Fordham/90,000$ vs. T14/More Debt

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WhiteGuy5
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Fordham/90,000$ vs. T14/More Debt

Postby WhiteGuy5 » Sat Oct 15, 2011 4:54 pm

In thinking and rethinking this cycle, I might be faced with having to choose between Fordham/Graduating with only $90k in debt/staying in NYC/having the option of staying home instead of paying for room and board/ vs. going to a T14 (probably a lower T14) and graduating with more debt/presumptively better placement prospects.

Anyone on TLS want to offer me some advice and the rational for it?

Fordham has the benefit of being in NYC and giving me time to network, but I'd still have to place somewhere in the top 25% of the class (i'm making up this number, feel free to offer a counter number) to have decent job prospects.

A lower T14 brings with it the "prestige" of going to a T14 and (here is me being presumptive again) having better job prospects.

Feel free to tell me what decision you would make and why.

justiceleague
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Re: Fordham/90,000$ vs. T14/More Debt

Postby justiceleague » Sat Oct 15, 2011 5:05 pm

let's be real, would you be okay with living at home for 3 more years?

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Detrox
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Re: Fordham/90,000$ vs. T14/More Debt

Postby Detrox » Sat Oct 15, 2011 5:10 pm

I would need more info. How much more debt? Are you aiming for Biglaw? Planning to stay in NYC for foreseeable future and long term?

Offhand, I'd have to say take Fordham if you're willing to stay at home for 3 years and plan to stay in NYC. If you get median there you'll have a tough time hitting Biglaw, but ITE median at lower T-14 does not seem leaps and bounds superior. NYC home field advantage may counter any prestige boost from T-14 schools. Furthermore theres the chance of doing really well enough at Fordham and transfering to NYU or Columbia if you have very high aims (although I'm not sure if comparatively it will be any easier to do this from Fordham vs. a low T-14).

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Re: Fordham/90,000$ vs. T14/More Debt

Postby WhiteGuy5 » Sat Oct 15, 2011 5:26 pm

Detrox wrote:I would need more info. How much more debt? Are you aiming for Biglaw? Planning to stay in NYC for foreseeable future and long term?

Offhand, I'd have to say take Fordham if you're willing to stay at home for 3 years and plan to stay in NYC. If you get median there you'll have a tough time hitting Biglaw, but ITE median at lower T-14 does not seem leaps and bounds superior. NYC home field advantage may counter any prestige boost from T-14 schools. Furthermore theres the chance of doing really well enough at Fordham and transfering to NYU or Columbia if you have very high aims (although I'm not sure if comparatively it will be any easier to do this from Fordham vs. a low T-14).


Yes I would be willing to stay at home for another 3 years (or 2 of the 3). It's a purely economic decision for me. My aim is definitely big law.

Thanks for the advice. Numbers-wise, I would be above Fordham's numbers in both GPA and LSAT. Is it safe to assume that I would be ahead of the average student (presumably in the top 15% of the class)?

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Re: Fordham/90,000$ vs. T14/More Debt

Postby 071816 » Sat Oct 15, 2011 5:30 pm

WhiteGuy5 wrote:
Detrox wrote:I would need more info. How much more debt? Are you aiming for Biglaw? Planning to stay in NYC for foreseeable future and long term?

Offhand, I'd have to say take Fordham if you're willing to stay at home for 3 years and plan to stay in NYC. If you get median there you'll have a tough time hitting Biglaw, but ITE median at lower T-14 does not seem leaps and bounds superior. NYC home field advantage may counter any prestige boost from T-14 schools. Furthermore theres the chance of doing really well enough at Fordham and transfering to NYU or Columbia if you have very high aims (although I'm not sure if comparatively it will be any easier to do this from Fordham vs. a low T-14).


Yes I would be willing to stay at home for another 3 years (or 2 of the 3). It's a purely economic decision for me. My aim is definitely big law.

Thanks for the advice. Numbers-wise, I would be above Fordham's numbers in both GPA and LSAT. Is it safe to assume that I would be ahead of the average student (presumably in the top 15% of the class)?


No.

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Re: Fordham/90,000$ vs. T14/More Debt

Postby kaiser » Sat Oct 15, 2011 5:34 pm

chimp wrote:
WhiteGuy5 wrote:
Detrox wrote:I would need more info. How much more debt? Are you aiming for Biglaw? Planning to stay in NYC for foreseeable future and long term?

Offhand, I'd have to say take Fordham if you're willing to stay at home for 3 years and plan to stay in NYC. If you get median there you'll have a tough time hitting Biglaw, but ITE median at lower T-14 does not seem leaps and bounds superior. NYC home field advantage may counter any prestige boost from T-14 schools. Furthermore theres the chance of doing really well enough at Fordham and transfering to NYU or Columbia if you have very high aims (although I'm not sure if comparatively it will be any easier to do this from Fordham vs. a low T-14).


Yes I would be willing to stay at home for another 3 years (or 2 of the 3). It's a purely economic decision for me. My aim is definitely big law.

Thanks for the advice. Numbers-wise, I would be above Fordham's numbers in both GPA and LSAT. Is it safe to assume that I would be ahead of the average student (presumably in the top 15% of the class)?


No.


+1

It is absolutely NOT safe to assume such a thing. It isn't safe to assume you will be above median, let alone top 15%. If you don't understand the reasons for this, you must do more research before making a hasty decision. I know far too many big scholarship kids from Ivy undergrads that ended up at or below median. Don't ever make assumptions like the one you mentioned because law school is nothing like undergrad.

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Re: Fordham/90,000$ vs. T14/More Debt

Postby WhiteGuy5 » Sat Oct 15, 2011 5:43 pm

kaiser wrote:
chimp wrote:
WhiteGuy5 wrote:
Detrox wrote:I would need more info. How much more debt? Are you aiming for Biglaw? Planning to stay in NYC for foreseeable future and long term?

Offhand, I'd have to say take Fordham if you're willing to stay at home for 3 years and plan to stay in NYC. If you get median there you'll have a tough time hitting Biglaw, but ITE median at lower T-14 does not seem leaps and bounds superior. NYC home field advantage may counter any prestige boost from T-14 schools. Furthermore theres the chance of doing really well enough at Fordham and transfering to NYU or Columbia if you have very high aims (although I'm not sure if comparatively it will be any easier to do this from Fordham vs. a low T-14).


Yes I would be willing to stay at home for another 3 years (or 2 of the 3). It's a purely economic decision for me. My aim is definitely big law.

Thanks for the advice. Numbers-wise, I would be above Fordham's numbers in both GPA and LSAT. Is it safe to assume that I would be ahead of the average student (presumably in the top 15% of the class)?


No.


+1

It is absolutely NOT safe to assume such a thing. It isn't safe to assume you will be above median, let alone top 15%. If you don't understand the reasons for this, you must do more research before making a hasty decision. I know far too many big scholarship kids from Ivy undergrads that ended up at or below median. Don't ever make assumptions like the one you mentioned because law school is nothing like undergrad.


So the LSAT is not a good indicator of future performance in law school?

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WhiteGuy5
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Re: Fordham/90,000$ vs. T14/More Debt

Postby WhiteGuy5 » Sat Oct 15, 2011 5:46 pm

Let me rephrase that: I think I would do about the same whether I went to Fordham or a lower T14. That is more of a self-evaluation than my attempt to predict if I'm smarter than most of Fordham 1L. So if I'm placing median at Fordham, I'll be placing median at NU or Cornell.

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Re: Fordham/90,000$ vs. T14/More Debt

Postby kaiser » Sat Oct 15, 2011 5:49 pm

Much smarter to assume median and to assume consistent performance regardless of school. And you are right that LSAT isn't a good indicator. The top kid in one of the 1L sections at my school got in off the waitlist with a very low LSAT, destroyed the competition and transferred into Harvard.

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Re: Fordham/90,000$ vs. T14/More Debt

Postby NYC Law » Sat Oct 15, 2011 5:53 pm

WhiteGuy5 wrote:Let me rephrase that: I think I would do about the same whether I went to Fordham or a lower T14. That is more of a self-evaluation than my attempt to predict if I'm smarter than most of Fordham 1L. So if I'm placing median at Fordham, I'll be placing median at NU or Cornell.


Median at any of those schools will leave you with no job through OCI and scrambling for something. Might as well go to Fordham and save a few bucks.

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Re: Fordham/90,000$ vs. T14/More Debt

Postby WhiteGuy5 » Sat Oct 15, 2011 5:59 pm

NYC Law wrote:
WhiteGuy5 wrote:Let me rephrase that: I think I would do about the same whether I went to Fordham or a lower T14. That is more of a self-evaluation than my attempt to predict if I'm smarter than most of Fordham 1L. So if I'm placing median at Fordham, I'll be placing median at NU or Cornell.


Median at any of those schools will leave you with no job through OCI and scrambling for something. Might as well go to Fordham and save a few bucks.


So anyone that is placing median or below at any of the lower T14s is not getting a big law job?

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Re: Fordham/90,000$ vs. T14/More Debt

Postby NYC Law » Sat Oct 15, 2011 6:02 pm

WhiteGuy5 wrote:
NYC Law wrote:
WhiteGuy5 wrote:Let me rephrase that: I think I would do about the same whether I went to Fordham or a lower T14. That is more of a self-evaluation than my attempt to predict if I'm smarter than most of Fordham 1L. So if I'm placing median at Fordham, I'll be placing median at NU or Cornell.


Median at any of those schools will leave you with no job through OCI and scrambling for something. Might as well go to Fordham and save a few bucks.


So anyone that is placing median or below at any of the lower T14s is not getting a big law job?


Nope, not without decent connections.

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Re: Fordham/90,000$ vs. T14/More Debt

Postby Pato_09 » Sat Oct 15, 2011 6:02 pm

Not true. I know several people from my school (lower T-14), below the median, with a big law job.

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Re: Fordham/90,000$ vs. T14/More Debt

Postby Detrox » Sat Oct 15, 2011 6:11 pm

NYC Law wrote:
WhiteGuy5 wrote:
NYC Law wrote:
WhiteGuy5 wrote:Let me rephrase that: I think I would do about the same whether I went to Fordham or a lower T14. That is more of a self-evaluation than my attempt to predict if I'm smarter than most of Fordham 1L. So if I'm placing median at Fordham, I'll be placing median at NU or Cornell.


Median at any of those schools will leave you with no job through OCI and scrambling for something. Might as well go to Fordham and save a few bucks.


So anyone that is placing median or below at any of the lower T14s is not getting a big law job?


Nope, not without decent connections.


This isn't flatly true, however despite the exaggeration the point is that it certainly isn't easy or common to get big law at <50% t-14 and so your decision should be influenced accordingly. I think the LSAT is a semi-decent predictor of law school capability, but there are hundreds of factors which can alter your (or your classmates') performance and so you can't rely on any acheivements prior to law school as guarenteeing your success as a 1L.


With your answers, I think Fordham is the right choice given the specific hypothetical situation. I wouldn't be surprized if you got a rash of people suggesting not to go to law school (or at least to retake if your lsat is the reason you're not in upper t-14 or getting aid money), and while I'm very pro-"go with your gut and attend law school" relative to most ppl on these boards, it's still something to consider if your decision is "purely economic."

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Re: Fordham/90,000$ vs. T14/More Debt

Postby rayiner » Sat Oct 15, 2011 6:13 pm

NYC Law wrote:
WhiteGuy5 wrote:Let me rephrase that: I think I would do about the same whether I went to Fordham or a lower T14. That is more of a self-evaluation than my attempt to predict if I'm smarter than most of Fordham 1L. So if I'm placing median at Fordham, I'll be placing median at NU or Cornell.


Median at any of those schools will leave you with no job through OCI and scrambling for something. Might as well go to Fordham and save a few bucks.


At NU for C/O 2012, median wasn't safe for big law but it wasn't out of the running either. I know several people who were well below median and got jobs. I also know people above median who didn't... word is about 60% got something out of OCI, which sounds about right judging by my own observations.

To answer the OP's question, the expected return from going to a T14 versus Fordham is way more than $90k. Say 25% of Fordham gets big law versus 60% of NU or Cornell. Say $45k is the non-big law alternative. Expected earnings for the first three years after school:

T14 = 160k * 3 * 0.60 + 45k * 3 * (1 - 0.60) = 342k
Fordham = 160 * 3 * 0.25 + 45 * 3 * (1 - 0.25) = 221k

Ie: your expected return over three years going to the T14 is about $120k over going to Fordham, outweighing the $90k difference in cost.

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Re: Fordham/90,000$ vs. T14/More Debt

Postby NYC Law » Sat Oct 15, 2011 6:20 pm

rayiner wrote:
NYC Law wrote:
WhiteGuy5 wrote:Let me rephrase that: I think I would do about the same whether I went to Fordham or a lower T14. That is more of a self-evaluation than my attempt to predict if I'm smarter than most of Fordham 1L. So if I'm placing median at Fordham, I'll be placing median at NU or Cornell.


Median at any of those schools will leave you with no job through OCI and scrambling for something. Might as well go to Fordham and save a few bucks.


At NU for C/O 2012, median wasn't safe for big law but it wasn't out of the running either. I know several people who were well below median and got jobs. I also know people above median who didn't... word is about 60% got something out of OCI, which sounds about right judging by my own observations.

To answer the OP's question, the expected return from going to a T14 versus Fordham is way more than $90k. Say 25% of Fordham gets big law versus 60% of NU or Cornell. Say $45k is the non-big law alternative. Expected earnings for the first three years after school:

T14 = 160k * 3 * 0.60 + 45k * 3 * (1 - 0.60) = 342k
Fordham = 160 * 3 * 0.25 + 45 * 3 * (1 - 0.25) = 221k

Ie: your expected return over three years going to the T14 is about $120k over going to Fordham, outweighing the $90k difference in cost.


This is pretty solid too. I'm just a little shell shocked after the new OCI thread, MVPB seems to really be struggling. It's starting to seem more and more about class rank rather than school rank, at least compared to the 0L impressions.

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Re: Fordham/90,000$ vs. T14/More Debt

Postby crazyblink653 » Sat Oct 15, 2011 6:25 pm

if you want NYC big law, then fordham will get you there. the only difference between fordham and T14 is that your margin of error is much smaller. looking at the employment threads this year it seems like you'd need top 25% at fordham to have a decent shot, whereas you'd have the same shot finishing around median somewhere like Cornell. keep in mind, though, that not all T14s are created equal...Cornell places pretty well, but i think a lot of that has to do with their smaller-than-average class size. meanwhile, a similarly ranked school like georgetown struggles to place as well because their class size is three times as big.

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Re: Fordham/90,000$ vs. T14/More Debt

Postby Pato_09 » Sat Oct 15, 2011 6:28 pm

Just make sure you understand how hard it is to finish top 25% at Fordham - it is very hard to predict your 1L success.

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Re: Fordham/90,000$ vs. T14/More Debt

Postby Detrox » Sat Oct 15, 2011 6:31 pm

rayiner wrote:
NYC Law wrote:
WhiteGuy5 wrote:Let me rephrase that: I think I would do about the same whether I went to Fordham or a lower T14. That is more of a self-evaluation than my attempt to predict if I'm smarter than most of Fordham 1L. So if I'm placing median at Fordham, I'll be placing median at NU or Cornell.


Median at any of those schools will leave you with no job through OCI and scrambling for something. Might as well go to Fordham and save a few bucks.


At NU for C/O 2012, median wasn't safe for big law but it wasn't out of the running either. I know several people who were well below median and got jobs. I also know people above median who didn't... word is about 60% got something out of OCI, which sounds about right judging by my own observations.

To answer the OP's question, the expected return from going to a T14 versus Fordham is way more than $90k. Say 25% of Fordham gets big law versus 60% of NU or Cornell. Say $45k is the non-big law alternative. Expected earnings for the first three years after school:

T14 = 160k * 3 * 0.60 + 45k * 3 * (1 - 0.60) = 342k
Fordham = 160 * 3 * 0.25 + 45 * 3 * (1 - 0.25) = 221k

Ie: your expected return over three years going to the T14 is about $120k over going to Fordham, outweighing the $90k difference in cost.


If these numbers were hard, I'd agree and tell OP to ignore my previous advice. But I think, A. presuming 45k is the alternative (as opposed to some more valuable alternatives like $135k midlaw which may extend down to the Fordham median). B. Even if my point in A is too generous going all the way to the median, I think flat 60% vs. flat 25% just doesn't seem accurate, especially for NYC biglaw where I think Fordham may be valued if compared to a Duke or GULC student.

That all being said, at the very least the choice is not as easy as I originally presented it and with actual data similar to the estimations above I admit my advice is wrong on purely economic considerations.

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Re: Fordham/90,000$ vs. T14/More Debt

Postby rayiner » Sat Oct 15, 2011 7:13 pm

Detrox wrote:
rayiner wrote:
NYC Law wrote:
WhiteGuy5 wrote:Let me rephrase that: I think I would do about the same whether I went to Fordham or a lower T14. That is more of a self-evaluation than my attempt to predict if I'm smarter than most of Fordham 1L. So if I'm placing median at Fordham, I'll be placing median at NU or Cornell.


Median at any of those schools will leave you with no job through OCI and scrambling for something. Might as well go to Fordham and save a few bucks.


At NU for C/O 2012, median wasn't safe for big law but it wasn't out of the running either. I know several people who were well below median and got jobs. I also know people above median who didn't... word is about 60% got something out of OCI, which sounds about right judging by my own observations.

To answer the OP's question, the expected return from going to a T14 versus Fordham is way more than $90k. Say 25% of Fordham gets big law versus 60% of NU or Cornell. Say $45k is the non-big law alternative. Expected earnings for the first three years after school:

T14 = 160k * 3 * 0.60 + 45k * 3 * (1 - 0.60) = 342k
Fordham = 160 * 3 * 0.25 + 45 * 3 * (1 - 0.25) = 221k

Ie: your expected return over three years going to the T14 is about $120k over going to Fordham, outweighing the $90k difference in cost.


If these numbers were hard, I'd agree and tell OP to ignore my previous advice. But I think, A. presuming 45k is the alternative (as opposed to some more valuable alternatives like $135k midlaw which may extend down to the Fordham median). B. Even if my point in A is too generous going all the way to the median, I think flat 60% vs. flat 25% just doesn't seem accurate, especially for NYC biglaw where I think Fordham may be valued if compared to a Duke or GULC student.

That all being said, at the very least the choice is not as easy as I originally presented it and with actual data similar to the estimations above I admit my advice is wrong on purely economic considerations.


There is almost no $135k mid law in NYC. Over the last decade most of the mid-size firms have been gobbled-up by out-of-town big law firms seeking to establish NYC presences. There are probably about 80 firms in NYC that pay market, and maybe another dozen firms that pay below market but above $100k. These firms hire very few people.

The $135k "mid law" that actually exists is big law in secondary markets. Market in Philadelphia, Atlanta, etc, is $135k. I would imagine Fordham's regional reputation would make it hard to get these jobs. These firms have their pick of the top of the class at their local schools and people who are median-ish at a T14. There is no reason for them to look at median students from Fordham.

As for flat 60% versus flat 25% --- I used 25% as a figure for Fordham because someone mentioned it earlier in the thread. I don't actually know how they're placing ITT. 60% is a reasonable figure for lower T14.

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Re: Fordham/90,000$ vs. T14/More Debt

Postby Detrox » Sat Oct 15, 2011 7:31 pm

[/quote]

There is almost no $135k mid law in NYC. Over the last decade most of the mid-size firms have been gobbled-up by out-of-town big law firms seeking to establish NYC presences. There are probably about 80 firms in NYC that pay market, and maybe another dozen firms that pay below market but above $100k. These firms hire very few people.

The $135k "mid law" that actually exists is big law in secondary markets. Market in Philadelphia, Atlanta, etc, is $135k. I would imagine Fordham's regional reputation would make it hard to get these jobs. These firms have their pick of the top of the class at their local schools and people who are median-ish at a T14. There is no reason for them to look at median students from Fordham.

As for flat 60% versus flat 25% --- I used 25% as a figure for Fordham because someone mentioned it earlier in the thread. I don't actually know how they're placing ITT. 60% is a reasonable figure for lower T14.[/quote]

Granting everything your saying, there is at least one inconsistency. If 60% of t-14 is getting big law, then no "medianish" students from t-14 are going to the midlaw jobs unless you mean self-selection or are saying bottom 1/3 is medianish. Additionally, I found the 25% to be more suspect then the 60% so I'm not sure if the earlier poster had any reason for that figure. Otherwise I'm not really trying to disagree with you, on the math alone with figures close to your estimates you are right and I was wrong as to OP's decision.

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Re: Fordham/90,000$ vs. T14/More Debt

Postby rayiner » Sat Oct 15, 2011 7:52 pm

Detrox wrote:Granting everything your saying, there is at least one inconsistency. If 60% of t-14 is getting big law, then no "medianish" students from t-14 are going to the midlaw jobs unless you mean self-selection or are saying bottom 1/3 is medianish.


Hiring doesn't go strictly by class rank. There are people well below median getting $160k jobs and people above median applying to non-OCI firms in secondary markets either by choice or by necessity.

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Re: Fordham/90,000$ vs. T14/More Debt

Postby MrAnon » Sat Oct 15, 2011 8:28 pm

You need to be solidly top 10% at Fordham for biglaw these days. You need to do pretty well at the bottom of the T14 to have a shot at biglaw.

I think you really need to ask yourself if you want to be a lawyer or if you just want to be a biglaw lawyer. It sounds like you want the latter. If thats the case just retake the LSAT until you get 180 and dont even think about rolling the dice on these schools.

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Re: Fordham/90,000$ vs. T14/More Debt

Postby Pato_09 » Sat Oct 15, 2011 8:38 pm

MrAnon wrote:You need to be solidly top 10% at Fordham for biglaw these days. You need to do pretty well at the bottom of the T14 to have a shot at biglaw.

I think you really need to ask yourself if you want to be a lawyer or if you just want to be a biglaw lawyer. It sounds like you want the latter. If thats the case just retake the LSAT until you get 180 and dont even think about rolling the dice on these schools.


Um ok.

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Re: Fordham/90,000$ vs. T14/More Debt

Postby WhiteGuy5 » Sun Oct 16, 2011 1:16 pm

MrAnon wrote:You need to be solidly top 10% at Fordham for biglaw these days. You need to do pretty well at the bottom of the T14 to have a shot at biglaw.

I think you really need to ask yourself if you want to be a lawyer or if you just want to be a biglaw lawyer. It sounds like you want the latter. If thats the case just retake the LSAT until you get 180 and dont even think about rolling the dice on these schools.


We had gone pretty far into the discussion before a douche showed up. This is probably a record for TLS.




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