Law school calculators?

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Student23
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Law school calculators?

Postby Student23 » Thu Oct 06, 2011 1:49 am

Hello all. I've recently been hitting these law school calculators pretty hard trying to come up with where I should apply and I feel a bit uneasy about placing so much reliance on the. Part of the issue is I am a reverse splitter (151 LSAT/3.85 GPA---first try I am retaking it ) Anyway I've mainly been using Law School Predictor and LSAC.org and I am struggling to get a clear vision of what to do. I know it's harder to get a read on splitters but from what I've read the numbers are not THAT skewed.

For example on LSAC.org I am given a 20% of admission to UNLV, but on LSP I get a "considered" rank and 46%. Very hard to understand, a similar issue with Rutgers. I'd love for that to be true but I highly doubt it, even though LSP seems to have a better reputation.

Are these calculators reliable or at least in the ball park of accurate?

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Hawkeye Pierce
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Re: Law school calculators?

Postby Hawkeye Pierce » Thu Oct 06, 2011 1:52 am

I honestly wouldn't give much stock to these predictors. The only source I use is LSN.

But yeah, I'm glad you're retaking it. You should not waste a 3.85GPA with such a low LSAT score.

Student23
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Re: Law school calculators?

Postby Student23 » Thu Oct 06, 2011 2:26 am

Well my issue is I have to re-take it in December and I still want to apply to schools I am in the ball park with a 151/3.85 combo. I know the lsat score is weighed much more heavily than the gpa, but it still buys me some leeway. I spoke with the admissions officer who gave me their official sheet of gpas vs lsats. The numbers of people in my lsat/gpa band evened out to a similar percentage to what I am getting from LSAC. I need some guidance as to where to apply and if I just use the LSAT median as an ironclad number I'm pretty much stuck apply at places like Ava Maria and Cooley.

Mal Reynolds
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Re: Law school calculators?

Postby Mal Reynolds » Thu Oct 06, 2011 2:36 am

Student23 wrote:Well my issue is I have to re-take it in December and I still want to apply to schools I am in the ball park with a 151/3.85 combo. I know the lsat score is weighed much more heavily than the gpa, but it still buys me some leeway. I spoke with the admissions officer who gave me their official sheet of gpas vs lsats. The numbers of people in my lsat/gpa band evened out to a similar percentage to what I am getting from LSAC. I need some guidance as to where to apply and if I just use the LSAT median as an ironclad number I'm pretty much stuck apply at places like Ava Maria and Cooley.


I think implicit in what you're saying is that you have to apply this year. Consensus on TLS is to take another year, it can only help your application.

And take what an admissions counselor is saying with a tremendous grain of salt. Ad comms want you to apply no matter if you are an auto-admit or even if you have no shot at getting in-it helps them either way. According to your LSAT you are definitely not going to any t-14 schools at this point. You should not bank on being below GPA/LSAT medians unless you have substantial soft factors to call your name to. Search these forums for examples of what good soft factors will be.

Long and short: retake. If I were in your position I would not be going to any school that would let me in with those numbers.

Student23
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Re: Law school calculators?

Postby Student23 » Thu Oct 06, 2011 3:37 am

I don't know, I feel as though I should be cynical but every possible law school calculator and number crunching platform out there is showing me pretty positive numbers for some schools I would like to go to. I forgot this is "top-law-schools"...the schools I am taking about are more along the lines of "decent-law-schools", which in my humble (and inexperienced) opinion are schools ranked from around 60-120.

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mapnoren
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Re: Law school calculators?

Postby mapnoren » Thu Oct 06, 2011 3:55 am

What people are trying to tell you is that you have a strong gpa. Why waste it with a sub-par lsat score? You might not like to hear it, but schools in the 60-120 range are not fairing well in this economy. I am a 3l and attend a T20 law school and have friends that are struggling to find work after graduation. I know it sucks to hear the words "take a year off," but if you do so and really dedicate your time to preparing for the LSAT (8-10 hours a day), you will most likely be able to improve your score. Please heed this advice.

Schola
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Re: Law school calculators?

Postby Schola » Thu Oct 06, 2011 8:54 am

Look at it from the perspective of the next 5 or 10 years, not the next 1 or 2. If you take a year off and improve your LSAT score significantly, you will get into a better law school and/or get more scholarship money. You will likely, therefore, have more options when you get out of law school, b/c of the reputation of your law school and/or b/c you won't be saddled with so much debt. And b/c there is a kind of "path dependency" (to borrow some political science jargon) in professional careers, getting a better first job coming out of law school--and here I am not only speaking about "better" in terms of money, but rather about having the freedom to do what you want to do and will find rewarding--will likely lead to a better second job, and so on.

In short, unless you are able to pull off something miraculous in the next 2 months, taking a year off now will pay significant dividends down the road.

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SisterRayVU
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Re: Law school calculators?

Postby SisterRayVU » Thu Oct 06, 2011 10:18 am

Student23 wrote:I don't know, I feel as though I should be cynical but every possible law school calculator and number crunching platform out there is showing me pretty positive numbers for some schools I would like to go to. I forgot this is "top-law-schools"...the schools I am taking about are more along the lines of "decent-law-schools", which in my humble (and inexperienced) opinion are schools ranked from around 60-120.


You're going to pay money to go to some of those schools and you won't be sure at all that you'll get a job to pay it back. You have a really good GPA, a good enough GPA that you can study for three months, bring up your LSAT to 165+, and get into a T-14 without a problem. If you score really well, you can get money. Maybe not at a T-14 but at WUSTL. So why not do what will increase your career security immensely?

03121202698008
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Re: Law school calculators?

Postby 03121202698008 » Thu Oct 06, 2011 10:21 am

Hawkeye Pierce wrote:I honestly wouldn't give much stock to these predictors. The only source I use is LSN.

But yeah, I'm glad you're retaking it. You should not waste a 3.85GPA with such a low LSAT score.


LSP uses LSN for data.

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YCrevolution
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Re: Law school calculators?

Postby YCrevolution » Thu Oct 06, 2011 12:15 pm

..

03121202698008
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Re: Law school calculators?

Postby 03121202698008 » Thu Oct 06, 2011 12:18 pm

YCrevolution wrote:
blowhard wrote:
Hawkeye Pierce wrote:I honestly wouldn't give much stock to these predictors. The only source I use is LSN.

But yeah, I'm glad you're retaking it. You should not waste a 3.85GPA with such a low LSAT score.


LSP uses LSN for data.

Some of it, mostly for adjusting for splitters and the like. For most of the lower-ranked schools where there is little LSN data, it's the admissions index formula (either the published one or the LSP-derived one) and the adjustment algorithms.


Ah, got it. Just remembered you saying something about LSN data before. Of course you're the expert on it...lol.

Student23
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Re: Law school calculators?

Postby Student23 » Mon Oct 10, 2011 11:54 am

Currently my plan is to re-take it in December, use a private tutor and hopefully see a boost of about 8 or 9 points. I know a few people who have done this who are not geniuses. If I don't get into the school I want, then I may re-consider what to do.

It would be a bit different if I was looking at other career options, but while this is off-topic, my inability to get any job with a 28k plus salary is highly influential in me getting out of this unemployment mess and into a real career. I know I need to score better, but I'm not sure I can handle living at my parents for another year. However I suppose I will be focused on law school only, and I could use my remaining college funds on one of those lsat intensive courses.

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coldshoulder
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Re: Law school calculators?

Postby coldshoulder » Mon Oct 10, 2011 12:55 pm

Student23 wrote:Currently my plan is to re-take it in December, use a private tutor and hopefully see a boost of about 8 or 9 points. I know a few people who have done this who are not geniuses. If I don't get into the school I want, then I may re-consider what to do.

It would be a bit different if I was looking at other career options, but while this is off-topic, my inability to get any job with a 28k plus salary is highly influential in me getting out of this unemployment mess and into a real career. I know I need to score better, but I'm not sure I can handle living at my parents for another year. However I suppose I will be focused on law school only, and I could use my remaining college funds on one of those lsat intensive courses.


How long have you been studying? I would highly recommend self-study until the February test, retake in June if necessary, then apply in October of the next cycle. Do something you would love to do over the next year, whether it's volunteering, maybe an internship, something affordable that will both look good and be fulfilling to you personally before heading to law school.

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SisterRayVU
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Re: Law school calculators?

Postby SisterRayVU » Mon Oct 10, 2011 1:08 pm

Student23 wrote:Currently my plan is to re-take it in December, use a private tutor and hopefully see a boost of about 8 or 9 points. I know a few people who have done this who are not geniuses. If I don't get into the school I want, then I may re-consider what to do.

It would be a bit different if I was looking at other career options, but while this is off-topic, my inability to get any job with a 28k plus salary is highly influential in me getting out of this unemployment mess and into a real career. I know I need to score better, but I'm not sure I can handle living at my parents for another year. However I suppose I will be focused on law school only, and I could use my remaining college funds on one of those lsat intensive courses.


If you improve to the mid 160s or better (obv), you'll have a decent shot at a T-14, I think. Cornell stands out as a good choice. Even tho Dec is later in the cycle, you can get to a good school. However only do this if you know you can score in the right range otherwise follow the other poster's advice and delay til next year.

Student23
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Re: Law school calculators?

Postby Student23 » Mon Oct 10, 2011 7:24 pm

Well what should I do then? Should I pay 2k for an intensive private tutor, take the lsat in december and apply or re-take in June?

My current plan is the former. But I will have everything in by late October. Then I plan to email some of the admissions officers and ask them to hold my scores until I re-take it. From what I've been reading that isn't exactly late but also not early, I can live with that.

I really feel like I could do better. I was in the middle of an unfortunate personal problem in the middle of the LSAT and to be honest I didn't take it as seriously as I do now. I have a learning disability which could qualify me for time and a half but there is so much red tape into getting that, I've resigned to just taking it normally. I don't think I can score in the mid 160s but I do think I can do high 150s and possibly low 160s. If I got the extra time I think I'd be looking at 165-170 but I'm not sure I even want to do that, I hate taking the easy way.

Again I really have a decent shot at some schools I like, but I have serious doubts on LSAC.org and Law School Predictor. I simply don't see people on LSN with my numbers going anywhere worth its salt. I want to trust LSAC and LSP but I just don't know if that is a smart move considering my natural "wishful thinking" in wanting those numbers to be true. That's why I came on here for an objective look.

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SisterRayVU
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Re: Law school calculators?

Postby SisterRayVU » Mon Oct 10, 2011 8:06 pm

Student23 wrote:Well what should I do then? Should I pay 2k for an intensive private tutor, take the lsat in december and apply or re-take in June?

My current plan is the former. But I will have everything in by late October. Then I plan to email some of the admissions officers and ask them to hold my scores until I re-take it. From what I've been reading that isn't exactly late but also not early, I can live with that.

I really feel like I could do better. I was in the middle of an unfortunate personal problem in the middle of the LSAT and to be honest I didn't take it as seriously as I do now. I have a learning disability which could qualify me for time and a half but there is so much red tape into getting that, I've resigned to just taking it normally. I don't think I can score in the mid 160s but I do think I can do high 150s and possibly low 160s. If I got the extra time I think I'd be looking at 165-170 but I'm not sure I even want to do that, I hate taking the easy way.

Again I really have a decent shot at some schools I like, but I have serious doubts on LSAC.org and Law School Predictor. I simply don't see people on LSN with my numbers going anywhere worth its salt. I want to trust LSAC and LSP but I just don't know if that is a smart move considering my natural "wishful thinking" in wanting those numbers to be true. That's why I came on here for an objective look.


What is your learning disability?

If anything LSP is going to be a little harsh because everyone reporting are people who ostensibly know about the internet, somehow stumbled upon that site, and probably found some good resources for studying. I don't think the median score on LSN is 154 or whatever, ya dig? However, it is self selecting so you won't find a lot of people who blanked out of all their top schools talking about going to a TTT. At the end of the day, though, it is a pretty accurate estimator and if you're actions are partially determined by a hope that they're wrong, you seriously need to reconsider what you're doing. You have cold hard facts, or as close to them as you're gonna come, staring you in the face. If there's nobody with your numbers going somewhere worth their time, why are you different?

Get your test up. If you can't do it this cycle, do it next. It'll be worth it in the end. It's rough advice to take and I know that if my Oct score sucks, I'm retaking in Dec and hoping that some schools will still be receptive to it even though it'll be a late application. But it's a risk and I'm definitely aware of it.

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coldshoulder
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Re: Law school calculators?

Postby coldshoulder » Mon Oct 10, 2011 8:41 pm

If you can't break 160 with intense studying, you probably shouldn't go to law school. I don't mean to be a dick, but how are you going to deal with law exams?

Student23
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Re: Law school calculators?

Postby Student23 » Mon Oct 10, 2011 11:21 pm

coldshoulder wrote:If you can't break 160 with intense studying, you probably shouldn't go to law school. I don't mean to be a dick, but how are you going to deal with law exams?


Mainly because I know many very successful lawyers who went to tier 4 schools. I don't know how they did on the LSAT but I know they are still driving BMW's even with their supposedly worthless degrees from Cooley and Capital.

Regardless, I've haven't done intense studying just yet on the LSAT. More like casual studying, a 151 isn't too bad. Not going to beat myself up over it even though I know there are people on here with 171s and such.

Student23
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Re: Law school calculators?

Postby Student23 » Mon Oct 10, 2011 11:37 pm

SisterRayVU wrote:
Student23 wrote:Well what should I do then? Should I pay 2k for an intensive private tutor, take the lsat in december and apply or re-take in June?

My current plan is the former. But I will have everything in by late October. Then I plan to email some of the admissions officers and ask them to hold my scores until I re-take it. From what I've been reading that isn't exactly late but also not early, I can live with that.

I really feel like I could do better. I was in the middle of an unfortunate personal problem in the middle of the LSAT and to be honest I didn't take it as seriously as I do now. I have a learning disability which could qualify me for time and a half but there is so much red tape into getting that, I've resigned to just taking it normally. I don't think I can score in the mid 160s but I do think I can do high 150s and possibly low 160s. If I got the extra time I think I'd be looking at 165-170 but I'm not sure I even want to do that, I hate taking the easy way.

Again I really have a decent shot at some schools I like, but I have serious doubts on LSAC.org and Law School Predictor. I simply don't see people on LSN with my numbers going anywhere worth its salt. I want to trust LSAC and LSP but I just don't know if that is a smart move considering my natural "wishful thinking" in wanting those numbers to be true. That's why I came on here for an objective look.


What is your learning disability?

If anything LSP is going to be a little harsh because everyone reporting are people who ostensibly know about the internet, somehow stumbled upon that site, and probably found some good resources for studying. I don't think the median score on LSN is 154 or whatever, ya dig? However, it is self selecting so you won't find a lot of people who blanked out of all their top schools talking about going to a TTT. At the end of the day, though, it is a pretty accurate estimator and if you're actions are partially determined by a hope that they're wrong, you seriously need to reconsider what you're doing. You have cold hard facts, or as close to them as you're gonna come, staring you in the face. If there's nobody with your numbers going somewhere worth their time, why are you different?

Get your test up. If you can't do it this cycle, do it next. It'll be worth it in the end. It's rough advice to take and I know that if my Oct score sucks, I'm retaking in Dec and hoping that some schools will still be receptive to it even though it'll be a late application. But it's a risk and I'm definitely aware of it.


I have ADHD and something called Non-verbal learning disabilities. They are killers on the GRE due to the math section, but my main issue is with the endurance aspect of the LSAT. Looking at my scores I clearly lost focus on the third section and couldn't completely finish things toward the end. That being said I don't expect any handouts because of a disability I have. They won't give me extra time in a court room, so I don't expect extra time on the test. I would still likely take it if they made it as easy as the GRE does, but it is extremely complicated and I would have to get re-tested etc. etc.

I crossed checked LSN with LSP/LSAC.org calculators and I found them to be very different. LSN shows people with my numbers as Cooley/Ave Maria types but LSP/LSAC.org shows me with a nice crop of about a dozen schools within the top 125 that I have at least 45% chances, which I find to be acceptable. I think some of these are skewed by "in-staters" and "part-timers" perhaps. I get pretty opposite views from the internet too, either the calculators are legit or they are garbage. Obviously as a splitter they will be slightly off, but are they 20%ish off? Don't know, guess only time will tell.

By the way, what is considered a "late-application"? Just curious because I see the majority of people finalizing everything by around January in many cases. I know a prof from one school I am looking at and she said their committee doesn't really start hitting their apps til after christmas.

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SisterRayVU
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Re: Law school calculators?

Postby SisterRayVU » Tue Oct 11, 2011 7:58 am

January is the absolute latest. If you know people who graduated from a TTT and have a great job, good for them. But in this economy, there are plenty of T1 grads who dont have work or dont have JD required work. Fifteen, twenty years ago, you could go to your local law school and be reasonably sure you'd get a decent job. Not so much anymore.

Student23
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Re: Law school calculators?

Postby Student23 » Tue Oct 11, 2011 1:22 pm

SisterRayVU wrote:January is the absolute latest. If you know people who graduated from a TTT and have a great job, good for them. But in this economy, there are plenty of T1 grads who dont have work or dont have JD required work. Fifteen, twenty years ago, you could go to your local law school and be reasonably sure you'd get a decent job. Not so much anymore.


Isn't that the case with all degrees though? Hell, 10 years ago if you had any degree, regardless of gpa or major you would be making minimum 35k and spend maybe 6-8 months job searching before you settled in. Now you have to have a good degree, from a good school, and graduate with honors or else you'll be screwed. So naturally this translates to the legal field.

But what is undeniable is that you will be better off with a JD, than without one. That is my opinion. I applied for a trainee program that paid 29k a year, and they gave it to a law grad. How can I compete with that with just a BA? If you can get in you should go, it's just a matter of putting yourself in the absolute best position which is what I am trying to do. If Cooley is the only place I can get in, so be it, but I feel as though I could go to a top 50 school and not have to break the bank to do it, thus I re-take the LSAT.

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Tiago Splitter
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Re: Law school calculators?

Postby Tiago Splitter » Tue Oct 11, 2011 1:47 pm

Student23 wrote:I applied for a trainee program that paid 29k a year, and they gave it to a law grad. .


This should tell you all you need to know.

You do understand that law school costs money, right?

Student23
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Re: Law school calculators?

Postby Student23 » Tue Oct 11, 2011 4:32 pm

Tiago Splitter wrote:
Student23 wrote:I applied for a trainee program that paid 29k a year, and they gave it to a law grad. .


This should tell you all you need to know.

You do understand that law school costs money, right?


That tells me that in order to have any sort of career, I need to go to law school. To you that means law school grad don't get paid that much. To me that means I need another degree simply to make any kind of wage at all outside of the food service industry.

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Tiago Splitter
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Re: Law school calculators?

Postby Tiago Splitter » Tue Oct 11, 2011 4:38 pm

Student23 wrote:
Tiago Splitter wrote:
Student23 wrote:I applied for a trainee program that paid 29k a year, and they gave it to a law grad. .


This should tell you all you need to know.

You do understand that law school costs money, right?


That tells me that in order to have any sort of career, I need to go to law school. To you that means law school grad don't get paid that much. To me that means I need another degree simply to make any kind of wage at all outside of the food service industry.


If you can fog a mirror you can come join me and MTal in the brokerage industry.

PersuasiveCharm
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Re: Law school calculators?

Postby PersuasiveCharm » Tue Oct 11, 2011 4:47 pm

I only go off of lawschoolnumbers.com




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