15 more law schools to be sued Forum

[PDaddy]

On my end, I am aiming for t14 and even then I am not sure if I will attend. My classmates though who have their sights set lower? I almost feel guilty that I am not telling them don't go to law school, even though in my head I think it.

Go ahead and tell them what's happening when you are away from class. Nothing wrong with that.

[kwais]

Serious question. Is getting a Master's in English Lit similar in your opinions? Their students earning potential is likely not improved by this degree? Is that fraudulent too or different?

[JusticeHarlan]

Serious question. Is getting a Master's in English Lit similar in your opinions? Their students earning potential is likely not improved by this degree? Is that fraudulent too or different?

It's fraudulent if the institution that wants you to pay them for the degree induces you to enroll based on a knowing misrepresentation or omission of key information, like employment date. If that Master's program claims a 92% employment rate with a median starting salary of $160,000 - yes, that's probably fraudulent. If they don't make outrageous claims like that, then no, it's probably not.

[lawbanshee]

The thing about this industry that most TLS kids don't understand is that "experience" and hard work do not usually translate into financial success in non-Biglaw "careers."

For example, say you strike out at OCI/Biglaw and decide to neverthless stay in law school, graduate, and take the bar. After you pass, you send 500,000 or so resumes to every online job posting you can find, eventually landing a job in some scholcky insurance defense boiler room for 40 K a year and "room for growth."

So you bust your ass, cut/paste more motions than anyone, grill and abuse the plaintiffs during fender bender depositions, take CLE's, even 2nd chair a trial or two.

After 3 years, you're up to making 55 K and getting fed up with all the work. Your Biglaw friends have already paid down/off loans, making 200 K or so w/ bonus, and getting headhunter calls to move in-house, etc. Your college friends who skipped law school are making the same as you or more, only w/out the massive loan debt. Some of them are buying homes, starting families etc., yet you're saving nothing and merely treading water with student loans. So you figure you'll "test the waters" and send out a few resumes. You figure "I've 2nd chaired trials, drafted substantive motions, taken depositions, etc. I'm not a newbie anymore and I'm worth a lot more than Shitstain LLC is paying me.

Trouble is, you're not. If you end up in a gutter area of law like insruance defense, you basically "top out" after 3 to 5 years. 60 K is pretty much top whack, unless you move to a HUGE insruance defense mill like WEMED:


http://www.wilsonelser.com/



WEMED pays about 65-70 K in NYC if you have 3 to 5 years of experience. They even take the occasional recent grad, just to pretend they're a "real" firm with like OCI and stuff. But fact is a first year associate at a V100 makes 50-70K more than a partner at WEMED with 15 years in the biz. That's simply the economics and caste system of law. Even the world's greatest, most experienced insruance defender can only bill out at $125 an hour or so, since carriers are very cheap and the work is mostly mindless cut n' paste.

[bluesplitter]

Lawyers come a dime a dozen these days.

The 20th century was kind to the lawyers, but by now the corporations are slowly squeezing lawyers out of the picture.

In texas, workers can't even get their day in court anymore when it comes to work place injuries or abuse, it has been regulated to the point that a worker has no real say in his predicament.

With tort reform in texas, the prospects look even worse for lawyers in malpractice, negligence, and injury law.

Now, if you want to just go to school get out, and get a job, get yourself a solid MBA from a top school. The 21st century is the age of corporates in America, and with the increased move towards globalization, you might be able to get some travelling in your work.


The truth is, with corporates squeezing out the lawyers, and the disappearence of the middle class, (new)lawyers will not have alot of choices, and it will be tough for atleast a decade. I know lawyers who graduated t30-15 , making 45-55k working for the governement to put people in jail for drugs and domestic violence. Some "flashy life" that is.


With all that said, iam going to law school to learn how to talk and persuade and run for office at a later date.

thats about it.

good luck yall, from the Texas Hill Country.

[Kirk]

Schools are being sued because their grads are crying big crocodile tears because they didn’t land a big gig? Really? And this is the school’s fault, is that it?

Did the school send someone to your home and pitch you hard, the way college coaches pitch kids to play for their team (with dreams of playing on Sunday). Everyone that didn’t end up in the pros must have one gigantic lawsuit in the works. C’mon!

There is an opening for $160K, you apply and do not get it. But someone else does. This is your law school’s fault? One hell of a lawsuit you have there.

[YourCaptain]

Not the point. Fact of the matter is I wouldn't put too much credence in these suits. It's a bunch of butthurt graduates who should have known better, willfully chose to ignore all the evidence to the contrary, were too lazy to work harder on the LSAT to get into a school worth attending, etc.

Although these are TTT schools, they still have the resources which include some truly brilliant legal minds. Hopefully the class' attorneys are doing this pro bono or on a contingent fee basis. Otherwise, a bunch of people in serious debt will only be in further debt.

Yes, the schools may be deceptive in their practices and may be guilty of false advertising. But they don't force you to attend these schools. Not that I am on the side of these TTToilets, but the writing has been on the wall for years. The law school scam is well known by now. Peruse this sight and you will find countless "3.1/153 What are my chances at Florida Coastal and am NOT retaking" threads. They all share the same arrogant thick-headed demeanor. Do I think it's morally/ethically wrong for these schools to deceive these students? Yes. But don't be mad because you disregarded all of the evidence that the schools were misleading applicants.

Schools are being sued because their grads are crying big crocodile tears because they didn’t land a big gig? Really? And this is the school’s fault, is that it?

Did the school send someone to your home and pitch you hard, the way college coaches pitch kids to play for their team (with dreams of playing on Sunday). Everyone that didn’t end up in the pros must have one gigantic lawsuit in the works. C’mon!

There is an opening for $160K, you apply and do not get it. But someone else does. This is your law school’s fault? One hell of a lawsuit you have there.

why are you so dumb?

[paratactical]

Schools are being sued because their grads are crying big crocodile tears because they didn’t land a big gig? Really? And this is the school’s fault, is that it?

Did the school send someone to your home and pitch you hard, the way college coaches pitch kids to play for their team (with dreams of playing on Sunday). Everyone that didn’t end up in the pros must have one gigantic lawsuit in the works. C’mon!

There is an opening for $160K, you apply and do not get it. But someone else does. This is your law school’s fault? One hell of a lawsuit you have there.

I'm pretty sure that the point is that the schools are acused of knowingly lying about employment rates and salaries, which makes it incredibly difficult to make an informed decision about how much debt the degrees are worth.

I do think people need to be held accountable for the debt they choose to take on, but I also think educational institutions should be required to provide accurate information to potential students.

[CanadianWolf]

The Justice Dept. has already pursued private colleges & universities on similiar grounds of lying about employment prospects & salaries for their graduates.

[observationalist]

The Justice Dept. has already pursued private colleges & universities on similiar grounds of lying about employment prospects & salaries for their graduates.

You mean for-profit, not private correct? And yeah, one of the other possible routes worth taking aside from these lawsuits is to get the same team of investigators looking at law schools. They've been approached about investigating law schools before but haven't to our knowledge decided to move forward with an investigation. I wonder how many ABA-approved schools would need to get hit with lawsuits before the DoJ (or FTC) would get involved. Half? a third? Once these 15 get filed we'll be at nearly 10%... maybe that's enough?

[Kirk]

A friend of a friend just finished law school and six months later had to settle for a $30K (draw) job selling insurance. If the school learns of his employment, datawise they can claim him as one of their success stories.

As an earlier poster noted, the ABA (or some government branch with authority) needs to create a definition of employment that is more truthful than misleading.

What if this (a truthful definition) were accomplished at the state level (using a state with numerous law schools, like NY). NY schools would be greatly disadvantaged in competing against other schools utilizing the loophole. For instance, what if Cornel could only report 70% employment after 9 months while Texas could continue to report 95% employment, and Georgetown 97.1%. The NY schools (there are a lot of them) would demand that the ABA level the playing field. Problem solved.

[minnbills]

Where did this friend go to school?

[CanadianWolf]

The schools are private, for-profit post secondary schools.

[lawbanshee]

A friend of a friend just finished law school and six months later had to settle for a $30K (draw) job selling insurance. If the school learns of his employment, datawise they can claim him as one of their success stories.

It's amazing how many people from my class NEVER found attoney jobs at all and simply went into non-legal right off the bat. One girl got her real estate broker's license, 3 other friends did TeachNYC, others went into sales, etc.

As I said, even back then it was a struggle to land a 45 K a year job in NYC or NJ. Back then that was what all the little mom n' pop insurance defense firms (Leahey & Johnson, Frieberg & Peck, Stern & Montana, Peter Marani & Associates, McDonnell Adeles, etc) paid- every one of them was 45 K to start, hours 8:30 am to 7 pm M-F, two Saturdays a month, and no paid CLE or bar dues.

Now a lot of those places are "gone" (meaning they no longer have associates, they just hire a calendar service to answer the call and stip out/settle these worthless files) since there's drastically fewer cases to defend anymore. No one even brings soft tissue (whiplash) cases anymore, since the carriers got together and decided to fight everything to the death. Plaintiff's shops started giving up and closing down, and the former insurance defenders like me just drifted into doc review since you can't really "lateral" worthless insurance defense experience anywhere else. (If you look around lawjobs you'll see a lot of ads that state "No insurance defense attorneys need apply" and things like that. ID is the absolute bottom of the barrel and rpetty much teh laughingstock of the industry.

[Cartman]

Just curious, but could you answer these questions for us? What law school did you attend and what was your approximate rank?

No problem: 2002 Brooklyn grad, top 1/3, secondary journal, dual NY/NJ admitted.

Hmm. So you went to a T-2 school in a city inflated with law schools (and better ones at that, i.e. NYU), decided paying sticker? close to sticker? enough to rack up 100k in debt? and are now complaining because you can't afford to live in said city where renting a broom closet is $1,000 a month? Cry me a river. Grow up.

@the comment about getting 200k in debt: why the fuck are you getting 200k in debt? I would never even CONSIDER a school that would require getting 200k in debt. I hear merit aid is hard to come by? Friend of mine last cycle got 20k/yr knocked off from a T-20 with a 167 and a 3.15 in a city where cost of living is dirt cheap.

It's GOOD these schools are getting called out for the shitholes they are. But there's a big difference between T-30 and Cooley. Oh, and just because you went to a T-30 doesn't automatically grant you a fat job either. So of course the bottom 5% are gonna have issues. Work hard. Make connections. Go to a good school. Get in the top %. Don't complain. Profit.

[3ThrowAway99]

--LinkRemoved--

If you are paying $$ for anything below the T14....you are getting SCREWED.

Edit: For some reason when you click on that link, it doesn't work, but if you copy it and paste it into your browser, it will take you directly to the LST website.

Dude, you're still around.. F*** yeah MTal... rock on brah

[DoubleChecks]

Just curious, but could you answer these questions for us? What law school did you attend and what was your approximate rank?

No problem: 2002 Brooklyn grad, top 1/3, secondary journal, dual NY/NJ admitted.

Hmm. So you went to a T-2 school in a city inflated with law schools (and better ones at that, i.e. NYU), decided paying sticker? close to sticker? enough to rack up 100k in debt? and are now complaining because you can't afford to live in said city where renting a broom closet is $1,000 a month? Cry me a river. Grow up.

@the comment about getting 200k in debt: why the fuck are you getting 200k in debt? I would never even CONSIDER a school that would require getting 200k in debt. I hear merit aid is hard to come by? Friend of mine last cycle got 20k/yr knocked off from a T-20 with a 167 and a 3.15 in a city where cost of living is dirt cheap.

It's GOOD these schools are getting called out for the shitholes they are. But there's a big difference between T-30 and Cooley. Oh, and just because you went to a T-30 doesn't automatically grant you a fat job either. So of course the bottom 5% are gonna have issues. Work hard. Make connections. Go to a good school. Get in the top %. Don't complain. Profit.

Wow whoever mentioned a lot of cognitive dissonance in this thread earlier hit the jackpot. People raging at others in fear of their own insecurities -- even slightly distorting the msg of what their "opponents" are saying.

Now I'm not saying I completely agree with lawbanshee and MTal -- I think they are too extreme. But to be fair, taking their advice with a grain of salt and at least considering it would help out a lot of law students who are in/going to be in tough situations. What's the harm in being more prepared and doing more fact-checking/research? Lawbanshee seems to have more actual experience than 80% of the ppl on TLS, and while he may be very biased...might be hitting closer to the truth than many attending lower ranked law schools would like to believe [insert your own definition of what lower ranked means here -- whatever helps you sleep at night].

So apparently grown up Cartman, I don't think Lawbanshee was complaining about his life as much as he was "passionately" warning others away from it. And he did graduate in 2002 (different world then).

And I don't think you and him are in disagreement about the $200k in debt part necessarily -- of course you should take into consideration debt/scholarship money/stipulations. However, the truth of the matter is, many 0Ls do NOT take that into consideration and make poor choices. Hence, they may find themselves in the situation Lawbanshee is warning about (striking out 2L yr in a TT w/ $200k in debt). Once again, I don't think you two are necessarily in disagreement here.

Finally...the bolded...um, I think at a T30, much more than only the bottom 5% will have to worry about jobs hahahahaha.

[luthersloan]

A friend of a friend just finished law school and six months later had to settle for a $30K (draw) job selling insurance. If the school learns of his employment, datawise they can claim him as one of their success stories.

It's amazing how many people from my class NEVER found attoney jobs at all and simply went into non-legal right off the bat. One girl got her real estate broker's license, 3 other friends did TeachNYC, others went into sales, etc.

As I said, even back then it was a struggle to land a 45 K a year job in NYC or NJ. Back then that was what all the little mom n' pop insurance defense firms (Leahey & Johnson, Frieberg & Peck, Stern & Montana, Peter Marani & Associates, McDonnell Adeles, etc) paid- every one of them was 45 K to start, hours 8:30 am to 7 pm M-F, two Saturdays a month, and no paid CLE or bar dues.

Now a lot of those places are "gone" (meaning they no longer have associates, they just hire a calendar service to answer the call and stip out/settle these worthless files) since there's drastically fewer cases to defend anymore. No one even brings soft tissue (whiplash) cases anymore, since the carriers got together and decided to fight everything to the death. Plaintiff's shops started giving up and closing down, and the former insurance defenders like me just drifted into doc review since you can't really "lateral" worthless insurance defense experience anywhere else. (If you look around lawjobs you'll see a lot of ads that state "No insurance defense attorneys need apply" and things like that. ID is the absolute bottom of the barrel and rpetty much teh laughingstock of the industry.

Bro, are you areyouinsane?

[lawbanshee]

Bro, are you areyouinsane?

WTF, why do you guys think everyone on doc review is "insane"? It seems like many on this board try to discredit the notion that doc review could ever "happen" to them, since they have some secret game plan that involves "working hard" and "networking," along with the completely ridiculous idea that governenment jobs and/or public service are some kind of "can't miss" fallback plan when/if you dinged at OCI by the biglaw shops. Or the especially naive idea that "midlaw" firms commonly hire first year associates and start them at 75 to 100 K.

Rather than blindly assume "it can't happen to me," the default "soul-searching" question on here should be "how will I handle it if it happens to me" re: doc review or some other miserable lawschool outcome.

Of course, I realize that's nearly impossible to do as none of you have experienced this "career" yet. But you should understand that the people here are not here by choice but out of pure financial necessity. Also understand that there are far, far more people doing this kind of work than you can imagine. As I said, this project alone is 150+ people just in the NYC location.

We are not allowed to speak to one another unless we are discussing the case. We cannot take cell phone calls in the caseroom or hallway, only outside the building. We receive no courtesy or professional respect whatsoever. For example, yesterday I woke up at 6 am, got into work at 8 am, and found a bunch of co-workers hanging out in the lobby. Turns out there was a late-nite email that cancelled the workday yesterday due to computer/server issues. As I don't have a phone with email capibility, I wasted nearly 2 hours commuting plus $20 in train fare, all to earn $0 for the day. Nice, huh?

Given the above, do you think the thousands of people grinding away on these projects would put up with this treatment if any better alternatives existed? Remember, every single person on this project is a graduate of an ABA lawschool and a member of the NY State Bar. Do you really believe that every single person on this gig is a complete and utter loser from a TTTT with a 2.1 GPA, who never had the idea to network, or open their own shop, or find a midlaw job, or work in a business or corporation?


The funny thing is that everyone on this project is in better shape than many of you will be once you get licensed. That's because for this project (like nearly every other posted nowadays), you must have 2+ years of e-discovery experience to get hired. Most of the decent agencies aren't even signing up recent grads anymore, since there are almost no "entry-level" doc review projects around anymore in NYC. (and no, your grades/school won't help- what they're looking for is exepriecne with the doc review software systems: Concordance, Ringtail, Summation, Relativity, etc). Clients have gotten very cheap and stingy, so they are not wiling to pay for an "extra" training day to get newbies up to speed on tech issues. They want people who know the software so that they can dive right into reading the docs and coding for substantive issues.

[minnbills]

areyouinsane was a poster, it's not an insult.

[JusticeHarlan]

Bro, are you areyouinsane?

WTF, why do you guys think everyone on doc review is "insane"? It seems like many on this board try to discredit the notion that doc review could ever "happen" to them, since they have some secret game plan that involves "working hard" and "networking," along with the completely ridiculous idea that governenment jobs and/or public service are some kind of "can't miss" fallback plan when/if you dinged at OCI by the biglaw shops. Or the especially naive idea that "midlaw" firms commonly hire first year associates and start them at 75 to 100 K.

Rather than blindly assume "it can't happen to me," the default "soul-searching" question on here should be "how will I handle it if it happens to me" re: doc review or some other miserable lawschool outcome.

Of course, I realize that's nearly impossible to do as none of you have experienced this "career" yet. But you should understand that the people here are not here by choice but out of pure financial necessity. Also understand that there are far, far more people doing this kind of work than you can imagine. As I said, this project alone is 150+ people just in the NYC location.

We are not allowed to speak to one another unless we are discussing the case. We cannot take cell phone calls in the caseroom or hallway, only outside the building. We receive no courtesy or professional respect whatsoever. For example, yesterday I woke up at 6 am, got into work at 8 am, and found a bunch of co-workers hanging out in the lobby. Turns out there was a late-nite email that cancelled the workday yesterday due to computer/server issues. As I don't have a phone with email capibility, I wasted nearly 2 hours commuting plus $20 in train fare, all to earn $0 for the day. Nice, huh?

Given the above, do you think the thousands of people grinding away on these projects would put up with this treatment if any better alternatives existed? Remember, every single person on this project is a graduate of an ABA lawschool and a member of the NY State Bar. Do you really believe that every single person on this gig is a complete and utter loser from a TTTT with a 2.1 GPA, who never had the idea to network, or open their own shop, or find a midlaw job, or work in a business or corporation?


The funny thing is that everyone on this project is in better shape than many of you will be once you get licensed. That's because for this project (like nearly every other posted nowadays), you must have 2+ years of e-discovery experience to get hired. Most of the decent agencies aren't even signing up recent grads anymore, since there are almost no "entry-level" doc review projects around anymore in NYC. (and no, your grades/school won't help- what they're looking for is exepriecne with the doc review software systems: Concordance, Ringtail, Summation, Relativity, etc). Clients have gotten very cheap and stingy, so they are not wiling to pay for an "extra" training day to get newbies up to speed on tech issues. They want people who know the software so that they can dive right into reading the docs and coding for substantive issues.

You used to be funnier.

[FeelTheHeat]

Bro, are you areyouinsane?

WTF, why do you guys think everyone on doc review is "insane"? It seems like many on this board try to discredit the notion that doc review could ever "happen" to them, since they have some secret game plan that involves "working hard" and "networking," along with the completely ridiculous idea that governenment jobs and/or public service are some kind of "can't miss" fallback plan when/if you dinged at OCI by the biglaw shops. Or the especially naive idea that "midlaw" firms commonly hire first year associates and start them at 75 to 100 K.

Rather than blindly assume "it can't happen to me," the default "soul-searching" question on here should be "how will I handle it if it happens to me" re: doc review or some other miserable lawschool outcome.

Of course, I realize that's nearly impossible to do as none of you have experienced this "career" yet. But you should understand that the people here are not here by choice but out of pure financial necessity. Also understand that there are far, far more people doing this kind of work than you can imagine. As I said, this project alone is 150+ people just in the NYC location.

We are not allowed to speak to one another unless we are discussing the case. We cannot take cell phone calls in the caseroom or hallway, only outside the building. We receive no courtesy or professional respect whatsoever. For example, yesterday I woke up at 6 am, got into work at 8 am, and found a bunch of co-workers hanging out in the lobby. Turns out there was a late-nite email that cancelled the workday yesterday due to computer/server issues. As I don't have a phone with email capibility, I wasted nearly 2 hours commuting plus $20 in train fare, all to earn $0 for the day. Nice, huh?

Given the above, do you think the thousands of people grinding away on these projects would put up with this treatment if any better alternatives existed? Remember, every single person on this project is a graduate of an ABA lawschool and a member of the NY State Bar. Do you really believe that every single person on this gig is a complete and utter loser from a TTTT with a 2.1 GPA, who never had the idea to network, or open their own shop, or find a midlaw job, or work in a business or corporation?


The funny thing is that everyone on this project is in better shape than many of you will be once you get licensed. That's because for this project (like nearly every other posted nowadays), you must have 2+ years of e-discovery experience to get hired. Most of the decent agencies aren't even signing up recent grads anymore, since there are almost no "entry-level" doc review projects around anymore in NYC. (and no, your grades/school won't help- what they're looking for is exepriecne with the doc review software systems: Concordance, Ringtail, Summation, Relativity, etc). Clients have gotten very cheap and stingy, so they are not wiling to pay for an "extra" training day to get newbies up to speed on tech issues. They want people who know the software so that they can dive right into reading the docs and coding for substantive issues.

[Blessedassurance]

1/3 of the NYU class is unemployed, with other NYU grads doing doc review? That sounds like nonsense to me.

Without providing any evidence to justify your claims, you sound like bitter trolls.

Why do you find this hard to believe? I actually know an NYU grad living at home with his parents (his dad owns a law firm). He actually got a job and got laid off during the bloodbath. Of course this is anecdotal and meaningless but there are countless others. Unemployed NYU grads are not going to rush unto the interwebs proclaiming the fact. Any informed consumer knows NYU's ranking means nothing, really. It is worse out there than most people can imagine.

Part of the problem is most people cannot believe it will happen to them. Snowflake syndrome, knowing a rich lawyer who graduated pre-ITE etc. You need MTal's kind of pessimism to starve the beast. It's a gamble and the gamble doesn't stop. You could get a 2L SA and get no-offered. You could get an offer and get laid off, so on and so forth. It's miserable.

[YourCaptain]

Just curious, but could you answer these questions for us? What law school did you attend and what was your approximate rank?

No problem: 2002 Brooklyn grad, top 1/3, secondary journal, dual NY/NJ admitted.

Hmm. So you went to a T-2 school in a city inflated with law schools (and better ones at that, i.e. NYU), decided paying sticker? close to sticker? enough to rack up 100k in debt? and are now complaining because you can't afford to live in said city where renting a broom closet is $1,000 a month? Cry me a river. Grow up.

@the comment about getting 200k in debt: why the fuck are you getting 200k in debt? I would never even CONSIDER a school that would require getting 200k in debt. I hear merit aid is hard to come by? Friend of mine last cycle got 20k/yr knocked off from a T-20 with a 167 and a 3.15 in a city where cost of living is dirt cheap.

It's GOOD these schools are getting called out for the shitholes they are. But there's a big difference between T-30 and Cooley. Oh, and just because you went to a T-30 doesn't automatically grant you a fat job either. So of course the bottom 5% are gonna have issues. Work hard. Make connections. Go to a good school. Get in the top %. Don't complain. Profit.

0L, stop trying to speak with authority on legal employment.

Yes, he made a terrible decision, but it is brutal out there. Most T30s are struggling to meet 50% employment, or even 30%

[ilovesf]

i i love this gif so much