Warning to all 0L's Forum

[PersuasiveCharm]

Surprised this thread has yet to be locked...

[msuz]

I'm on near-full scholarship and I sorta regret LS right now. I'm an idiot so I took out a good amount of loans anyway to live nicely (2 months of rent > my entire first year tuition; 12 months rent > my entire ls tuition). But law school is hard. And competitive. People are lame. Gossip a lot. A lot of haters.

I went to ls because grad school just isn't feasible. It's like 100x worse than law school. Grad school is funded for like 2 people out of a pool of 100, and you better hope James Franco isn't one of the 100. Career prospects are like a zillion times worse - definitely worse than a NYLS grad.

HA I love reading this thread for lulz.

I hear James Franco is getting his JD now, I was on the waitlist at Harvard but he took my spot. I read in a another thread that someone has a class with the singer (or guitarist?) of Blind Melon, too. At least they both have back-up careers if they cant find legal employment right?

[Schola]

Governor of Wisconsin even issued a statement saying Wisconsin doesn't need any more lawyers.

The guy is 100% correct. That statement would be true is just about everywhere.
There was an effort a few years ago to cancel all state funding for law schools in Wisconsin.
The stated purpose was that Wisconsin doesn't need more lawyers and it shouldn't be subsidized.

In an era of tight state and federal budgets, would it surprise anyone that law schools and other low value grad programs lose their subsidies?
The recent budget deal gets rid of federal grad student subsidies on the deferred interest. It saves $21 billion or so.

I think that most other grad programs are even lower value than law degrees. We might not need the shit ton of lawyers we produce every year but they are probably more useful than the vast majority of humanities and sociology PhD grads

Except most of these are funded and people know they will have to struggle to get a job.

As someone finishing up his PhD, I can say that the vast majority of students in the humanities just don't get how bad the academic job market is when they enter grad school. When I started I remember the occasional guy or girl getting a tenure track position at places like Chicago or Michigan. While there are exceptions to every rule (a few friends got TT at Baylor, Villanova, Houston, and Holy Cross last year), now people are lucky to get tenure track positions at schools you have never heard of. For every person w/ TT at a place like Villanova, I know someone who either has been on the post-doc/visiting professorship circuit for 4 or 5 years or took a job oversees in places like Singapore or Dubai (I'm not kidding). I unfortunately know lots of people coming out of top 10 programs w/ a couple of publications in major journals who are now on their second post-doc, uncertain of whether they will have employment next year. I even know a couple of guys who are now living at home with their parents. One of my best friends here did his JD at Yale before going to grad school (passing up a job at Jones, Day) and left to practice law last year right before finishing his PhD b/c the academic job market is so bad. This New Yorker cover about sums it up:

http://chronicle.com/blogs/brainstorm/i ... ouse/24202

That being said, as someone who went to graduate school simply b/c he wanted to learn more, a decent graduate stipend is more than enough to live off of. Thus even after I realized that I have little desire to be a life-long academic, I had the freedom to decide that I wanted to finish my Ph.D. without going into debt.

[LAWSCHOOLREALITY]

I'm on near-full scholarship and I sorta regret LS right now. I'm an idiot so I took out a good amount of loans anyway to live nicely (2 months of rent > my entire first year tuition; 12 months rent > my entire ls tuition). But law school is hard. And competitive. People are lame. Gossip a lot. A lot of haters.

I went to ls because grad school just isn't feasible. It's like 100x worse than law school. Grad school is funded for like 2 people out of a pool of 100, and you better hope James Franco isn't one of the 100. Career prospects are like a zillion times worse - definitely worse than a NYLS grad.

Drop out

[JCougar]

I realize I haven't posted much (one other time), and I know how much everyone here loves lurkers. And that still doesn't change my question, so here goes.

I am trying to understand just when law school is a bad idea.

Is it directly related to the amount of debt? Is it the ranking of the school? Both? What about if you want to do something other than BigLaw?

For instance, if you get a full-ride to Texas (using that as an example, since it is the lowest T14) do you go?

How about a full-ride to Michigan State?

$25K, $50K, $75K, $100K in debt?

What if someone's whole reason for getting the JD is to hang out a shingle?

Is it only a bad idea for those who want BigLaw?

I have a friend that took a 75% scholarship to Michigan State. He finished in the top 15%, and a year after graduation, the only interview he got was for clerking for a judge somewhere in rural Minnesota. He has no family or ties to Minnesota. I don't even think he got the job.

He's now hooked up with some document review racket in Milwaukee making $15/hour on and off depending on when projects come in. No, he's not in 6-figure debt from law school, but with living expenses, he's not all that far.

I made $15/hour selling shoes as a part time job during undergrad, and I got to work at a department store with a bunch of hot girls.

No one fully understands the scope of how bad it is right now. Nearly everyone that graduates from a TTT right now has thrown their career down the drain, even people in the top 10%. But I'll bet with honest numbers, 50% of people in the bottom half of the T1 will be completely unemployed or working as a barista for tips somewhere.

Law is a profession of endurance. You'll probably eventually succeed if you're smart and you stick around, but so many people decide they just can't bear it.

[tilapiahollandaise]

Just out of curiosity, what do all of you who say "don't go to law school if you're not x" think people who are not x should do for a lucrative career?

[ToTransferOrNot]

Just out of curiosity, what do all of you who say "don't go to law school if you're not x" think people who are not x should do for a lucrative career?

Not everyone is going to have a lucrative career. If you didn't do something in undergrad that will lead to a job, that sucks - but that doesn't mean you should take out massive loans to go to law school.

If you really don't have much in the way of lost opportunity cost, though, going to a "decent" law school on full scholarship isn't a terrible decision, as long as you're not taking out many loans for COL.

ETA: And the "don't even go to a T14 on a full ride or HYS" stuff is total silliness.

[Blessedassurance]

Just out of curiosity, what do all of you who say "don't go to law school if you're not x" think people who are not x should do for a lucrative career?

Start a church.

[Blessedassurance]

Why not get your JD and go into business? Just because you're at law school doesn't mean you need to practice as an attorney. Use the skills, connections, and prestige you earn in law school to make bank in business or finance.

I don't think the problem is going away anytime soon if people are still clinging unto this myth after a thousand posts on TLS.

[ToTransferOrNot]

Why not get your JD and go into business? Just because you're at law school doesn't mean you need to practice as an attorney. Use the skills, connections, and prestige you earn in law school to make bank in business or finance.

I don't think the problem is going away anytime soon if people are still clinging unto this myth after a thousand posts on TLS.

I didn't notice that post. Jesusfuckingchrist.

[MrAnon]

Just out of curiosity, what do all of you who say "don't go to law school if you're not x" think people who are not x should do for a lucrative career?

If its money you are after you should look into industries that make money like sales, finance.

[JusticeHarlan]

Just out of curiosity, what do all of you who say "don't go to law school if you're not x" think people who are not x should do for a lucrative career?

This

[ToTransferOrNot]

Just out of curiosity, what do all of you who say "don't go to law school if you're not x" think people who are not x should do for a lucrative career?

This

+1 for what, standing alone, is a good cross-reference.

-everything for giving MTal attention

[89vision]

Well, there are not too many careers that are expanding right now. I want to eventually get a Phd and teach, but it's difficult to get into a doctorate program right out of undergrad, and you can't teach at too many universities with an M.A. A lot of Phd market's are shrinking. However, economies are consistently shrinking, stagnating, recovering and growing. It's a cycle. Yes, the global economy has been bleak since 2008, but it will recover.

No, I am not basing my decision to attend law school based on naive optimism, but recessions end. Bubbles grow, burst, normalize and are reborn. We live in a litigation nation. The American way is to sue. I am getting into law for the right reasons, and am willing to work hard to realize my goals. I plan on entering the public sector as well, so there may be loan forgiveness still in effect. I lso think it is important to understand parts of the law profession are growing, while others are over saturated. From my understanding, graduating in the top 3rd or half at a regional school is good enough to land a job in the region. And, from my understanding, there are plenty of slackers in law school, meaning curves at some schools are meant to allow hard workers to maintain at least a B average. Yes, this obviously differs by school, but this is based on my conversations with students at my home town's public law school.

I don't think scare tactics are very effective, or a post that does not offer outside, third party analysis. I am personally weary of placing too much value on what an unnamed internet poster is writing on a forum. I place more value in what my Professor's and adviser's are saying, and what the job market in my region are like. It differs per region, per state, but I think people should try to avoid placing a regional or local truth as universal, national trend, independent from individual trends within law. I also question the intent of a person posting on a forum with individuals committed to attending law school. Law school, I imagine, requires critical thinking and rationale, and listening to what a random stranger writes would not demonstrate good thinking skills. This is a great way to upset people though.

[MrAnon]

Well, there are not too many careers that are expanding right now. I want to eventually get a Phd and teach, but it's difficult to get into a doctorate program right out of undergrad, and you can't teach at too many universities with an M.A. A lot of Phd market's are shrinking. However, economies are consistently shrinking, stagnating, recovering and growing. It's a cycle. Yes, the global economy has been bleak since 2008, but it will recover.

No, I am not basing my decision to attend law school based on naive optimism, but recessions end. Bubbles grow, burst, normalize and are reborn. We live in a litigation nation. The American way is to sue. I am getting into law for the right reasons, and am willing to work hard to realize my goals. I plan on entering the public sector as well, so there may be loan forgiveness still in effect. I lso think it is important to understand parts of the law profession are growing, while others are over saturated. From my understanding, graduating in the top 3rd or half at a regional school is good enough to land a job in the region. And, from my understanding, there are plenty of slackers in law school, meaning curves at some schools are meant to allow hard workers to maintain at least a B average. Yes, this obviously differs by school, but this is based on my conversations with students at my home town's public law school.

I don't think scare tactics are very effective, or a post that does not offer outside, third party analysis. I am personally weary of placing too much value on what an unnamed internet poster is writing on a forum. I place more value in what my Professor's and adviser's are saying, and what the job market in my region are like. It differs per region, per state, but I think people should try to avoid placing a regional or local truth as universal, national trend, independent from individual trends within law. I also question the intent of a person posting on a forum with individuals committed to attending law school. Law school, I imagine, requires critical thinking and rationale, and listening to what a random stranger writes would not demonstrate good thinking skills. This is a great way to upset people though.

Is this flame? Your professors and advisers interest is in keeping the educational industrial complex humming. The day they come out and admit that chasing overpriced degrees is a fools errand is the day their house of cards falls.

[Bronte]

Well, there are not too many careers that are expanding right now. I want to eventually get a Phd and teach, but it's difficult to get into a doctorate program right out of undergrad, and you can't teach at too many universities with an M.A. A lot of Phd market's are shrinking. However, economies are consistently shrinking, stagnating, recovering and growing. It's a cycle. Yes, the global economy has been bleak since 2008, but it will recover.

No, I am not basing my decision to attend law school based on naive optimism, but recessions end. Bubbles grow, burst, normalize and are reborn. We live in a litigation nation. The American way is to sue. I am getting into law for the right reasons, and am willing to work hard to realize my goals. I plan on entering the public sector as well, so there may be loan forgiveness still in effect. I lso think it is important to understand parts of the law profession are growing, while others are over saturated. From my understanding, graduating in the top 3rd or half at a regional school is good enough to land a job in the region. And, from my understanding, there are plenty of slackers in law school, meaning curves at some schools are meant to allow hard workers to maintain at least a B average. Yes, this obviously differs by school, but this is based on my conversations with students at my home town's public law school.

I don't think scare tactics are very effective, or a post that does not offer outside, third party analysis. I am personally weary of placing too much value on what an unnamed internet poster is writing on a forum. I place more value in what my Professor's and adviser's are saying, and what the job market in my region are like. It differs per region, per state, but I think people should try to avoid placing a regional or local truth as universal, national trend, independent from individual trends within law. I also question the intent of a person posting on a forum with individuals committed to attending law school. Law school, I imagine, requires critical thinking and rationale, and listening to what a random stranger writes would not demonstrate good thinking skills. This is a great way to upset people though.

Only 68.4% of last year's graduating class got jobs as lawyers. http://www.nalp.org/uploads/Classof2010 ... ndings.pdf. Your undergraduate professors and advisers are likely not reliable. This forum is full of law students that are intimately involved with the legal market right now. They may be a bunch of strangers on the internet, but I've been posting on this forum for going on two years, and have watched these same posters go through the LSAT process, the admissions process, and the job search. My critical thinking tells me that it's virtually impossible that they've invented the details of that journey, which have closely paralleled mine. I've even met some of them here in law school. Point being: this forum has much more accurate information about the current job market than your undergraduate advisers have. Further, it's all readily verifiable via outside sources like the NYT, WSJ, Above the Law, NALP, Law School Transparency, etc.

By your own reckoning, only 33-50% of the graduates at the school you're considering attending get "good jobs." Is that a risk you're willing to take? Counting on half the class being lazy is not a good idea. You'll just have to trust me on that.

[89vision]

I think my Professor's and adviser's have my best interests in mind. They are honest about job prospects, especially about the dwindling market for history Phd's. It does not benefit them at all to have me go to law school and not practice law. That would hurt the employment rates. I tend to think people working in the law and academic fields do have a better understanding of things than strangers inciting others on an internet forum. The adviser for my thesis openly told me that you can't take out 100k in loans in this economy and that going into debt for a law degree is a bad decision. It looks good for them to have students that succeed, right? So advising them to chase a career that would not pan out is unwise and counterproductive. They are not pushing people to get history or art history Phd's right now. Maybe your Professor's and adviser's are different, but mine are honest about the job prospects.

69% got jobs as lawyers. But not all law students WANT to be lawyers. Others want to teach. Others want to be scholars. Others want to become administrators. A much BETTER statistic to provide is a comparision of those who want to be lawyers and those who become lawyers. If you have those numbers, I would be interested in seeing them.

TLS may not be an accurate depiction of things as a whole, though. I don't rely on ancedotal evidence, which is what you are providing at this juncture. Well, these people that I read about online, who SAY they have x stats, went to x school, graduated at x %...I don't know, but I don't think people are always completely honest. Maybe people are trying to discourage competition. Like I said, certain fields of law are expanding. You are making a generalization of an entire profession, without evidence or accurate evidence. Sorry, but so many people on here say "x school must have poor employment prospects, because this one guy I know..."

I did not say 33-50% have "good jobs." Honestly, after working full time, I consider most careers that have benefits and security "good jobs." I am not relying on people being lazy. I do remember clearly stating I am willing to put in the work. Feel free to re read if you are seeking any clarity. I would hate to see a false inference.

I am saying conditions differ per environment, and you are not taking that into consideration. The law market in my region did not take much of a hit. And, again, I can not trust a guy who comes onto a board, looking to scare a bunch of college kids, under an anyonomous name, offering little support beyond "you'll just have to trust me." If you can fill in the gaps of your argument, maybe. But you are not giving real support beyond generalizations that I interpret as personal opinions.

You are making false inferences of my statements. I don't mind having a conversation, but please read my posts attentively and post based on what is actually said.

[Tiago Splitter]

Sorry, but so many people on here say "x school must have poor employment prospects, because this one guy I know..."

No. Nobody says that.

http://www.lawschooltransparency.com

All of the data is there to see.

[89vision]

Nobody? Haha, wow. There is a thread discussing Cleveland Marshall vs. Case where a poster states that a guy he knows who went to Case now works the dockets when discussing job prospects. Did not cite that website.

I will absolutely gaurentee that at least one person has used that argument. Haha.

[Tiago Splitter]

Nobody? Haha, wow. There is a thread discussing Cleveland Marshall vs. Case where a poster states that a guy he knows who went to Case now works the dockets when discussing job prospects. Did not cite that website.

I will absolutely gaurentee that at least one person has used that argument. Haha.

Protip: if the choice is between those two schools, the answer is neither.

[89vision]

Saying that nobody uses that tactic is wrong, regardless of what schools are being compared. The fact that you think neither school has employment prospects is irrelevant to your original statement.

[okinawa]

I think my Professor's and adviser's have my best interests in mind. They are honest about job prospects, especially about the dwindling market for history Phd's. It does not benefit them at all to have me go to law school and not practice law. That would hurt the employment rates. I tend to think people working in the law and academic fields do have a better understanding of things than strangers inciting others on an internet forum. The adviser for my thesis openly told me that you can't take out 100k in loans in this economy and that going into debt for a law degree is a bad decision. It looks good for them to have students that succeed, right? So advising them to chase a career that would not pan out is unwise and counterproductive. They are not pushing people to get history or art history Phd's right now. Maybe your Professor's and adviser's are different, but mine are honest about the job prospects.

69% got jobs as lawyers. But not all law students WANT to be lawyers. Others want to teach. Others want to be scholars. Others want to become administrators. A much BETTER statistic to provide is a comparision of those who want to be lawyers and those who become lawyers. If you have those numbers, I would be interested in seeing them.

TLS may not be an accurate depiction of things as a whole, though. I don't rely on ancedotal evidence, which is what you are providing at this juncture. Well, these people that I read about online, who SAY they have x stats, went to x school, graduated at x %...I don't know, but I don't think people are always completely honest. Maybe people are trying to discourage competition. Like I said, certain fields of law are expanding. You are making a generalization of an entire profession, without evidence or accurate evidence. Sorry, but so many people on here say "x school must have poor employment prospects, because this one guy I know..."

I did not say 33-50% have "good jobs." Honestly, after working full time, I consider most careers that have benefits and security "good jobs." I am not relying on people being lazy. I do remember clearly stating I am willing to put in the work. Feel free to re read if you are seeking any clarity. I would hate to see a false inference.

I am saying conditions differ per environment, and you are not taking that into consideration. The law market in my region did not take much of a hit. And, again, I can not trust a guy who comes onto a board, looking to scare a bunch of college kids, under an anyonomous name, offering little support beyond "you'll just have to trust me." If you can fill in the gaps of your argument, maybe. But you are not giving real support beyond generalizations that I interpret as personal opinions.

You are making false inferences of my statements. I don't mind having a conversation, but please read my posts attentively and post based on what is actually said.

Don't let these naysayers ruin your dream of becoming a lawyer or perhaps a "scholar" or you know, if you strike out of biglaw, a cushy professor job. They just know this one guy and that's totally unreliable.

anyway, when you are in town joining some OWS type protest in 4 years, let us know! we'd love to hear about your many fine scholarly pursuits.

[Tiago Splitter]

Saying that nobody uses that tactic is wrong, regardless of what schools are being compared. The fact that you think neither school has employment prospects is irrelevant to your original statement.

Thank you for knocking over that straw man. You've definitely won this debate.

[Richie Tenenbaum]

I think my Professor's and adviser's have my best interests in mind. They are honest about job prospects, especially about the dwindling market for history Phd's. It does not benefit them at all to have me go to law school and not practice law. That would hurt the employment rates. I tend to think people working in the law and academic fields do have a better understanding of things than strangers inciting others on an internet forum. The adviser for my thesis openly told me that you can't take out 100k in loans in this economy and that going into debt for a law degree is a bad decision. It looks good for them to have students that succeed, right? So advising them to chase a career that would not pan out is unwise and counterproductive. They are not pushing people to get history or art history Phd's right now. Maybe your Professor's and adviser's are different, but mine are honest about the job prospects.

69% got jobs as lawyers. But not all law students WANT to be lawyers. Others want to teach. Others want to be scholars. Others want to become administrators. A much BETTER statistic to provide is a comparision of those who want to be lawyers and those who become lawyers. If you have those numbers, I would be interested in seeing them.

TLS may not be an accurate depiction of things as a whole, though. I don't rely on ancedotal evidence, which is what you are providing at this juncture. Well, these people that I read about online, who SAY they have x stats, went to x school, graduated at x %...I don't know, but I don't think people are always completely honest. Maybe people are trying to discourage competition. Like I said, certain fields of law are expanding. You are making a generalization of an entire profession, without evidence or accurate evidence. Sorry, but so many people on here say "x school must have poor employment prospects, because this one guy I know..."

I did not say 33-50% have "good jobs." Honestly, after working full time, I consider most careers that have benefits and security "good jobs." I am not relying on people being lazy. I do remember clearly stating I am willing to put in the work. Feel free to re read if you are seeking any clarity. I would hate to see a false inference.

I am saying conditions differ per environment, and you are not taking that into consideration. The law market in my region did not take much of a hit. And, again, I can not trust a guy who comes onto a board, looking to scare a bunch of college kids, under an anyonomous name, offering little support beyond "you'll just have to trust me." If you can fill in the gaps of your argument, maybe. But you are not giving real support beyond generalizations that I interpret as personal opinions.

You are making false inferences of my statements. I don't mind having a conversation, but please read my posts attentively and post based on what is actually said.

No offense to your professors and advisors, but they just not be completely aware of the condition of the legal market, seeing as it has changed significantly in the last ~4 years. The market being horrible for PhD's in the humanities is not a recent development...it's been this way for awhile.

I would be very surprised if many of the law professors at my law school really knew how hard it is to get a job right now, and how bad it is out there. (And I don't mean this a negative to them--i've been more than happy with how great my professors have been.) Keep in mind, the professors are more likely to have more contact with more of the "star" students who aren't as effected as much by the shit economy. Also keep in mind: the majority of law professors come from top schools and had top grades. These are not the people who were worried about getting any legal job whatsoever.

I have a job lined up for 2L summer and I've been very happy with my decision to attend law school so far. But that doesn't mean the economy isn't shit right now. My advice is to try and limit your debt as much as possible and try to attend the best (or one of the best) schools in the region in which you want to practice. OP is ridiculous in advising people to not attend HYS or a T14 with a significant scholarship, but his doomsday message contains some truth in it.

[JCougar]

Regardless of the merit of the OP, I appreciate how this thread shifts the Overton window.

The bottom line is that the debt-to-job-prospects ratio regarding law school right now is so bad that even going to a top 5% institution (the top 10 out of 200) according to prestige is a risky proposition if you're paying sticker. Even if you do get biglaw, the debt is so enormous that you basically have to stick around in Biglaw for 5-6 years to make a serious dent in it (if you're paying sticker, and especially if you're working in NYC where your living expenses will be extremely high). I'm not sure what percentage of people in Biglaw stick around that long, but I doubt it's a lot higher than 50%, if not less.

The PhD job market is different because people aren't being cast upon the job market with crippling debt. Usually, you get paid to get a PhD. Thus, you can have an OK life if you only make $40K when you get out.

Law school simply should not be as expensive as it is. They are capitalizing on taking advantage of people's dreams and then forcing many to fail. The actual value you get out of the law school curriculum is very small. You get almost no feedback and coaching, and class time does not teach you how to be a lawyer. Virtually all the learning you do is on your own.