choice to be mean. It may seem mean and that they may actually be assholes, but the overall message is still good advice, tough love at worst.

cattleprod
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Re: Warning to all 0L's

Postby cattleprod » Wed Oct 19, 2011 11:06 am

pacers3177 wrote:Not to be too grim, I think this thread is disturbing enough, but theres a lot of talk that once this economy rebounds (whenever the hell that may be) that the legal field is not going to recover in the same manner.


That would be my prediction also. Even if we have an eventual economic recovery, law firm hiring is unlikely to reach the levels it was at in 2006.

pacers3177 wrote:Law school is a bad decision for a majority of people entering it (>50%), and right now is just an overall bad time to be entering the field for most. Tuition is over-inflated at about 3/4 of law schools, and the payback just isn't there. People hate how elitist the field is, but thats just the way it is. Its having a trickle-down effect as well. Lots of T14 grads who aren't getting the offers they are hoping (namely biglaw) for are taking the jobs that those in the lower T1/T2 schools are gunning for. I'm talking about the public interest work, state government, and mid-size law firm gigs. People aren't saying don't go to ______ because its a bad choice to be mean. It may seem mean and that they may actually be assholes, but the overall message is still good advice, tough love at worst.


Well written. Lawschoolreality probably is an asshole lawyer in real life. He is peeing in your Cherrios by actually daring to speak about how bad it actually sucks right now. That doesn't mean he is wrong.

Deep down we all know that the legal industry absolutely reeks and the student loan debt is way to high to justify the likely financial rewards.

For most it is too late and they lack the ability to make the rational financial decision and drop out after 1L. We all just double down and hope for the best. Keep signing those student loan docs and pray that eventually the government makes them dischargeable in bankruptcy.

Start signing a fake name and see if anyone notices. Just sign "Mickey Mouse". Maybe challenge the loans later and see if they can produce the documents. Claim it was loan fraud by the law school. Most of those criminal law schools are just Ponzi schemes living off of new investors (aka students) to payoff those at the top of the scam (law school profs and deans).

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JusticeHarlan
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Re: Warning to all 0L's

Postby JusticeHarlan » Wed Oct 19, 2011 11:35 am

cattleprod wrote:Most of those criminal law schools are just Ponzi schemes living off of new investors (aka students) to payoff those at the top of the scam (law school profs and deans).
I don't think you know what a Ponzi scheme is.

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JamMasterJ
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Re: Warning to all 0L's

Postby JamMasterJ » Wed Oct 19, 2011 11:40 am

hey guys, don't go to law school. After reading this guy's double single digit post count, I've conclusively determined that it's a bad idea








more jobs for me

cattleprod
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Re: Warning to all 0L's

Postby cattleprod » Wed Oct 19, 2011 12:24 pm

JusticeHarlan wrote:
cattleprod wrote:Most of those criminal law schools are just Ponzi schemes living off of new investors (aka students) to payoff those at the top of the scam (law school profs and deans).
I don't think you know what a Ponzi scheme is.


I don't care. 80% to 90% of the law schools are producing fraudulent data on employment and salary for their graduates.
It is a scam and that is the bottom line.

Students are the new investors that are getting $100,000 to $200,000 stolen from them.
The money eventually goes to the criminals at the top (law profs and deans) who are perpetuating the scam.

They perpetuate the scheme with the fake employment and salary stats which omit key data points.
Here is a classic example from last week. Aaron Nathaniel Taylor, “Law Professor” at St. Louis University wrote this article making the unbelievable statement that lawyer unemployment is 1.5%.
http://www.nationaljurist.com/content/w ... l-worth-it
Give me a phucking break. These people need to be sent to jail for the financial fraud they are committing.

Fraudulent statements like that (1.5% unemployment) and fake 9 months employment stats and false median salaries, perpetuate this scam to bring in more unwitting investors (aka students).
That is equivalent to sending fake monthly financial statements to your investors (aka students). Or it is the same as producing a fraudulent prospectus for your investors. They produce the fake data claiming 90% to 100% employment within 9 months to falsely lure freah meat into the student loan debt trap.

Any other business would be sued by a state AG or the DoJ for this type of activity.

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JamMasterJ
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Re: Warning to all 0L's

Postby JamMasterJ » Wed Oct 19, 2011 12:42 pm

cattleprod wrote:
JusticeHarlan wrote:
cattleprod wrote:Most of those criminal law schools are just Ponzi schemes living off of new investors (aka students) to payoff those at the top of the scam (law school profs and deans).
I don't think you know what a Ponzi scheme is.


I don't care. 80% to 90% of the law schools are producing fraudulent data on employment and salary for their graduates.

cattleprod wrote:90%-95% of new lawyers are not making $100,000+ and never will.


where the hell do you get these numbers? your ass?




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